Zerg vs. Skynet

[brianeyci]

FOG3, who are you calling a fanboy? Why the fuck does it matter if it's a Reaver or a Dragoon, it's still a gage of their firepower and I believe somebody has actually scaled and calculated it before. Why the fuck does that missile mean the Protoss don't have better, when they've canonically BDZ'ed a planet? Why the fuck isn't the Amerigo scene enough, and why the fuck can't soldiers who are freaking out spray and pray? It sounds like you're the kind of guy who watches Cameron's Aliens and goes, soldiers would not freak out.

Again it all depends on the assumptions. You're making some huge assumptions, especially about the Zerg being unable to take out a Hummer just because they used that bait tactic. I can think of many reasons... like oh I don't know... they want live captives. If we assume .22 it's going to be a lot different than if we assume 7.62. But at the same time the bullshit goes both ways: Skynet is not an extension of the United States military or the United States itself and doesn't have all the combined arms forces at its disposal. It does not have aircraft carriers full of F-22's ready to bomb Zerg bases, it does not have access to strategic nuclear weapons which were presumably all used in the initial volley (and even if it did Skynet refrained from nuking Connor). What it has are dropships which fly and... Terminators. Basically heavy infantry, very expensive heavy infantry which while proof against small arms can be disabled by high explosives. With maybe some Hunter Killer tanks as support. Most importantly, it does not have the logistics to mount extended campaigns. The Zerg could move to a different part of the planet and set up orbital bombardment, and it would be all over.

[brianeyci]

ghetto edit: Oh by the way, "everybody in that game is a moron" compared to what? Skynet letting resistance fighters use its most powerful strategic weapon? Or compared to the current United States military and its administration of Iraq? I can totally see President Bush and his people fucking up in Starcraft even more than the Confederacy. Everything was plausible, from the Terrans not caring about backwater worlds getting invaded until it was too late, to bureaucrats looking after their own skin and not caring about the common man, to Aldaris's religious frenzy and the Protoss civil war. I don't know your point in bringing up "everybody was a moron" in that game, but if it's to say that the Confederacy was so moronic that we assume their standing army was of zero quality and entirely conscript and their weapons like waterguns, then you're making way too many assumptions about what is supposed to be an alternate brutal future full of powerful weapons.

[Peptuck]

If you want to claim it's worthwhile to sacrifice one Zergling to take out what amounts to an unarmed Hummer and two idiots be my guest. That just establishes that they can't take out an unarmed Hummer at any range, unlike a certain computer's minions.

Do you not even understand the basic concept of silent takedown of sentries? That is exactly what that scene was: the elimination of a patrol without allowing them to call for help or otherwise alert the other Terrans. If they had attacked the vehicle with what they had available (Zerglings and Hydralisks) then there's a good chance the two blithering idiots would have been able to call in the attack or at least get a transmission through, which would have alerted everyone that the Zerg were that far out. Instead, the Zerg sacraficed one of their countless Zerglings to lure the two patrolling soldiers out of their vehicle and kill them where they were vulnerable and couldn't call for help, thus eliminating a recon patrol and further blinding the Terrans to their presence.

[NecronLord]

There is a question buried in here though. Does Skynet have interplanetary capability? It likely wouldn't take it too long to set it up, but does it have any infrastructure currently?

Not in the canon. In the books by Russel Blackford, it plans to use the Time Displacement Equipment to send a T-XA with a very basic copy of its personality to Mars, or some other planet - relativistically speaking, 45 years translates to 45 light years, after all.


Now... Brian, you're making an usupported claim on the nukes. Why doesn't it fire them off at Connor? It doesn't magically know where he is. That's the same reason it doesn't converge all its available forces on him every time he so much as goes out.

What's more, Skynet does have things beyond HK tanks, terminators and HK heavy aircraft. I even pointed them out, both James Cameron creations, with goddamn pictures on the previous page. Skynet has an entire model of dogbot-scale HK known as the silverfish in mass production, and gun drones that resemble those of the Tau, which can be delivered for building clearance by air-HKs. Cameron's not a moron, he's quite aware that Skynet ought to be building expendable units for its main line combat, too.

You're making the call that Skynet never used biological, chemical or nuclear weapons, based on about fifteen minutes or less of Future War footage. I could show you fifteen minutes of (albiet 'staged recreation') WW2 footage of the Red Army planting their flag over the Reichstag, in which you wouldn't see a tank. From that, would you conclude that Zhukov's third shock army didn't have any tanks? Or that no one had any gas masks - even though they're not visible or being worn - during the war? Or that there were no nuclear weapons used? And no aircraft?

Repeat this 'til you learn it, Brian; Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absense - there will be a test. We can say what Skynet definately does have from those scenes. We cannot say what it does not have.

Canonically, there's fuck all to say whether Skynet used NBC or not. In the novels, there's things saying it did - specifically, the Allston novels have the Resistance being completely obsessed with chemical protection earlier in that timeline's war, because it was a favored tactic of Skynet. The Sterling ones have the resistance using a nuke, and Skynet deciding to retain some for later use.

Skynet letting resistance fighters use its most powerful strategic weapon?

Which in the canon, they only got hold of when Skynet was dead and in the books (and the T3 novel) is even invented before Skynet in some timelines, hence why there are facilities beyond Skynet's control. Assuming you mean the Time Displacement Equipment at any rate.

you're making way too many assumptions about what is supposed to be an alternate brutal future full of powerful weapons.

GTFO. This is SDN. Authorial intention with regard to technical aspects of sci-fi means jack. By that standard, TNG+ Klingons are a tremendously powerful and capable infantry force with a viable doctrine and effective weapons.


Skynet still can't win, poor thing, unless it manages to nuke them immediately, before they can dig in and start breeding (though that may not be all its cracked up to be, some of the smaller broods apparently numbered in the thousands) but what you're saying about Skynet is unjustified.

[brianeyci]

You can fuck off NecronLord. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the burden of proof is still on the other side to suggest Skynet would and could do the things they're suggesting. Are we reading the same thread? This is the same thread that has suggested Skynet destroy all the biomass of the Earth, or make 100 megaton groundburst nukes. If we took your approach to analyzing science fiction, Star Trek could win so much shit just by making 100 megaton groundburst nukes which nobody ever disputes the Federation can make. I am not making a claim. I'm responding to other people's claims that Skynet would do this or would do that. First strike capability is what I'm getting at with the aircraft carriers, a direct response to the idea Skynet can destroy them before they set up a colony somewhere, because last I checked first strike required power projection. In short we're agreeing about the outcome, just that you being NecronNitpick have to argue.

As for authorial intent, it does mean shit on SDN. I'm sure you've read the main site before, but DW does list different methods. When it means nothing is when it's contradicted by on screen evidence. Klingons are not an elite force because we see them being morons. It is very safe to say that the creators of Starcraft do not want their rifles shooting like waterguns, and therefore they are actual weapons and not fake. So the Zerg carapace is at least as good as civilian body armor, but more likely as good as the best interceptors with bonemass serving in place of ceramic plates. I don't see anything contradicting Terran rifles as good as modern day rifles. We actually see Klingon mortars sucking balls, we see Klingons charge in like morons, and we see their piss poor infantry tactics. On the contrary, it all depends on the assumptions you take, and if you want to be harsh on the Confederacy then be equally strict with Skynet.

As for the whole of the Terminator canon, I don't know what to say except I was responding to the claim that somehow the Confederacy's stupidity was relevant at all to its technical abilities. Whether they got a hold of TDE when Skynet was dead is irrelevant -- the resistance fighters thought it prudent to blow up the TDE after they sent Reese through. So in other words there was a serious threat of recapture, and the whole thing didn't go to shit when Skynet was killed. Do you consider T3 canon, and think that Skynet can't be ever killed by the way? It still doesn't answer the question of why Skynet allowed them to use the TDE at all. I don't see your point in mentioning the other TDE unless you dispute that the resistance fighters actually used Skynet's TDE.

[NecronLord]

You can fuck off NecronLord. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the burden of proof is still on the other side to suggest Skynet would and could do the things they're suggesting. Are we reading the same thread? This is the same thread that has suggested Skynet destroy all the biomass of the Earth, or make 100 megaton groundburst nukes.

So attack Starglider's stupid ideas about cobalt bombs, don't make rediculous claims about Skynet. Attack the claims about Skynet being rapidly able to assemble and deploy large numbers of motherfucking Tsar Bombas.

Don't forget to point out that Zerg thrive on worlds with no appreciable biomass - they seem to eat those crystals, and consume Vespene gas, but beyond that, in game, they require nothing else. More importantly, in the plot of the games, they have no difficulty thriving in hostile enviroments, from deserts to blasted nuclear wastes to extremely volcanically active areas. Like most bio-wank critters, it makes not a whit of sense, but it's apparently what they do.

If we took your approach to analyzing science fiction, Star Trek could win so much shit just by making 100 megaton groundburst nukes which nobody ever disputes the Federation can make.

Uhuh.

I am not making a claim. I'm responding to other people's claims that Skynet would do this or would do that.

You claim...

What it has are dropships which fly and... Terminators. [...] With maybe some Hunter Killer tanks as support. Most importantly, it does not have the logistics to mount extended campaigns.

This is incorrect. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time I've had to lecture you (or it might have been DEATH, it's hard to tell) on this topic. Don't make shit up. It might be nice rhetoric, but it's not valid. This is particularly stupid, given that you don't even need to do that. There's no evidence that Skynet can stop a well provisioned million critter army doing precisely what it likes. Nor can it necesserily eliminate small intrusions - although it might be able to sort this out if it responds quickly enough.

First strike capability is what I'm getting at with the aircraft carriers, a direct response to the idea Skynet can destroy them before they set up a colony somewhere, because last I checked first strike required power projection. In short we're agreeing about the outcome, just that you being NecronNitpick have to argue.

Ah. A return of your little nickname for me. Charmed. Fortunately, you can't just dismiss things with catchy nicknames, or the 'Wong is Wrong' trolls would have dominated all their arguments in SWvST...

As for authorial intent, it does mean shit on SDN. I'm sure you've read the main site before, but DW does list different methods.

And all vs debates here are done under the presumption that actual evidence is what matters. Authorial Intent counts in some circumstances - "Kosh did not go down alone, and made a fight of it" - but falling back on 'I guess Starcraft's makers thought the guns were powerful' is rather like the guy who recently said that any 'godlike' alien could steamroll the Galactic Empire. It's a subjective assessment. How powerful are the guns? - As a matter of fact, there's speculative momentum an KE already calculated from the cinematics, if you care to look.

And that's assuming you're Brian, Psicop, who can read their minds. Do you actually have a source for this 'they're meant to be powerful' stuff? Then you can elaborate on what powerful means to them, with numbers...

When it means nothing is when it's contradicted by on screen evidence.

Klingons are not an elite force because we see them being morons. It is very safe to say that the creators of Starcraft do not want their rifles shooting like waterguns, and therefore they are actual weapons and not fake.

As a matter of fact, the manual and game (it says they're gauss guns, but that's not how they behave in game or cinematic) descriptions of those rifles have been thoroughly debunked. The intent is for them to be tremendously powerful gauss rifles. They're meant to be ~8mm rounds at hypersonic speeds. Archive thread for your reading enjoyment. The authors have told us what those rifles are meant to do - then they've made a product that utterly contradicts it. In this case the 'authorial intent' isn't just trumped by the quantifiable evidence, it's crushed. So unless you can get something from Blizzard saying the Brood War cinematic is some kind of blooper, their intent when they made it doesn't count for much.

As for the whole of the Terminator canon, I don't know what to say except I was responding to the claim that somehow the Confederacy's stupidity was relevant at all to its technical abilities. Whether they got a hold of TDE when Skynet was dead is irrelevant -- the resistance fighters thought it prudent to blow up the TDE after they sent Reese through.

Or that's what they told him. They obviously didn't, given T2.

So in other words there was a serious threat of recapture,

Or they didn't want to open the door to history being rewritten every week.

and the whole thing didn't go to shit when Skynet was killed. Do you consider T3 canon, and think that Skynet can't be ever killed by the way?

The canon is a snarl of contradictions. Especially given the current liscence holders (the Sarah Connor Chronicles, or whatever) are doing their best to contradict T3 in every way.

Incidentally, it's the novel that has it that Skynet is going strong. T3 the movie doesn't specify. Merely that Ahnuld3 killed Connor.

It still doesn't answer the question of why Skynet allowed them to use the TDE at all. I don't see your point in mentioning the other TDE unless you dispute that the resistance fighters actually used Skynet's TDE.

Aside from Terminator, and Terminator 2: Judgement Day almost every product contradicts the others.

• In T1 & T2, Skynet was destroyed, and its Time Displacement Equipment captured.
• In T3, no information is really given.
• In the new series, god knows, I've not watched it.
• In the Sterling Books, Skynet is destroyed and its Time Displacement Equipment captured.
• In the novellisation of T3, and the Allston books, the Time Displacement Equipment was developed by the United States, and while Skynet has its own set, the Resistance is also aware of one, which they use sparingly to avoid Skynet noticing it.
• In the Russel Blackford Books (and another one set in the same continuity, if such a word applies), there's multiple timelines, and the Time Displacement Equipment was originally developed by someone called Rosanna Monk, who worked for Cyberdyne.

I don't know about the other ride, games, comics, and various other, also contradictory, products.

[NecronLord]

Ooh. On a related topic, lookie what I found. A rehersal for T2-3D on Youtube. Obviously, it's a very silly plot, and looks even sillier in a poor recording without the 3D, but if one's willing to take spurious technical details... Mini-killers, and a nice calcable example of a Phased Plasma Rifle blasting a foot square concrete pillar into two - actually blasting a hole through it, if I'm not mistaken.

From that, those guns are about equal to Han Solo's blaster, on maximum charge.

[brianeyci]

Hm, well maybe the nickname was unwarranted. Sorry NecronLord, I won't call you that again.

You're right, I should have directly replied to the Tsar Bomb claim. I really don't like quoting other people's posts unless I have to, as it chops up their post and makes it look... unattractive.

At any rate, you're right about the 8 mm hypersonic rounds. The thing is I don't really consider the manual canon, or anything in Starcraft canon except the cinematics, which on hindsight is pretty fucking stupid.

I do concede that Skynet would put up a good showing against the Zerg. The first thing I thought of with plasma was a shit weapon, splashing some hot gas on someone, and I thought of the minigun and how the bullets had to be tiny just for the Terminator to even hold it. But the power of those weapons is undeniable, and a single Terminator could probably annihilate hundreds of Zerg. Holy fuck.

*Boom*

"Excellent."

[NecronLord]

Can't blame you for thinking they're weak; T1 describes them as 'forty watt range' after all But yes. The plasma guns are pretty powerful, observe T3, where one shot from one sends the T-850 shooting across a car park, through at least two walls, and burns a hole in him to boot. That said, the TXs is presumably run off her (also, presumably quite large) main reactor, and has a significant charge up time.

Sterling had them as 40Mw which seems consistant with powerful single shots, or less hefty, single-figure megajoule - kilojoule semi automatic bursts (much better for maiming and killing fleshy humans) as in the mini-hunters in that clip. Quite harmless, to a terminator, but still likely to kill humans.

They have some interesting behaviours too. In the Future War intro to T2, they sometimes appear to travel in straight lines, like generic blaster type weapons, and at other times, appear to curve in ballistic arcs over really short distances, like some kind of grenade launcher.

I still doubt Skynet is up to this task, though. The Zerg appear to be able to increase their numbers quite rapidly, wheras Skynet presumably can't put more units in the field than the Resistance, who have an upper limit population of about three to four billion.

Poor Skynet (AIs that build impressively engineered robots, bent on exterminating humanity, are closer to my heart than biowank critters that swarm in great numbers, bent on exterminating humanity )

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Honestly, I prefer the "Skynet is suffering from HAL syndrome," than "Skynet is a malevolent intelligence that simply decided to eradicate humanity." It's actions line up far better that way. Including the little innovation or optimization it supposedly put into it's non-directly military assets.


But I agree with ya, Robots > Biowank. (Although an ultimate biowank showdown would probably be more interesting than the same thing with Robots.)

[NecronLord]

Mmm. Well, the original timeline had it that Skynet only turned hostile when they tried to kill it. In T3, it seems to just be a psychopath.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Mmm. Well, the original timeline had it that Skynet only turned hostile when they tried to kill it. In T3, it seems to just be a psychopath.

Like I said, it's actions line up better. Obviously if it was shut off it couldn't complete it's prime directive.

Plus, last I heard, most fans wanted to pretend that everything after T2 didn't exist.

[NecronLord]

Mmm. Nothing's as good as the first two, no. Interesting, but not nearly as well written.

[NeoGoomba]

Thats one of the reasons I liked the "Dawn of Fate" plot so much. It came out before T3, so it adhered very close to the first two movies. Skynet only turned to the time displacement machine as its saving throw after TechCom gutted its NORAD facility, which it had transformed into its main core. And while there were an increasing number of T-800's deployed, there were only 3 (I think) effective infiltrators used, all based off the encounter in Reese's flashback from T1. It showed Skynet using a massive amount of those floating disks as recon, usually before the T-units would show up.

Sadly the game itself wasn't all that great, the plot tie-ins to T1 and T2 were great.

[FOG3]

FOG3, who are you calling a fanboy? Why the fuck does it matter if it's a Reaver or a Dragoon

I will call you on calling a magazine a clip, boy! Now if you're done whinny butting on the fact DEATH can't keep his crap straight drop and give me 50!

You want to know why everyone in the game is a moron related to the Zerg victories, well let's see:
In the Original
-The Confederacy losses to them because they not only ignore the threat they represent, but purposefully secede worlds to them.
-The Terran Dominion is pretty much ditto.
-The Protoss spend almost the entire game with their thumbs up their butts chasing Tassadar around and virtually ignoring the Zerg even when they land on Aiur. It's explicitly said they diverted the majority of their forces from taking on the Zerg to hunt the heretic after the Zerg made landfall.
-The Protoss for the most part flat out ignore the Terrans.

In the Brood Wars
-The UED Takes control of the Overmind and Zerg without sufficient safeguards allowing them to thrive.
-The Terran Dominion and Protoss make a devil's bargain with Kerrigan furthering the Zerg's growth.

By all means show how they did anything that wasn't the equivalent of putting an auto with a round in the chamber up to their head and pulling the trigger in regards to the Zerg.

If you want to claim it's worthwhile to sacrifice one Zergling to take out what amounts to an unarmed Hummer and two idiots be my guest. That just establishes that they can't take out an unarmed Hummer at any range, unlike a certain computer's minions.

Do you not even understand the basic concept of silent takedown of sentries? That is exactly what that scene was: the elimination of a patrol without allowing them to call for help or otherwise alert the other Terrans. If they had attacked the vehicle with what they had available (Zerglings and Hydralisks) then there's a good chance the two blithering idiots would have been able to call in the attack or at least get a transmission through, which would have alerted everyone that the Zerg were that far out. Instead, the Zerg sacraficed one of their countless Zerglings to lure the two patrolling soldiers out of their vehicle and kill them where they were vulnerable and couldn't call for help, thus eliminating a recon patrol and further blinding the Terrans to their presence.

So the solution is to:
1) Somehow intentionally get a Zergling in the path of the vehicle.
2) Pray the blithering idiots won't call in something they clearly see they hit, when they would effectively report a surprise attack by the same forces.
3) Pray the blithering idiots are stupid enough to even bother to leave the vehicle, especially before reporting in.

Yeah, I'm really the one who isn't thinking stuff through here. Fanboys, you have to hate them. You have any other high handed poorly though out garbage for me to take out?

[FOG3]

You know what I'll take on another one for free.

I see you boys like to throw around the term BDZ with the Protoss bombardments of Chau Sara, Mar Sara, and Tarsonis. If that's the case why does Arcturus Mensk order you and Kerrigan to hold off the Protoss to allow for the Zerg to finish the job, because if the Protoss aren't slowed down the Confederates might escape/survive in sufficient force to be a threat? If The Protoss bombardment is so badass, why wouldn't the Protoss more then finish the job themselves?

[Andrew_Fireborn]

True enough.

Though the Protoss had a general superiority complex going on, even after getting booted of their planet they were still struggling with it.

IIRC, most of the Confederacy didn't know the Zerg were anything other than strange and dangerous animals. Until the shit hit the fan. As for the TD... Their leader had the same ego trip the UED did, thinking he could use the Zerg. (Rather like Wayland Yuntai there... Suppose there's a chance Blizzard bit on more than WH40k in making SC.) Possibly continuing to tell the populace at large that the Zerg were mindless fauna rather than a xenomophic threat. Forget Minsk's exact working of the speech he gives, and with a person like that, phrasing is important.

As far as the pact against the UED... Meh, that's the whole "Demon you know..." fallicy. And really just lazy writing on Blizzards part. Probably because they wanted a classic trillogy set up, with everything going to shit in the second chapter. (And they're only just getting around to finishing the thing...)

[brianeyci]

FOG3, you throw around the word "fanboy" like it's some truism. First of all there's a pretty fucking good reason to call it Reaver shots -- they look like Reaver shots from the game and sound like them you dickass. Plus IIRC we never actually see the Dragoons shooting, only slow moving projectiles flying in from afar between Dragoons. So it's entirely possible the Dragoons were not shooting at all and relying on their artillery, Reavers, which we didn't see. Take your head out of your ass. Ooooohhh so Death bashing eh. I don't know Death, but just because it's Death doesn't mean you can say bullshit.

As for the Zergling vehicle, it proves nothing goalpost shifting turd. You said because they used bad tactics (which you claim to be a bad tactic despite many reasons to lure people out of the vehicle such as live capture) indicates the Zerg cannot destroy an unarmored hummer. That is total bullshit and now you're shifting the goal post.

What's the point of talking like an army dude? Is that your way of saying to me that I'm an army wanker? "Everybody is a retard" in that game compared to what I ask again? You say they're retards, and so fucking what? Who the fuck cares? It's entirely believable and is not the same as putting a gun up to your head and shooting yourself. It's as if you don't see how stupid and bureaucratic real life governments and militaries are and decide this is something extraordinary worth pointing out. For what?

I use the word "BDZ" because that's what been used before in Starcraft debates. In fact, someone posted text indicating the same before if I remember correctly. But your idea that in a certain situation they did not use all their firepower therefore they cannot do it is fucking stupid. Looks like you're one of those morons that thinks if someone doesn't do something at one time they can't no matter what. I wonder how you'd fare if it was Jedi versus X, and you'd probably use the same broken logic to say Jedi couldn't use telekenesis because in certain situations they didn't.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm going to throw in just a few tidibits insoafar as quantifcation:

The Protoss bombardments are worthless unless you can establish a definite timeframe. I've seen fanwhores claiming that it takes "minutes" on Spacebattles, but they've never been able to come up with more than "I read the passage and timed it/interpreted it that way!" which is about the most retarded excuse you can invent.

That said, the ENERGY content involved in the bombardment is extreme, at least according to the novels. Holes blasted in the crust (to wipe out human settlements) - at least a dozen of those. The crust molten dozens of feet into the crust, and with about 80% or so of its atmosphere blown off.

As for Terran "gauss" weapons... well we know their armour is resistant to most "small arms" fire.. we could safely assume that this covers most pistols, SMGs and probably some of the less-powerful assault rifles. That might put Gauss rounds equal to say, a SMG or M-16 round.

Upper limit is going to be based on recoil and momentum. Gauss weapons can be used by normal people (possibly in a limited fashion) and even an armoured marine only adds a few hundred pounds to his mass. So the effective (total) momentum of the Gauss weapon can't really be more than the combined mass of the guy firing it (and even then, he'll need to be in a well braced position, because the recoil will s hove him back at least a meter on firing.) THat "recoil" is also for a full auto burst, ,mind.

Some ppl on SB take to claiming that gauss weapons can knock people over (or even armored marines) in a single shot and have magic anti-grav counterforce devices built into the armor, but that defies parsimony and lgoic (As well as being logically inconsistent, because there are plenty of examples that disprove that level of momentum.)

[Peptuck]

So the solution is to:
1) Somehow intentionally get a Zergling in the path of the vehicle.
2) Pray the blithering idiots won't call in something they clearly see they hit, when they would effectively report a surprise attack by the same forces.
3) Pray the blithering idiots are stupid enough to even bother to leave the vehicle, especially before reporting in.

If you were on patrol in a vehicle and you ran over a fucking dog on your pattern, would you fucking call it in? Do you think anyone back at base cares that you smashed into some critter out in the desert that was stupid enough to get in the way of your vehicle? They had no idea what the hell it was they hit until they got out and checked it with their own eyes, and they clearly thought it was a dog until they got outside and looked at it.

If you were the Zerg in that situation, what tactic would you have used to eliminate a vehicle patrol? Rushing it with Zerglings and Hydralisks, something that even those morons would have recognized and called in before they were overrun?

I see you boys like to throw around the term BDZ with the Protoss bombardments of Chau Sara, Mar Sara, and Tarsonis. If that's the case why does Arcturus Mensk order you and Kerrigan to hold off the Protoss to allow for the Zerg to finish the job, because if the Protoss aren't slowed down the Confederates might escape/survive in sufficient force to be a threat? If The Protoss bombardment is so badass, why wouldn't the Protoss more then finish the job themselves?

Were you not paying any fucking attention in the game or the background? The Protoss sent GROUND FORCES down to the planet to eliminate the Zerg. That is a complete shift from their regular tactics, which wholly consisted of "burn the planet from orbit." Just as important is the fact that Tassadar felt pity for the hmans and was refusing to obey the orders by his superiors to purge both the humans and the Zerg. Adding to this, remember that Mengsk sent Kerrigan to fight the Protoss, because if the Protoss engaged the Zerg it would give the Confederates a chance to escape.

Put two and two together you moron. Tassadar was trying to save the humans on Tarsonis! That was why the Protoss didn't simply burn the planet from orbit.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'm going to throw in just a few tidibits insoafar as quantifcation:

Upper limit is going to be based on recoil and momentum. Gauss weapons can be used by normal people (possibly in a limited fashion) and even an armoured marine only adds a few hundred pounds to his mass. So the effective (total) momentum of the Gauss weapon can't really be more than the combined mass of the guy firing it (and even then, he'll need to be in a well braced position, because the recoil will s hove him back at least a meter on firing.) THat "recoil" is also for a full auto burst, ,mind.

Some ppl on SB take to claiming that gauss weapons can knock people over (or even armored marines) in a single shot and have magic anti-grav counterforce devices built into the armor, but that defies parsimony and lgoic (As well as being logically inconsistent, because there are plenty of examples that disprove that level of momentum.)

Side note: Starcraft: Liberty's Crusade has the journalist protagonist inside a suit fire a gun after it braces itself.

Raynor states without hyperbole that using the Gauss gun (even in a short burst) without the suit being braced (but while still using the SM suit) would result in him being knocked "Flat on his ass from the recoil". (The burst also blasts chunks out of the rock to the points where it's layered with white scars, from a very short and innaccurate burst/shot).

Where did you get the bit about normal people using the Gauss gun? If it's recoil can send a man in a massive metal powered suit flying without it bracing itself, I find it hard to believe that a normal human could fire it without resulting in broken bones and being thrown away from the gun.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

FOG3, honestly, you're kind of a dipshit. Seeing as how Starcraft is a sci-fi realm I find more interesting than usual, and thus, devote a little bit more time to it, I figure I should comment on your idiocy:

You want to know why everyone in the game is a moron related to the Zerg victories, well let's see:
In the Original
-The Confederacy losses to them because they not only ignore the threat they represent, but purposefully secede worlds to them.

Wrong, dipshit, did you even *play* the fucking game? The Confederacy considered outposts like Mar Sara and Chau Sara expendable. They were running experiments on the Zerg there, developing their psi-emitters and seeing the effectiveness of Zerg in combat against the colonial forces, trying to use them as a biological weapon.

The Zerg didn't become a palpable threat to the Confederacy until The Sons of Korhal started placing psi-emitters on core Confederacy planets, drawing legions down upon them.

-The Terran Dominion is pretty much ditto.

Evidence for this, fuckwit? Mengst took over what was essentially a shattered empire. Despite the fact that the Terran Dominion was substantially less powerful than The Confederacy at its prime, he moved immediately to consolidate his own gains and even made an assault on Char. Even then he still had the majority of the Zerg swarm, Tassadar's expeditionary fleet, and Raynor's Raiders to deal with. Despite all that, his empire didn't collapse until the UED showed up, which took everyone by surprise.

-The Protoss spend almost the entire game with their thumbs up their butts chasing Tassadar around and virtually ignoring the Zerg even when they land on Aiur. It's explicitly said they diverted the majority of their forces from taking on the Zerg to hunt the heretic after the Zerg made landfall.

That's because Aldaris was a religious fanatic. I'd love to see you find anyone here who is trying to deny that the Protoss were lead in a rather piss-poor fashion.

-The Protoss for the most part flat out ignore the Terrans.

1) Yeah, BDZing two planets and holding heavy skirmishes with several others is flat-out ignoring. Mmmhm.

2) Before the Zerg gutted them, the Protoss *could* flat-out ignore the Terrans. Poor leadership aside, they were still orders of magnitude more technologically advanced, held far greater territory, and had much greater numbers than the Terrans.

In the Brood Wars
-The UED Takes control of the Overmind and Zerg without sufficient safeguards allowing them to thrive.

Oh yeah, because decimating the Terran Dominion, reducing the Protoss to effectively a single, embattled planet arguably under their control, and disrupting all rogue broods with the Psi-Disrupter doesn't represent safeguards.

They failed only because of two wildcards: Kerrigan, the union of Zerg power and Terran psionic potential and ingenuity which they had no idea even existed. And Duran, an agent of the Xel-Naga, which no one except for some historically-minded Protoss even knew about.

-The Terran Dominion and Protoss make a devil's bargain with Kerrigan furthering the Zerg's growth.

1) The Terran Dominion had just had its capital sacked by the UED. It had no power left and the only reason Arcturas wasn't quickly tried and executed was because Kerrigan and Raynor moved in to save him at the last minute. In between death and allying with the enemy of his enemy, I'm pretty sure Mengst made the most reasonable choice to him.

2) Ditto with the Protoss. The Zerg were already swarming over Shakuras, pretty much their last stronghold. Without Kerrigan's aid in securing the two crystals needed to power the Xel-Naga artifact and repel the Zerg from the planet, the Protoss would be...what's that word...oh yeah, dead. In between death and helping out Kerrigan, again, I think they made a pretty reasonable choice.

By all means show how they did anything that wasn't the equivalent of putting an auto with a round in the chamber up to their head and pulling the trigger in regards to the Zerg.

Okay, let's see: Mengst survived. Raynor survived. Zeratul survived. All of whom have at least a small number of forces still under their control. Considering the strength of the Zerg Swarm and their other enemies in the Starcraft universe, that's pretty fucking good.

Yeah, I'm really the one who isn't thinking stuff through here. Fanboys, you have to hate them. You have any other high handed poorly though out garbage for me to take out?

It's really cute watching you. You try to hold the arrogant demeanor of some of the other posters here, yet you consistently show yourself to be a fucking idiot. So the end result is you looking like a four-year old strutting around shouting, "Yeah, I'm the best! I'm right! Look at me!"

I see you boys like to throw around the term BDZ with the Protoss bombardments of Chau Sara, Mar Sara, and Tarsonis. If that's the case why does Arcturus Mensk order you and Kerrigan to hold off the Protoss to allow for the Zerg to finish the job, because if the Protoss aren't slowed down the Confederates might escape/survive in sufficient force to be a threat? If The Protoss bombardment is so badass, why wouldn't the Protoss more then finish the job themselves?

Again you prove that you didn't pay any attention at all to the game.

As stated in the manual, Tassadar's expeditionary fleet promptly BDZ'd Chau Sara. It then moved towards Mar Sara, and then suddenly withdrew. The reason for this was because Tassadar finally acted on his doubts about the Council's leadership ability.

Later, in the game, the Protoss return and BDZ Chau Sara. It doesn't state exactly who was in charge of this fleet. It could be Tassadar, deciding he wanted to vaporize some more Terrans after all, unlikely considering his actions later in the game. More likely it was a separate fleet, probably one searching for the now-missing Tassadar.

As far as Tarsonis goes. The given evidence suggests its most likely Tassadar's fleet that arrives, and as they don't want to kill massive numbers of Terrans, they try to engage the Zerg in a ground war. This is further evidenced by the fact that the Infested Kerrigan states she had met Tassadar before, and the only time we know of in game that would have been possible is on Tarsonis.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Side note: Starcraft: Liberty's Crusade has the journalist protagonist inside a suit fire a gun after it braces itself.

Raynor states without hyperbole that using the Gauss gun (even in a short burst) without the suit being braced (but while still using the SM suit) would result in him being knocked "Flat on his ass from the recoil".

Several problems with that: The novels definitely aren't canon (with good reason, from some of the stuff I've heard about them).

Second: The manual states that the rifles the marines use have two sets of handles and triggers: One for power-suit use and one for regular-human use. Why would that second set be there if un-suited humans could not use the weapon?

Recoil is still an issue, though. IIRC, the manual states that the rifles have a natural 'interrupter' function that pauses after every couple of rounds fired both to conserve ammo and to help with aim.

[Peptuck]

That's because Aldaris was a religious fanatic. I'd love to see you find anyone here who is trying to deny that the Protoss were lead in a rather piss-poor fashion.

As an aside, they don't send the majority of their forces out to take down Tassadar; Aldaris is simply a representative of the Conclave and orders the player's troops to go locate Tassadar. The vast majority of Protoss forces stay on Auir to fight the Zerg, with Fenix remaining behind with a small detachment to defend the Antioc outpost.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

As an aside, they don't send the majority of their forces out to take down Tassadar; Aldaris is simply a representative of the Conclave and orders the player's troops to go locate Tassadar. The vast majority of Protoss forces stay on Auir to fight the Zerg, with Fenix remaining behind with a small detachment to defend the Antioc outpost.

This is something I'd like to see more clarification on from Blizzard. Allegedly the Protoss, in their prime, had well over a hundred planets under their 'control'. (Control meaning they had bases, outposts, fleets, etc., but refused to interfere with the natural inhabitants the way the Xel-Naga did). They lacked a large population, but most of their forces were automated machinery, so large numbers weren't needed, they 'owned' about one tenth the territory the Xel-Naga used to. The Terran's combined might (the Confederacy, the Kel-Morian Combine, and various pirate factions) are said to merely reside in 'the shadow' of Protoss-space.

This doesn't even include the territory controlled by the Dark Templar, the low-end estimate being at least full control of the planet Shakuras, though likely more.

Yet in the game, all that is shown are the Protoss fleets journeying out and attacking Mar Sara, Chau Sara, Tarsonis, and Char...and the battles on Auir. Nothing of the other presumably hundreds of planets are ever shown, or of the allegedly massive fleet-presence that surely must be there if the Protoss can casually send multiple BDZ-capable 'expeditionary' fleets to wreak havoc in Terran-space.

After the events of the first game, the Protoss were considered largely shattered and impotent...yet no information is given about the numerous other planets under their control. What the hell happened there? Did the Zerg swarm attack all these as well...despite in-game claims that the entirety of the swarm was focused around Aiur and Char, and the wormhole that opened up between the two?

I love the universe, but some of the inconsistencies are rather annoying. Like the fact that we don't ever get to see the higher-ups in either the original Protoss government or the Terran Confederacy. We see Aldaris, who is only a representative of the Council, and General Duke, commander of Alpha Squadron.