John Norman (Worst Fantasy Morality)

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-01-12 02:36pm

yes, this is a carry-over from my rant in the Other Sci-Fi section. But before you move it, or chide me. I am arguing this on the basis of human Morality.

Gor is nothing but rape, enslavement, and Misogyny on an epic scale. It's only appeal is to early adolecent males (Who haven't had any yet), Stalkers and men who really hate women.

I read the books last when I was still in High School (Conforming as part of the Formermost group of fans), But as an adult I can find nothing artistically redeeming about the series, and consider it one of the worst if not the worst example of Fantasy Liturature.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-12 04:03pm

WTF? who publishes it?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-01-12 05:13pm

I think it was published by TOR for a while.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2003-01-12 08:47pm

Have you read Houseplants of Gor?

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-01-12 09:08pm

Raxmei wrote:Have you read Houseplants of Gor?

Wow. Unless I'm incorrectly guessing at the subtext there, I just lost all desire to ever get within thirty feet of a Gor book.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-12 10:19pm

Raxmei wrote:Have you read Houseplants of Gor?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

That's the best take on that entire waste of trees I've yet seen. Spares you from ever having to wade through 300+ pages of that drivel, stretched out into a 500 page novel with plagerised Howard/Burroughs runarounds as filler. Times twenty.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-12 10:26pm

. . .that's just weird. it's like something I'd write when tired and in an odd mood. if it's not satire; thats like the real book, then I will definitly avoid it. . .or perhaps read it for giggles.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-01-12 11:07pm

The entire Gor series is eiether taken as gospel by some , or for the rest of us it gives the whole world of Dominants and Submisseves a black eye.
Gor is without a doubt brutal , mysoginistic and extremely skewed and I as a Dom would be far happier if it had never been written. I ask any of you who have read it or heard about it not to judge the entire D/s community by this trash.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-12 11:42pm

I've got D/S friends and acquaintences, and trust me, none of them take John Norman as their guide to life. Mr. Norman would never make it in a normal, healthy D/S relationship.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-13 01:19am

Ok ... wtf was that link all about? Watered .. it was plant ... eh?

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-01-13 02:08am

Patrick Degan wrote:I've got D/S friends and acquaintences, and trust me, none of them take John Norman as their guide to life. Mr. Norman would never make it in a normal, healthy D/S relationship.

Same here. Gorean D/s is about as unhealthy a relationship as you can have in this lifestyle. For anyone interested in D/s style relationships, DO NOT take the Gor setting as any kind of basis for ANYTHING. Do research, talk to Doms and preferably, their Subs as well and see if its right for you.

Oh, and Vymple, the whole thing is a allegorical story about Dominance and Submission using plants rather than people.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-13 02:45am

*Having just looked it up*

ARGHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Fifth rate crap tripe based on false premises and pointless exchanges and a healthy dose of psuedoscience (Ten foot insects

)

ARGHHHHHH

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-13 03:20am

Vympiel and NecronLord: obviously, neither of you have actually read any of the Gor novels (lucky you) and naturally can't quite get the joke.

Just about each and every one of Mr. Norman's horribly verbose screeds essentially posits that women secretly wish to be raped into submission. His books all feature more than one repetition of the same scene where the captive puts her pride and will forward, is raped, whipped, branded with a hot iron, raped again, then given a lecture about the falsity of life in the world she came from, with its artificial doctrines of equality, and the simpler, more "honest" life of men and women in the mystical dominance/submission equation blah blah blah blahblahblahblahblah... then is raped into mind-blowing orgasmic bliss and afterward ultimately "realises" that it is her True Nature™ to know the ecstasies of a brutal life of enforced sex slavery which she was, of course, "born" for and happily grants Master body and soul forever and ever and ever and ever —even though he's saying that he might sell her for a keg of beer in the next village. Gag, puke.

Now imagine that little "plant" scene stretched out into multiple repetitions filling nearly half a book, and appearing more or less in the same pattern —even down to the same dialogue looping back on itself— throughout twenty books.

John Norman in a nutshell.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-01-13 03:32am

Patrick Degan wrote:Vympiel and NecronLord: obviously, neither of you have actually read any of the Gor novels (lucky you) and naturally can't quite get the joke.

Just about each and every one of Mr. Norman's horribly verbose screeds essentially posits that women secretly wish to be raped into submission. His books all feature more than one repetition of the same scene where the captive puts her pride and will forward, is raped, whipped, branded with a hot iron, raped again, then given a lecture about the falsity of life in the world she came from, with its artificial doctrines of equality, and the simpler, more "honest" life of men and women in the mystical dominance/submission equation blah blah blah blahblahblahblahblah... then is raped into mind-blowing orgasmic bliss and afterward ultimately "realises" that it is her True Nature™ to know the ecstasies of a brutal life of enforced sex slavery which she was, of course, "born" for and happily grants Master body and soul forever and ever and ever and ever —even though he's saying that he might sell her for a keg of beer in the next village. Gag, puke.

Now imagine that little "plant" scene stretched out into multiple repetitions filling nearly half a book, and appearing more or less in the same pattern —even down to the same dialogue looping back on itself— throughout twenty books.

John Norman in a nutshell.

I've actually heard that there are serious Goreans out there who actually practice that stuff in their relationships, and my opinion is that men who do that, and women who voluntarily get involved in it, should be dumped into the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (Considering we've already eliminated the Taliban - Darn).

I mean, seriously, a philosophy like that is dangerous. It basically implies that women are inferior, and men can do whatever the hell they want with them, and sure the people who believe it are probably already screwed up, but to have people reading that stuff and running around in our society? Or women who would presumably vote whichever way their Masters tell them?

It's rather troubling to think about. I actually equate Goreanism with Fascism; it is a seriously dangerous fantasy ideology. Obviously not on the same scale, but they're both defineable fantasy ideologies. (Though I understand the distinct differences between it and BDSM.)

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-13 03:41am

Patrick Degan wrote:Vympiel and NecronLord: obviously, neither of you have actually read any of the Gor novels (lucky you) and naturally can't quite get the joke.

Just about each and every one of Mr. Norman's horribly verbose screeds essentially posits that women secretly wish to be raped into submission. His books all feature more than one repetition of the same scene where the captive puts her pride and will forward, is raped, whipped, branded with a hot iron, raped again, then given a lecture about the falsity of life in the world she came from, with its artificial doctrines of equality, and the simpler, more "honest" life of men and women in the mystical dominance/submission equation blah blah blah blahblahblahblahblah... then is raped into mind-blowing orgasmic bliss and afterward ultimately "realises" that it is her True Nature™ to know the ecstasies of a brutal life of enforced sex slavery which she was, of course, "born" for and happily grants Master body and soul forever and ever and ever and ever —even though he's saying that he might sell her for a keg of beer in the next village. Gag, puke.

Now imagine that little "plant" scene stretched out into multiple repetitions filling nearly half a book, and appearing more or less in the same pattern —even down to the same dialogue looping back on itself— throughout twenty books.

John Norman in a nutshell.

That's exactly the explanation I was looking for. Yes, I haven't read them, nor do I wish too now

Thanks for the heads up!

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-13 04:19am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I mean, seriously, a philosophy like that is dangerous. It basically implies that women are inferior, and men can do whatever the hell they want with them

Actually, it's stating that outright. Norman doesn't pull his punches in terms of his ideology. The truly disturbing element of his writing is how repetitive his books are and his sex-slave "seduction" scenes are. This is a man who is very seriously into his bullshit. For example, had Mr. Norman himself written the houseplant watering scene we're all going over, it would have extended for page after page after page; the same exchanges and dialogue re-looping endlessly.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-01-13 05:49am

He's a sick fuck. Never even heard of those books before, but out of curiosity, when were they written? Must have been quite some time ago.

Sadly, that sort of mentality isn't altogether absent from even current fantasy. Terry Good kind is another one who has that women-as-sex-slaves approach in his books. Granted, in his books it's the bad guys who do it, but he dwells on it rather too closely, in addition to all the other shit he does. I completely agree with the thread that slammed him to the ground some time back. The first book was somewhat readable, though the theme was there even then, but from then on...urgh!

George R.R. Martin is another one who keeps bringing up rather graphical and disgusting things in his books, something they could well do without. He's got a good story, some good characters (though don't get me started on the female ones!), and a lot of potential, but there is also that unwholesome element that is completely unnecessary, or could at least be seriously toned down.

Edi

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-13 11:24am

Patrick Degan wrote:Vympiel and NecronLord: obviously, neither of you have actually read any of the Gor novels (lucky you) and naturally can't quite get the joke.

Just about each and every one of Mr. Norman's horribly verbose screeds essentially posits that women secretly wish to be raped into submission. His books all feature more than one repetition of the same scene where the captive puts her pride and will forward, is raped, whipped, branded with a hot iron, raped again, then given a lecture about the falsity of life in the world she came from, with its artificial doctrines of equality, and the simpler, more "honest" life of men and women in the mystical dominance/submission equation blah blah blah blahblahblahblahblah... then is raped into mind-blowing orgasmic bliss and afterward ultimately "realises" that it is her True Nature™ to know the ecstasies of a brutal life of enforced sex slavery which she was, of course, "born" for and happily grants Master body and soul forever and ever and ever and ever —even though he's saying that he might sell her for a keg of beer in the next village. Gag, puke.

Now imagine that little "plant" scene stretched out into multiple repetitions filling nearly half a book, and appearing more or less in the same pattern —even down to the same dialogue looping back on itself— throughout twenty books.

John Norman in a nutshell.

Actually I had just read the first few chapters (supplied illegally on a fan site) That was the reaction to the real shit, not the plant thing.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-01-13 04:58pm

I was at a convention in Dublin, Ireland roughly ten years ago, which had the writer Anne McCaffrey as a guest. She spoke on the subject of women in sci-fi/fantasy literature, and naturally enough, John Norman and the Gor books came up. She waved him off and said: "He doesn't bother me. You've got to remember, the man taught at an all girls boarding school for years. It's no wonder his fantasy life came out like that."

Imagine being constantly surrounded by all that jailbait.

I only hope he never actually attempted to put any of his ideas into practice at that school.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-01-13 06:04pm

Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to to avoid this tripe in the future.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2003-01-13 06:08pm

Regarding morality in sci-fi and fantasy in general, I don't think there's anything to be bothered about...after all, we all love the Empire, but it isn't exactly the most moral government ever is it?

But after reading that plant thing...*shudder*

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-13 07:36pm

Perinquus wrote:I was at a convention in Dublin, Ireland roughly ten years ago, which had the writer Anne McCaffrey as a guest.

You lucky stiff! She, David Weber, and Elizabeth Moon are the three authors I most want to meet (though I do have an autographed copy of Sporting Chance).

She spoke on the subject of women in sci-fi/fantasy literature, and naturally enough, John Norman and the Gor books came up. She waved him off and said: "He doesn't bother me. You've got to remember, the man taught at an all girls boarding school for years. It's no wonder his fantasy life came out like that."

That's interesting.

Imagine being constantly surrounded by all that jailbait. I only hope he never actually attempted to put any of his ideas into practice at that school.

Gah...the Catholic Priest of science fiction (except for the gender he tries to force into submission...grant me some artistic license). I tried to read one of the books once. The level of literary sophistication was lower than Dr. Seuss, and the plot was worse than the stories of most middle school literary magazine stories.

Biddybot · Post by **Biddybot** » 2003-01-13 07:40pm

Heh heh, that plant riff was pretty funny. Sounds exactly like the formulaic writing I remember...

As I mentioned in another post, I read a couple of the Gor books years ago. The only thing I personally found offensive about them was that they were boring and repetitive. As for content, it was just a low-grade version of the same smut you found (and probably still find) in the readers' letters sections in the cheaper skin rags of the day...spiced up with an exotic setting. Just really juvenile and surprisingly unimaginative stuff IMO and failed utterly to provide this DOB with any kind of a buzz, so it wasn't even good smut in the end, let alone good fantasy.

The series did spawn at least one rather entertaining schlocky movie, however.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-01-13 08:42pm

One of Anne McCaffery's first books was about the position of women in SciFi. She's just not doing anything interesting anymore with the repetitive Pern stuff, but still she's got the story done with at least(one can hope). I really hope she tries some new direction, perhaps into better 'space' context or a techno.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-13 09:29pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:One of Anne McCaffery's first books was about the position of women in SciFi. She's just not doing anything interesting anymore with the repetitive Pern stuff, but still she's got the story done with at least(one can hope). I really hope she tries some new direction, perhaps into better 'space' context or a techno.

I'd like to see a book between Pegasus in Space and The Rowan, to finally connect the two sagas together. More brainships would be good, too (Tia is still one of my favorite sci-fi heroines of all time).

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John Norman (Worst Fantasy Morality)

John Norman (Worst Fantasy Morality)

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