Trek ships that could stand up to Wars ships.

[Crossroads Inc.]

No no, not federation ships, im talking about ships encomposing the whole of the Trek universe...

Basiclly, with the recent "trek/wars galxy what if" threads, I've been wracking my brain to see if Trek has ever dreamed up ANY ship that could actually hold ground to Wars tech.

Not so much for any Trek vs Wars bussines, but really to answere the question, if you were forced to goto the Wars galaxy with a Trek ship, whats the best choice?

So far I can only think of two of the top of my head...
The Voth City Ship and the Think-Tank are two that might make it...

The "think tank" especially as I believe it is the only trek ship specficlly mentioned to be comprised of "neutronium" though as we all know, what that is in the Trek universe can be radiclly different then that of the Wars universe.

Either way. Ideas from others?

[lord Martiya]

The Doomsday Machine, with its hull composed in solid neutronium (it's the episode to state it) and its antiproton beam, and perhaps the Fesarius of the First Federation (one mile in diameter as stated from Spock (apparently 4 miles with visual inspection), mass beyond the Enterprise sensors' registring capability), V'Ger (an enormous possible planet killer), the Whale Probe of Star Trek IV (one other possible planet killer, lenght estimated in 70 km) and the 8472 bioships and planet killers (a planet killer ship with his 8 support ship can blow up a planet). I know only these.

[Ritterin Sophia]

8472 bioships and planet killers (a planet killer ship with his 8 support ship can blow up a planet).

Complete chain-reaction, and weak enough that Voyager can take a hit and keep on going, no way it's taking any SW capital ship.

[Ghost Rider]

The Doomsday Machine, with its hull composed in solid neutronium (it's the episode to state it) and its antiproton beam,

Which the entire thing was knocked out by an exploding warp core. And neutronium means technobabble metal...in other words nothing.

What stopped it is inferior to a patrol ship's firepower in SW.

and perhaps the Fesarius of the First Federation (one mile in diameter as stated from Spock (apparently 4 miles with visual inspection), mass beyond the Enterprise sensors' registring capability),

Completely unknown then.

V'Ger (an enormous possible planet killer),

So you have said firepower figures?

the Whale Probe of Star Trek IV (one other possible planet killer, lenght estimated in 70 km)

You have said figures on firepower and durability?

and the 8472 bioships and planet killers (a planet killer ship with his 8 support ship can blow up a planet). I know only these.

Which Voyager was able to resist. And given Federation craft's resilience is easily several orders of magnitude less then most Imperial Warships, this does not automatically give 8472 any SW crushing capability.

So two down, three completely up in the air.

[Starglider]

The Doomsday Machine, with its hull composed in solid neutronium (it's the episode to state it) and its antiproton beam

It can't be 'solid neutronium'. The thing did not have the gravity of a neutron star. That was dialouge - Spock was probably just reading a surface coating.

I like the Doomsday Machine and it's true that SW fans tend to brush it off too easily - 'oh it's obvious that hiding a bomb in an asteroid fused to go off just as it's eaten will kill it' - no it fucking isn't. However the relative trouble which the machine was having with two puny constitution class ships is not encouraging. It can slice up planets, yet the Enterprise's shields can resist its beams and several shots on the Constellation just made it a hulk, not vapor? I can only rationalise this at the machine using only the bare minimum of power it deems necessary to incapacitate the enemy, which I would have to call bad programming.

As for the whale probe, it only had two tricks that we saw - draining the power of nearby starships, which may or may not work on SW vessels that use an entirely different type of reactor and power distribution (no M/AM, no EPS conduits), and boiling some water in the oceans in a thoroughly unimpressive manner (compared to a Star Destroyer BDZ).

Thus I'd have to say that the only vessel that is a real, genuine threat to SW capships is V'Ger - and just possibly the Doomsday Machine if it was reprogrammed to display more tactical competence.

[lord Martiya]

X Ghost Rider: I'm limiting to say what I saw. The Doomsday Machine is capable to destroy a planet, and I didn't remember how they destroyed it. On it I was clearly wrong.
For the Fesarius, yes, it's completely unknown, and I stated it as an hypothesis.
For V'Ger, he obliterated K'Tinga-class cruisers and the Federal space station Epsilon IX with single hits, and prepared to destroy Earth surface. Actually, we didn't see his version of planet killing, but we have a lower limit (the space station), and apparently he didn't know the concept of bluff, and if this is right V'Ger can make a sort of BDZ.
For the Whale Probe, it's durability is unknown, but it's firepower is adequate to vaporize the oceans and it's COMMUNICATION SYSTEM disabled 8 (confirmed) ships, including a Miranda, two other Fed warships and two Klingon ships, deactivating their warp cores and fusion reactors.

8472 bioships and planet killers (a planet killer ship with his 8 support ship can blow up a planet).

Complete chain-reaction, and weak enough that Voyager can take a hit and keep on going, no way it's taking any SW capital ship.

OK, the standard bioship isn't sufficiently strong, but where you take the chain-reaction?

[Jaevric]

For V'Ger, he obliterated K'Tinga-class cruisers and the Federal space station Epsilon IX with single hits, and prepared to destroy Earth surface.

Doesn't mean it can stand up to Star Wars levels of firepower. Star Wars light turbolasers can one-shot Star Trek vessels. Star Wars heavy turbolasers can do considerably worse.

For the Whale Probe, it's durability is unknown, but it's firepower is adequate to vaporize the oceans and it's COMMUNICATION SYSTEM disabled 8 (confirmed) ships, including a Miranda, two other Fed warships and two Klingon ships, deactivating their warp cores and fusion reactors.

Demonstrate that this ability of the communication system to screw with the notoriously-poor computer security on board Star Trek vessels extends to Star Wars ships. Further, "vaporize the oceans" over how great a period of time? Because an Imperial Star Destroyer can, in approximately 1 hour, not only vaporize the oceans of an Earth-like planet but the top meter of soil.

OK, the standard bioship isn't sufficiently strong, but where you take the chain-reaction?

I never watched Voyager. Do we know the chain reaction would work on a Star Wars hull (much denser than mere rock)? How long did it take to work? How long-range was it? Could the bioships survive Star Wars weapons fire long enough to use the weapon?

[Batman]

For V'Ger, he obliterated K'Tinga-class cruisers and the Federal space station Epsilon IX with single hits,

Via some funky 'digitizing' technobabble effect the powe of which is completely undeterminable , and the E-nil refit's shields, which are millions of times less powerful than those of Imperial warships, SURVIVED one such hit,

and prepared to destroy Earth surface. Actually, we didn't see his version of planet killing, but we have a lower limit (the space station)

which was via technobabble, not brute force. Feel free to calculate the energy needed to do away with Epsilon 9 in that manner.

and apparently he didn't know the concept of bluff, and if this is right V'Ger can make a sort of BDZ.

IF and still no. It means it can SOMEHOW 'destroy' the Earth's surface. That doesn't require anywhere NEAR BDZ firepower especially if it uses that funky 'digitizing' weapon again.

For the Whale Probe, it's durability is unknown, but it's firepower is adequate to vaporize the oceans

Funny, I didn't see any ocean vapourisation in the movie. All we SAW it due was drain energy from surrounding starships and turn the weather really shitty.

and it's COMMUNICATION SYSTEM disabled 8 (confirmed) ships, including a Miranda, two other Fed warships and two Klingon ships, deactivating their warp cores and fusion reactors.

So it's really good at jamming and AQ computer security stinks, which isn't exactly news. This says what, exactly, about the Probe's firepower?

8472 bioships and planet killers (a planet killer ship with his 8 support ship can blow up a planet).

Complete chain-reaction, and weak enough that Voyager can take a hit and keep on going, no way it's taking any SW capital ship.

OK, the standard bioship isn't sufficiently strong, but where you take the chain-reaction?

That'd be the part where the bioship planetkill was completely incompatible with a brute force event.

[Jaevric]

Bah, screwed up my quote tags somehow.

[lord Martiya]

For V'Ger, he obliterated K'Tinga-class cruisers and the Federal space station Epsilon IX with single hits,

Via some funky 'digitizing' technobabble effect the powe of which is completely undeterminable , and the E-nil refit's shields, which are millions of times less powerful than those of Imperial warships, SURVIVED one such hit,

and prepared to destroy Earth surface. Actually, we didn't see his version of planet killing, but we have a lower limit (the space station)

which was via technobabble, not brute force. Feel free to calculate the energy needed to do away with Epsilon 9 in that manner.

and apparently he didn't know the concept of bluff, and if this is right V'Ger can make a sort of BDZ.

IF and still no. It means it can SOMEHOW 'destroy' the Earth's surface. That doesn't require anywhere NEAR BDZ firepower especially if it uses that funky 'digitizing' weapon again.

For the Whale Probe, it's durability is unknown, but it's firepower is adequate to vaporize the oceans

Funny, I didn't see any ocean vapourisation in the movie. All we SAW it due was drain energy from surrounding starships and turn the weather really shitty.

and it's COMMUNICATION SYSTEM disabled 8 (confirmed) ships, including a Miranda, two other Fed warships and two Klingon ships, deactivating their warp cores and fusion reactors.

So it's really good at jamming and AQ computer security stinks, which isn't exactly news. This says what, exactly, about the Probe's firepower?

Complete chain-reaction, and weak enough that Voyager can take a hit and keep on going, no way it's taking any SW capital ship.

OK, the standard bioship isn't sufficiently strong, but where you take the chain-reaction?

That'd be the part where the bioship planetkill was completely incompatible with a brute force event.

Describe, please.

[Batman]

OK, the standard bioship isn't sufficiently strong, but where you take the chain-reaction?

That'd be the part where the bioship planetkill was completely incompatible with a brute force event.

Describe, please.

When you hit a planet with enough energy to blow it to pieces it starts going to pieces IMMEDIATELY. It doesn't stay virtually untouched for several seconds and then suddenly goes boom.

[lord Martiya]

For what we know, it may be a sort of piercing beam that exploded into the planet.

[DogsOfWar]

The planet-killing beam was formed by focusing 8 (or possibly nine) standard 8472 energy beams together. Voyager survived a hit from one of these standard beams, and the strength of their shields is dozens of orders of magnitude lower than the energy needed to destroy a planet. Thus, unless species 8472 is able to magically pull extra energy from thin air, it could not have been a brute force attack, making it some kind of chain reaction or the like.

[Thag]

Funny, I didn't see any ocean vapourisation in the movie. All we SAW it due was drain energy from surrounding starships and turn the weather really shitty.

Just to nitpick a little, but while we don't see the vaporization taking place, it's listed among the things the president rattles off in his distress signal.

[Starglider]

Via some funky 'digitizing' technobabble effect the powe of which is completely undeterminable

It's 'some kind of plasma energy'. Any technobabble effect is in addition to the raw impact.

and the E-nil refit's shields, which are millions of times less powerful than those of Imperial warships, SURVIVED one such hit,

But Spock scans the glowing balls V'Ger was launching at a rate of one every few seconds at the end of the film and say 'they are thousands of times more powerful (than the one that hit us earlier)'. It is unclear whether this refers to the full devices as originally launched, or to the submunitions they split into (apparently nine each). The total firepower of each shot could easily be 50,000 times the firepower of the hit that took down the Enterprise's shields, itself equivalent to many photon torpedoes.

I suspect V'Ger could give an ISD a hard time.

Funny, I didn't see any ocean vapourisation in the movie.

It was in there; we saw sections of ocean surface flashing into steam. But they weren't very big sections. Maybe someone can do a calc working out how much energy it takes to vaporise enough water to give the whole planet 100% cloud cover, but it'll be several orders of magnitude less than a BDZ.

[Wyrm]

For what we know, it may be a sort of piercing beam that exploded into the planet.

No. A piercing beam would scatter the planet in a sort of donut shape, as the energy would have to first get through the outer layers to reach the center. Think about it.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Don't forget that at some point it was mentioned that V'ger was "generating an Energy field Greater than Earths Sun"

This by itself should give at least a lower limit of its energy capcity and generation.

Perosnally I have always been put off by the amount of V'ger "Minnimalization" as it seems some go out of thier way to make it as weak and impotant as possible.

[Starglider]

Don't forget that at some point it was mentioned that V'ger was "generating an Energy field Greater than Earths Sun"

Really? From the script:

Decker turning to Spock

DECKER
That measures twelve power?
Ten thousand starships couldn't
generate that much...

Earlier the commander of the Fed comms station says;

BRANCH
(from the viewer; checking console readings)
Enterprise... the Cloud is
definitely a powerfield of some
kind... Measures... My God!
Over 82 A.U.'s in diameter...
Must be something incredible
inside there generating it.
(looks up from console)
We're transmitting linguacode
friendship messages on all
frequencies. No response.

And of course in addition to the plasma ball weapon there's;

UHURA
(overlapping)
Urgent signal from Starfleet,
Captain!
(turns, shaken)
All Earth defense systems have
gone dead.

However I misremebered the dialogue and was off by an order of magnitude on the planetkilling plasma ball power:

McCOY
My God! They're the same kind
of things that destroyed the
Klingons, Epsilon Nine...

SPOCK
(interrupting; from science console)
These read as identical composition...
(turns to Kirk)
... however, Captain, they measure
several hundred times more powerful!

This does appear to refer to the submunitions though, not the initial bolts.

[Stark]

Doesn't 'several hundred times more powerful' than a shot that took down E-nil's shields put it at high hundreds of MT, at best (particularly if they're plasma weapons given ST shield weaknesses)? Rather than firepower, what are it's defensive abilities? What's to stop an Imperial force just blowing the shit out of it from across a system with hundreds of TT per ship? I don't remember if V'ger was engaging Earth from across the system.

Regarding the Doomsday Machine, it is no threat to anyone with bombs rated higher than 60ish MT. You know, like say supermaneuverable fighter missiles?

[lord Martiya]

For what we know, it may be a sort of piercing beam that exploded into the planet.

No. A piercing beam would scatter the planet in a sort of donut shape, as the energy would have to first get through the outer layers to reach the center. Think about it.

In WW2, impact from not-tracer piercing rounds of a fighter on another fighter is invisible to the shooter (heard from a survivor of Battle of Britain in a documentary of BBC). The planet killer beam isn't very large, and from that distance its piercing on the planet may be invisible, as those piercing rounds.

[DogsOfWar]

In WW2, impact from not-tracer piercing rounds of a fighter on another fighter is invisible to the shooter (heard from a survivor of Battle of Britain in a documentary of BBC). The planet killer beam isn't very large, and from that distance its piercing on the planet may be invisible, as those piercing rounds.

I think you missed something:

For what we know, it may be a sort of piercing beam that exploded into the planet.

No. A piercing beam would scatter the planet in a sort of donut shape, as the energy would have to first get through the outer layers to reach the center. Think about it.

Wyrm was saying what the explosion would look like, not the weapon impact.

[lord Martiya]

Whoops! Sorry, being Italian I have some issues in English language. And I have to resee the episode to answer, if I can.

[Starglider]

Doesn't 'several hundred times more powerful' than a shot that took down E-nil's shields put it at high hundreds of MT, at best (particularly if they're plasma weapons given ST shield weaknesses)?

'At best' for PTs is probably the TNG tech manual's estimate of ~50MT effective yield from a 1.5kg of antimatter, which would put the split plasma bolts at tens of gigatons and the unsplit bolts at hundreds of gigatons. Observed firing rate is once every few seconds, appearing from a trench like structure and being fired out between two prongs. These structures are repeated six times around V'Ger's central axis, so we might assign a generous upper limit by assuming all six could fire at once if necessary, putting out say two 250 GT bolts every second.

Pre-ICS (e.g. 2-20GT HTLs as estimated from BDZs), that might've been good enough to take down an ISD, but given the existence of 200 GT turbolasers on the Acclamator I imagine even the upper-end V'Ger is going to have a hard time taking down a troop transport. It should handily take down stuff like Nebulon Bs and Corellian Corvettes though.

Of course, a) the tech manual PT yield is highly dubious and b) TMP era phototorps probably have a much lower yield than TNG era ones anyway. If movie-era PTs are only hundreds of kilotons (why they even bother using antimatter for that I don't know), then the large blasts are indeed only in the gigaton class and V'Ger might well be outgunned by a SW Corvette. On the flip side, there was no indication that we were seeing anything like V'Ger's maximum output. It obviously used only the minimum necessary power to deal with the Klingons and the Enterprise, and its stated goal was to cleanse the surface of the earth of 'carbon units', not destroy the whole planet, as it appeared to have done to other worlds shown in holographic form earlier.

Rather than firepower, what are it's defensive abilities?

PTs fired at it just disappeared with no effect. It was using 10,000 times the max power output of the Enterprise-Nil just to generate the /cloud/, it must need much more than that just to move at warp speeds (and indeed transwarp speeds are implied by the length of the journey and the available time since the launch of the probe, though time travel is a possible alternate explanation). I would be very surprised if it did not have at least 100,000 times the shielding capabilty of the Enterprise-Nil.

Regarding the Doomsday Machine, it is no threat to anyone with bombs rated higher than 60ish MT. You know, like say supermaneuverable fighter missiles?

If it occurs to them to disguise them as consumable mass and set them to detonate just as they are entering the maw. If the doomsday machine had been better programmed it would've blased anything vaguely threatening to space dust instead of trying to eat it.

[Starglider]

Ack. Accidentally assumed that the Enterprise shields can be taken down by one PT above. The Undiscovered Country showed that it took more like 10 PTs, though the Enterprise was starting to suffer hull damage well before the shields finally collapsed.

That bumps the upper end observed firepower to 2.5TT a shot, which at 2 shots/second may actually give an ISD some trouble. The lower end firepower would be a 10 GT shot every few seconds, which is only enough to take out light patrol craft.

[Howedar]

Really? From the script:

Decker turning to Spock

DECKER
That measures twelve power?
Ten thousand starships couldn't
generate that much...

"It'd take a thousand ships with more firepower than I've..."

I wouldn't give Decker's comment here a whole lot of quantitative value.