ST vs. SW

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

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Post by SCRawl »

The Evil Shadow wrote:Oh I have read the main site. Well its just kinda wrong... I did find the "hate Mail" part amusing.
I'm glad you're here to tell us that it's wrong. You'll go on to provide examples, with evidence to back them up, of course.
The Evil Shadow wrote:You know calling calling people trektards and other negative names shows that all of you debate like five year olds.
Sticks and stones, etc. If you can't take being called names, don't come around here and start flinging shit.
The Evil Shadow wrote:I don't see a reason too since its what 10-20 vs 1.. thats sad so very sad considering i'm not trying.
Oh, believe me, it shows. If you're capable of doing better, I suggest you get on with it.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Evil Shadow wrote:I don't see a reason too since its what 10-20 vs 1.. thats sad so very sad considering i'm not trying.
It's "sad so very sad" that people are blowing you off as a dumbshit and you're not trying? How so? Isn't that the most obvious and reasonable reaction to a person who has now admitted he's put zero effort into his arguments?
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Post by General Zod »

The Evil Shadow wrote: You know calling calling people trektards and other negative names shows that all of you debate like five year olds.
A five year old would be able to learn how to use the goddamn quote function properly. You seem incapable of this.
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Post by rhoenix »

Let me get this straight, Evil Shadow - you register an account on someone else's forum, make a post in a public subforum any registered user can post within, sneeze up a very, very tired premise, and then whine when people eagerly jump you for it?

The very fact that you registered an account here and made the thread-starting post you did implies "Haw, look at me I are TUFF!" instead of doing what would follow your stated desire to debate Mike Wong directly, which you could have easily done by emailing him.

As for your whining about calling you a "trektard," you only reveal your ignorance in not reading the forum rules before you post.
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Post by DogsOfWar »

Guys like Shadow make me almost want to deny ever watching or even hearing about Star Trek, just because it is capable of producing such insecure morons with no life besides arguing for the ultimate superiority and omnipotence of Lord Trek, their god.
The Evil Shadow wrote:Tomorrow I might try harder, but i'm lazy.
It shows. Please do try harder, it would be more entertaining.

On a somewhat related note:
ArcturusMengsk wrote:To be fair, most of the things I've seen indicate to me that the strange anomaly seen at the end of The Empire Strikes Back is not a galaxy due to the speed of its rotation.
IIRC, there was a computer display in AOTC (when Obi-Wan was in the Jedi archives) showing the galaxy and a smaller galaxy-like cluster nearby, maybe it's the thing seen in TESB.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

One, ENABLE...yes ENABLE your BBC code you retard. I am tired of going into your posts to edit them, so people can understand it. This is a function you disabled for who knows what inane reason.

Two, "Mockery of stupid people". It does not give Carte Blanche for everyone but you certainly fit the bill with your inability to form a coherent arguement.
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Post by Chardok »

Evil, It's not 10-20 Vs. 1.

You are simply stating arguments that every single trekkie has stated before you, and each of your arguments have been refuted so many times that there are stickies in the forum and information on the main site specifically so bandwidth is not chewed up refuting them AGAIN. I will summarize for you...

SW "Lasers"

There is a commentary on the main site regarding this specifically. Lasers are beams, Turbolasers are NOT (See the bolts?). It is concievable that at one time, SW used lasers and the weapons used now are called turbolasers or blasters because they're...well, ultra-powerful "lasers" as far as laypeople are concerned.

A good analogy to this would be the fact that you and most other people see an aircraft at an airport and call it a "jet" when in fact it's the engines that are the jets, and even then, it may not be powered by a jet at all; it may be a turbofan (The difference would be a ROAR or a high-pitched whine combined with a ROAR). As far as you know or are concerned, however, they're all jets. There's no shame in that, you just don't KNOW any better. This is what is meant by calling it a "legacy" Designation.


Q who?

Look, every time Q has showed up in ST, it's because Q wanted to or was forced to by the continuum (SP?). There is absolutely ZERO evidence to show that Q would ever assist the federation in a war of any kind. Therefore to say that "Q would pwn the empire in a war with the ST-verse" Of course he would, he'd turn the Death-star into a giant orange if he wanted to, but there is NO evidence that he would WANT to, so you can't throw Q into a logical debate about SW vs. ST. Does that make sense?

To put that point into perspective, let's look at Enterprise; I think we can all agree that Archer and company sure could've used a hand there, but Q was nowhere to be found. Why was that, I wonder? By all rights, the Enterprise should have been FUCKED; and and they would've been, if not for intervention by what can only be described as astronomical luck, Archer's diplomatic skills, and the Andorians (Not to mention the Defecting Xindi) that they survived to stop the superweapon.

No Q.

I hope that helps a little, and I hope I didn't mutilate the points any to the real debaters here (I am not one)
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Post by Surlethe »

Evil Shadow, would you please construct a real argument instead of dipping, ducking, and weaving to avoid it? I'd really like to see what you have to say.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Ryushikaze wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:
Ted C wrote:If you apply your own policy to Star Trek, then Deep Space Nine and Voyager aren't canon. Gene Roddenberry once said "It's not Star Trek unless I say it's Star Trek," and he never gave that blessing to those shows.
Did Gene Roddenberry also say at one point that TOS wasn't canon any more, or was that just a rumour ?
He wrote in the TMP novel, from Kirk's POV that the original series was an aggrandized in universe television program of the adventures of the enterprise. Aside from that, I don't believe so.
Whoever that Paramount employee that Darkstar yelled at had said that Roddenberry had decided certain parts of TOS were no longer canon. I don't believe she ever elaborated on which parts, but it's easily inferred that it is the parts contradicted by the films or parts of TNG.
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Post by Darth Wong »

DogsOfWar wrote:IIRC, there was a computer display in AOTC (when Obi-Wan was in the Jedi archives) showing the galaxy and a smaller galaxy-like cluster nearby, maybe it's the thing seen in TESB.
It's still much too large to spin at the rate we saw in TESB. I kind of like the idea of running with the "no literature" idea and concluding that the fleet must have been tear-assing around it in a big circle at millions of light years per hour in order to make it appear from their perspective as if it was rotating quickly. If they're going to propose restricted canon rules (never mind the asinine act of pretending that anyone who uses different rules is somehow lying or breaking some cardinal rule), then why not take advantage of that?
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Post by Jericho Kross »

Is Evil Shadow even worth this amount of attention? He is clearly an ignorant trektard that simply can't imagine that star trek can lose. :roll:
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Post by Havok »

No he isn't. However, based on what I have read in the archives of the board's history, this level of "where angels fear to tread" Trekkie has become rare on SDN. Like GR said, he just wants to see how far he is going and willing to go. I think most of us are.
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Post by Lord Revan »

Jericho Kross wrote:Is Evil Shadow even worth this amount of attention? He is clearly an ignorant trektard that simply can't imagine that star trek can lose. :roll:
he's not probably not, but then we haven't true idiots to mock for a while.

which reminds I should add something meaninfull here so I won't become one idiots being mocked.

though there's not much to add really with 12 hours of SW, we more then enough evidence to busy the "arguments" here, though I'd like to hear his jusitfication to why Q would get involved.

Just for the record I've seen every but one of the TNG episodes (and the episode in question didn't involve Q anyway (The Chase)) and I've never seen a single episode that would imply that Q would save the federation.
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Post by PeZook »

It's funny how he does his best to debate everyone at once, and then whines that there's too many people for him to debate simultaneously.

If he wanted to debate Mike exclusively, why didn't he flat out say "I will not answer everybody's points, because I lack the time. Please, this was supposed to be a one-on-one debate thread."?

It's not like there were no mano-a-mano discussion here in the past. Of course, his arguments and delivery is shit, so it wouldn't be a very entertainig thread.
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Post by Surlethe »

Darth Wong wrote:It's still much too large to spin at the rate we saw in TESB. I kind of like the idea of running with the "no literature" idea and concluding that the fleet must have been tear-assing around it in a big circle at millions of light years per hour in order to make it appear from their perspective as if it was rotating quickly. If they're going to propose restricted canon rules (never mind the asinine act of pretending that anyone who uses different rules is somehow lying or breaking some cardinal rule), then why not take advantage of that?
If you do conclude the fleet must have been flying at millions of light years per hour, then doesn't it follow that Star Wars acceleration tech is orders of magnitude more powerful than previously suspected? To generate the centripetal force to keep them in a circular orbit with that speed would require nothing like we've ever seen.
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Post by bz249 »

Chardok wrote:

SW "Lasers"

There is a commentary on the main site regarding this specifically. Lasers are beams, Turbolasers are NOT (See the bolts?). It is concievable that at one time, SW used lasers and the weapons used now are called turbolasers or blasters because they're...well, ultra-powerful "lasers" as far as laypeople are concerned.

Isn't those bolts supposed to be a mere tracer which propagates on a (more or less) continous beam of an unknown type of neutral particle (which do not act like photons, so they are something else)? I knew that there are other theories including plasma packets, however AFAIK this is the relevant one. So if I remember correctly the bolts are merely to inform the gunners whether they hit the target or not.
On the other hand this will make no change in the fact that turbolasers are not lasers and have TT firepower.
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Post by Chardok »

bz249 wrote:
Chardok wrote:

SW "Lasers"

There is a commentary on the main site regarding this specifically. Lasers are beams, Turbolasers are NOT (See the bolts?). It is concievable that at one time, SW used lasers and the weapons used now are called turbolasers or blasters because they're...well, ultra-powerful "lasers" as far as laypeople are concerned.

Isn't those bolts supposed to be a mere tracer which propagates on a (more or less) continous beam of an unknown type of neutral particle (which do not act like photons, so they are something else)? I knew that there are other theories including plasma packets, however AFAIK this is the relevant one. So if I remember correctly the bolts are merely to inform the gunners whether they hit the target or not.
On the other hand this will make no change in the fact that turbolasers are not lasers and have TT firepower.
No, you remember correctly, But this guy...he's basically copy+pasting arguments that have been copy+pasted a hundred times before, so I deliberately oversimplified (Thinking that going the tracer route would probably confuse or scare him). If he wants to go as deep as the "Tracer", then I'll step out for good and let the actual debaters take over; for now, however, I'm pretty sure it's sufficient to show not what they *are* but precisely what they *aren't*.
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Post by Aratech »

Shadow, allow me to present you a categorical reasoning as to why Trek loses... and loses badly.

Ship/fleet wise

Firepower/Defense: Star Trek ships rely heavily upon fancy NDF/chain reaction weapons to achieve victory, though these are complemented by photorps, which IIRC, have been calced by Vivftp over at Space Battles as falling between 2-20 megatons on average. They usually engage opponents at ranges of no more than two to three kilometers, especially in large fleet battles. Their ships, with one notable exception, are notoriously fragile when fired upon. Notice Sacrifice of Angels and Tears of the Prophets in which Federation, Klingon, and Romulan ships were being riped apart by Jem'Haddar kamikaze strikes, Cardiassian weapons platforms, and falling to capital ship phaser/disruptor strikes after being hit three or four times (the 'Magellan' was destroyed rather spectacularly after taking just two). These shisp sport zero heavy armor plating and utlize frequency based shielding that leave them vulnerable for a split second in the oscillation, as can be observed by hull damage and exploding console even before the shield's crash.


Star Wars ships, by comparison, utilize brute force, direct energy weapons. It should be noted that while it has the term 'laser' in its name, a Turbolaser, is not, in fact, a laser, for a number of reasons (visible in a vacuum, the noticeable recoil to the guns, and the fact that the barrels have holes at the end, rather than lenses). We have observed the smallest of these weapons to be able to instantly vaporize a 40 meter wide asteroid, around 1-2 megatons worth of firepower. It should be noted that in Star Wars, the light turbo laser has pretty much just one function: point defense.... it is an anti-aircraft equivalent. Let that sit with your mind for just a second. Higher level weaponry ranges up into the triple digit terraton range, and have light minute engagement ranges. Obviously, there is no need to even begin to mention the Death Star(s) or any other Imperial super weapons, nor the fact that turbo lasers move significantly faster than phasers, giving the Empire another tactical edge in battle.

Defense wise, Star Wars ships are mobile fortresses, sporting heavy shielding that is able to take thier own level of firepower for several minutes before going down, and, most wisely, heavy armor plating to protect them in the event of shield overload. The most drastic example of this comes from Republic Commando in which the Acclamator class assault vessel, The Prosecutor, was subject to a multi-minute bombardment from a Trade Federation battlecruiser. The ship lost its engines, main computer systems, shield generators, hull integrity, atmosphere, and life support systems... and the ship was not only still intact, its reactor core still stable but it was still shooting back! And this was after two weeks of hellacious infighting between Clones, Trandoshian mercenaries, and batlte droids had ripped apart the ships interior. The best G-canon example of hull defensive protection comes from the Empire Strikes Back novelization, in which the Avenger (unshielded) plows straight through a number of asteroids and is not even damaged in its pursuit of the Millennium Falcon.

Ship Speed: Star Wars ships demonstrate significantly faster STL accelerations than their Trek counterparts, up to many thousands of G's worth, and while they may not be as maneuverable, their significantly larger weapon firing arcs make up for this. FTL, it goes without saying that Hyperdrive is faster than anything observed in Trek (high end examples include Maul going from Coruscant to Tatooine in less than twelve hours, and Obi Wan and Anakin rushing in from the outer rim to reach the battle of Coruscant in a matter of hours), with one or two exceptions, and it can be performed consistently.

Industrial output. Now here is the clincher. If memory serves correctly, it takes almost two years for the UFP to make a Galaxy class ship, pretty long considering how easily they cook off when they actually get in a fight. By comparrision.
Aratech wrote:


Going by onscreen evidence. If we assume that the DSII represents maximum Imperial production capacity we get the following.

Taking the deminsions of a Venator and scaling as is appropriate, we get an ISD's deminsions at roughly 1600x771x100 (Disregarding the bridge tower as actual hieght, since it is much taller than the rest of the ship). Multiplying by the formula for finding the area of a 3-D shape of that nature (1/2 BxHxH or 800X771x100) we get about 61,680,000 cubic meters of production space.

Now, the DSII was supposed to be 800KM in diameter. Figuring that for the volume of a sphere (R^3(4/3)xPI or 400000^3(4/3) X 3.14...) we get 2.68082573E17 cubic meters of production space. Now, multiply that by 60%(the commonly accepted percentage of completion) and you get 1.60849539E17 cubic meters.

Divide this by the afformentioned 61,680,000 meters and one gets 2,607,807,131 ISDs. Now then, divide that number by six months, or about 182.5 for the timespan and one gets... roughly 14,289,354.14 ISDs a day... or about 165.4 ISDs per second...
And if you go by Shadows of the Empire... all that was being supplied by a single private shipping company, and all of it in such discrete amounts that no one noticed.

No Trek power has ever demonstrated industrial capacity even approaching a minuscule drop in the bucket of that.

On the ground, it goes without saying that Star Wars, with its tanks, heavy assault craft, and sane weapons designs, will piss all over the redshirts... to say nothing of what will happen if Palpatine decides its a good time to fire back up a old project like say, the Dark Troopers.

Long story short, Trek loses, badly. Nothing wrong with that, its still one of my favorite sci-fi shows, even if it has gotten a little more retarded since two certain people took over.
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Post by lord Martiya »

The Evil Shadow wrote:Tomorrow I might try harder, but i'm lazy.
We have one thing in common. But only this. And because I'm lazy, I won't search all your arguments, and I recall only the 'Borg Transwarp' one.
I saw every episode of Voyager with the Borg, and I noted that yes, a transwarp conduit permit you to travel half galaxy in matter of few hours (my opinion based on the fact that Starfleet gathered 18-21 ships for the arrive of the USS Voyager in Endgame), and seems that there are various route that permit you to exit in various places while you go from a hub to another one, but they have a lot of drawbacks. First, you lack of flexibility because you can go only in prefixated routes (see Endgame. Second, every idiot with a subspace or gravimetric sensor can localize a conduit (see Child's Play and Descent in TNG) if he's in zone. Third, once you know the location of an opening, you can enter at your will if you are able to launch a tachyon pulse, on face of the Borgs (see Descent again). Fourth, if you know the location of an opening, you can also set a minefield, a trap like the Brunali one (see Child's Play again: Brunali had the habit of placing ships with anti-Borg children at the exit of a conduit, and every use of this tactic results in the death of the crew of the assimilator ship), or survey it and gather a fleet if the Borgs are in zone (see Endgame again. I'm wondering why Starfleet didn't place few stations and a minefield...). Fifth and last, the network is very vulnerable, because if you discover a hub you can destroy it with laughing efforts (see Endgame. Again), and perhaps the entire network (if the destruction of one gate and related conduit in the hub destroy the entire hub and its conduits, the destruction of the other gates may have destroyed ALL the hubs in one strike). Sadly, even the warp drive of the Phoenix seems to be better, on the profile of safety...
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Post by General Zod »

PeZook wrote:It's funny how he does his best to debate everyone at once, and then whines that there's too many people for him to debate simultaneously.

If he wanted to debate Mike exclusively, why didn't he flat out say "I will not answer everybody's points, because I lack the time. Please, this was supposed to be a one-on-one debate thread."?

It's not like there were no mano-a-mano discussion here in the past. Of course, his arguments and delivery is shit, so it wouldn't be a very entertainig thread.
He's an attention whore. If he wanted to debate Mike exclusively he could have used email like everyone else on the hate mail page.
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Post by ArcturusMengsk »

Excellent post, Aratech, but there's one thing I'm not entirely sure of:
Aratech wrote:... nor the fact that turbo lasers move significantly faster than phasers, giving the Empire another tactical edge in battle...
Is that so? I'm utterly ignorant of scientific principles, so my analysis is strictly qualitative, but I seem to recall phasers propagating at roughly the same speeds as the non-tracer portion of a turbolaser bolt (both seeming to be near-instantaneous to the naked eye). Please correct me If I'm wrong.
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Post by Aratech »

ArcturusMengsk wrote:Excellent post, Aratech, but there's one thing I'm not entirely sure of:
Aratech wrote:... nor the fact that turbo lasers move significantly faster than phasers, giving the Empire another tactical edge in battle...
Is that so? I'm utterly ignorant of scientific principles, so my analysis is strictly qualitative, but I seem to recall phasers propagating at roughly the same speeds as the non-tracer portion of a turbolaser bolt (both seeming to be near-instantaneous to the naked eye). Please correct me If I'm wrong.
Federation phasers are not instantaneous, though they do appear to propagate at several KMs per second, or rather, the omnidirectional 'beam' variety does. Pulsed shots, such as seen from the Defiant, their attack fighters, and other power ships such as the Klingons, however, only move at a few hundred meters per second, as can be seen in the battles that I cited. Though it is worth noting that at least in the case of the UFP, their pulsed shots appear to be much more powerful than the beam variety. A handful of these blasts from the Defiant or the Peregrine fights did as much, possibly more damage, than beam shots fired from Galaxy class ships, which are many times larger than either. Which means that either my observations are off, or the UFP leadership is once again failing to properly utilize a potentially devastating weapon for reasons I cannot fathom.



One other thing I did forget to point out, is perhaps the most dramatic on screen example of how Wars ships are more powerful than their Trek foes: Slave I. Jango's ship demonstrated the ability to fragment and vaporize asteroids with its cannons, vaporize a several hundred meter asteroid, and then his mines, which are gigaton level firecrackers.

And Slave I is a Firespray attack craft, the Star Wars equivalent of a police car. This proves that with minor modification, SW equivalent of Crown Victoria is capable of unleashing more firepower than an entire Federation attack fleet, or that Cardassian uber weapon. If a bounty hunter in a modified patrol craft can carry that, is it really so hard to imagine that mile long capital class vessels are capable of scouring worlds?
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Post by Darth Lucifer »

The Evil Shadow wrote:Oh I have read the main site. Well its just kinda wrong...
In what way? Be specific.
You know calling calling people trektards and other negative names shows that all of you debate like five year olds.
Yawn. Style over substance bullshit.
I don't see a reason too since its what 10-20 vs 1.. thats sad so very sad considering i'm not trying.


If you mastered the use of quote tags this wouldn't be an issue because you could respond to each individual person at your leisure.
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Post by Ender »

Surlethe wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's still much too large to spin at the rate we saw in TESB. I kind of like the idea of running with the "no literature" idea and concluding that the fleet must have been tear-assing around it in a big circle at millions of light years per hour in order to make it appear from their perspective as if it was rotating quickly. If they're going to propose restricted canon rules (never mind the asinine act of pretending that anyone who uses different rules is somehow lying or breaking some cardinal rule), then why not take advantage of that?
If you do conclude the fleet must have been flying at millions of light years per hour, then doesn't it follow that Star Wars acceleration tech is orders of magnitude more powerful than previously suspected? To generate the centripetal force to keep them in a circular orbit with that speed would require nothing like we've ever seen.
No, we've seen it before. They have hyperspace spy sats - probes that orbit a world while FLT and continiously monitor and datamine everything electronic on the world. They are really rare because once launched it is damn near impossible to catch it and retrieve the data though - being hard for the enemy to see also means it is hard for your allies to see.
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Solauren
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Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Post by Solauren »

Off topic - Question for the ESB end scence / rotaing galaxy.

Could that have been some kind of collapsed star or other space phenomina with a gas nebula around it that just happened to LOOK like a Galaxy?

On Topic - This 'Evil Shadow' reminds me of the kid that throws tantrums in class or other social events cause they arn't the centre of attention.
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