Good Science in Sci-Fi

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Lancer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3957
Joined: 2003-12-17 06:06pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Lancer »

Starglider wrote:What you say? Someone actually did this?
ST TOS: A Taste of Armageddon apparently did; though they're referred to as "planetary disruptor banks", and the only mention of any sonics is when something impacts the shields and they mention that had shields not been up; they'd have been destroyed.
[url=http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:ukMygAy_MFYJ:www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/24tastearmageddontrans.htm+tos+a+taste+of+armageddon+transcript&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us]Transcript[/url] wrote:...
Planetary disruptor banks,
calculate orbit of star cruiser now circling.
Stand by to fire full power.
Councilman, planetary disruptorbanks locked onto target.
Standing by.
In 10 seconds, open fire.
Destroy the star cruiser.
Those are the orders of the council.
Ship 's Log. Stardate 3193.0--
Chief Engineer Scott recording.
The captain and first officer are overdue
and missing on the surface of Eminiar 7.
I have taken standard precautionary measures
while we continue our attempts to locate them.
All stations reporting.
Deflector screens rigged at full power.
Phaser crews ready.
Sensors reading 0.
Correction. Mr. Scott.
Yes, Mr. DePaul?
Sensor readings just shot off the scale.
Well, now...
they're taking pot shots at us.
Holding, Mr. DePaul?
Screens firm, sir.
Extremely powerful sonic vibrations.
Decibels-- 18 to the 12th power.
If those screens weren't up,
we'd be totally disrupted by now.
I guess that answers our questions, Mr. Scott.
...
User avatar
Beowulf
The Patrician
Posts: 10621
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:18am
Location: 32ULV

Post by Beowulf »

I don't think most of the mecha in the various Gundam series transform. Mecha still don't make sense though.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Apart from most mobile armours, only a few Gundam and similar mobile suits transform. If you ignore the plot device radar jamming Minovsky particles and the mecha, you've got a franchise that is quite hard SF.
Lord of the Abyss
Village Idiot
Posts: 4046
Joined: 2005-06-15 12:21am
Location: The Abyss

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

If you want to stretch a point, you can argue that there actually is sound in space, of a sort. As I understand the argument, space, especially in cluttered neighborhoods like solar systems, is filled with highly rarefied gas, and objects and other disturbances do produce moving shockwaves in that gas ( the charge lets the particles interact ). So a spaceship moving in space does produce "sound", of a sort; you couldn't hear it with human ears even if they'd last long in space, but there's no reason you couldn't translate the shockwaves into audible sound. It's no odder than the common artistic license of translating radio transmissions into speech or beeps and bleeps.
Paradox244
Youngling
Posts: 84
Joined: 2007-09-02 05:45pm

Post by Paradox244 »

There isn't enough gas in space to make any real sound. Maybe in a nebula, but even those are pretty diffuse. I read about a black hole creating huge sound waves in one, but you'd need an ear the size of a galaxy to hear it. In short, there is a reason they call it a vacuem.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Ooh, I'm quaking in my boots. What's he going to do? Rhetoric us to death?
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Apart from most mobile armours, only a few Gundam and similar mobile suits transform. If you ignore the plot device radar jamming Minovsky particles and the mecha, you've got a franchise that is quite hard SF.
Don't they have ludicrously compact power sources as well?
User avatar
Beowulf
The Patrician
Posts: 10621
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:18am
Location: 32ULV

Post by Beowulf »

Ignore Minovsky physics in general and mecha from Gundam and it's decently hard SF.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Beowulf wrote:Ignore Minovsky physics in general and mecha from Gundam and it's decently hard SF.
Aside from the mecha being the centre of all the plots, the setting has beam cannons firing made-up particles, insanely compact fusion reactors, the Minowank particle magic jamming system, implausibly high efficiency pseudo-reactionless drives, force fields and so I've heard psionics and FTL (though I may be wrong on this). No way, no how is this qualifying as 'hard sci-fi'. It may qualify as a 'reasonable depiction of science and technology' if and when the HAB develops mecha-filtering sunglasses. Of course this would render 50% of the animes unwatchable, and 30% of the rest is whiny teen angsting. :P
User avatar
Zor
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5928
Joined: 2004-06-08 03:37am

Post by Zor »

Starglider wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Ignore Minovsky physics in general and mecha from Gundam and it's decently hard SF.
Aside from the mecha being the centre of all the plots, the setting has (snip) FTL (though I may be wrong on this).
Gundam never had that.

Zor
HAIL ZOR! WE'LL BLOW UP THE OCEAN!
Heros of Cybertron-HAB-Keeper of the Vicious pit of Allosauruses-King Leighton-I, United Kingdom of Zoria: SD.net World/Tsar Mikhail-I of the Red Tsardom: SD.net Kingdoms
WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON EARTH, ALL EARTH BREAKS LOOSE ON HELL
Terran Sphere
The Art of Zor
Shadowtraveler
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2006-03-04 09:23pm

Post by Shadowtraveler »

Computer science-wise, the problem with the Slyandro Probes in Star Control 2.
User avatar
Molyneux
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7186
Joined: 2005-03-04 08:47am
Location: Long Island

Post by Molyneux »

Shadowtraveler wrote:Computer science-wise, the problem with the Slyandro Probes in Star Control 2.
Perhaps you might furnish those of us who've never heard of Star Control with an explanation?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
User avatar
Laughing Mechanicus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 721
Joined: 2002-09-21 11:46am
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Laughing Mechanicus »

I recently watched a 1990 film called Robot Jox, which is an insanely dated campy story set after a Third World War where the worlds superpowers settle their differences by having giant... mecha do battle in an arena, complete with spectators.

It's as ridiculously lame as it sounds, but at one point the robots both take flight (little boosters in the feet, of course) and take the fight into space. Hilariously, the film then switched to realistic mode and correctly had no sound in space. Obviously, there were still giant mecha up in space fighting each other with melee weapons, but at least they tried.
Indie game dev, my website: SlowBladeSystems. Twitter: @slowbladesys
Also officer of the Sunday Simmers, a Steam group for war game and simulation enthusiasts
User avatar
Karza
Jedi Knight
Posts: 562
Joined: 2004-07-07 09:02am
Location: Turku, Finland

Post by Karza »

Molyneux wrote:
Shadowtraveler wrote:Computer science-wise, the problem with the Slyandro Probes in Star Control 2.
Perhaps you might furnish those of us who've never heard of Star Control with an explanation?
Well, in Star Control 2 the player's ship occasionally encountered probes from a race called Slylandro, who'd always, no matter what you said in the dialogue screen, attack you with a short ranged lightning weapon. When you eventually found the Slylandro homeworld, it turned out they were halfway gaseous lifeforms who hadn't actually built any probes, but bought them from the Melnorme (the interstellar traders in all sorts of stuff in SC). The probes were actually built for resource gathering and exploration, but the Slylandro set their behavior parameters a bit wrong. They set the resource gathering priority to absolute maximum, which led to the probes basically trying to harvest any resources they found, even if said resources came in the form of a non-hostile spaceship.

Eventually the whole dilemma was solved when the player informed the Slylandro that their probes were attacking everything on sight with a lightning gun, which led to them realizing it was actually in resource gathering mode during the attack (since the lightning thingy was supposed to be used for harvesting, and in combat it was supposed to use some sort of a missile battery). After that the Slylandro gave the player the control codes so the probes could be set to balanced behavior when encountered.

I think Shadowtraveler meant how the Slylandro explained the probe behavior control worked. It was said you just gave it a number between 0 and 99 for each function it could do. The Slylandro set the resource gathering to 99 to get more probes ready as soon as possible, and left the rest at something like 5, resulting in the resource gathering to override all other considerations when encountering other ships.
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
User avatar
Beowulf
The Patrician
Posts: 10621
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:18am
Location: 32ULV

Post by Beowulf »

Starglider wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Ignore Minovsky physics in general and mecha from Gundam and it's decently hard SF.
Aside from the mecha being the centre of all the plots, the setting has beam cannons firing made-up particles
Minovsky physics
insanely compact fusion reactors
Minovsky physics
the Minowank particle magic jamming system
Minovsky physics
implausibly high efficiency pseudo-reactionless drives
Minovsky physics
force fields
Minovsky physics
and so I've heard psionics and FTL (though I may be wrong on this).
Got me on the psionics. FTL doesn't exist though.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
User avatar
Andras
Jedi Knight
Posts: 575
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:27am
Location: Waldorf, MD

Post by Andras »

I'll nominate the anime Wings of Honiamise (I think I spelled that right, been awhile).

It's like a combination of The Right Stuff and a little bit of Jules Verne. The story follows a pilot who is participating in his country's space program and becomes the first man in space. Note, it's not set on Earth.
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Minovsky physics in UC Gundam is sort of the equivalent to the Dune Universe's Holtzman effect. :P

Other than that little cover-all magic bullet and Newtype metaphysics, UC Gundam is indeed quite hard sci-fi in it's setting.

The Earth Sphere is actually about as romantic as you can get for hard science fiction. :)
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

Contact.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
ThatGuyFromThatPlace
Jedi Knight
Posts: 691
Joined: 2006-08-21 12:52am

Post by ThatGuyFromThatPlace »

Sunshine was pretty good, except for the whole "using a super-massive bomb to jump-start the sun" part
[img=right]http://www.geocities.com/jamealbeluvien/revolution.jpg[/img]"Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
- The Operative, Serenity
"Everything they've ever "known" has been proven to be wrong. A thousand years ago everybody knew as a fact, that the earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, they knew it was flat. Fifteen minutes ago, you knew we humans were alone on it. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."
-Agent Kay, Men In Black
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Minovsky physics in UC Gundam is sort of the equivalent to the Dune Universe's Holtzman effect. :P

Other than that little cover-all magic bullet and Newtype metaphysics, UC Gundam is indeed quite hard sci-fi in it's setting.

The Earth Sphere is actually about as romantic as you can get for hard science fiction. :)
Heh, that's like saying "Well, it's hard sci-fi, except that just about all the technology we see running around on the show is based on magic."

I don't think a show can claim to be hard sci-fi when it's centrally based around giant mecha shooting rayguns at each other. It's not like Minovski physics is just something that's part of the background to make the show work, like FTL is in alot of shows. It's pretty central to the plot and Minovsky particles were the #1 catch all excuse for the show.

But completely ignoring the central magic technology of the show which everything revolves around, including all the mechas and pew pew beam guns and teeny tiny fusion reactors and stuff, yes, UC Gundam sure is hard sci-fi.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Beowulf wrote:Got me on the psionics. FTL doesn't exist though.
Apparently it does in a CG special, although I have no idea what the canon rules for Gundam are and whether this counts.

But anyway, I agree with Gil Hamilton; no 'yeah this would be hard sci-fi if you ignored 70% of the footage' allowed. By that definition B5, Trek and SW would all be 'fairly hard sci-fi'.
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Well, I certainly think it's safe to say the Universial Century does have some hard sci-fi elements, but I don't think it can be called a hard sci-fi show.

In the same vein that nBSG has alot of hard sci-fi elements, but it's not really a hard sci-fi because you can't get around the mysticism and the damn Cylons doing something vaguely magic every five seconds.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Gundam at least has a lot of aspects based on modern principles, even if it does go overboard with mechas and the special physics that allows a lot of funky effects to happen. 2001, for instance, is hard as they come, yet it still has the practically magic Monoliths that are way ahead of us in science and technology. So long as the basis for a story isn't littered with far out concepts, you can excuse things that could happen, but not with our current understanding of physics.
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Gundam's Minovsky physics are reasonably well defined and internally consistant as well. I would put that as being more hard than random technobabble of the week.
Anything can be internally consistent and well defined if your definition is "does literally anything the plot requires of it".
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:Gundam's Minovsky physics are reasonably well defined and internally consistant as well. I would put that as being more hard than random technobabble of the week.
Anything can be internally consistent and well defined if your definition is "does literally anything the plot requires of it".
Except that's not how Minovsky physics are treated or used in Gundam. Yes, there are numerous applications and technology that stem from Minovsky physics, but they all have their own specifically defined rules and guidelines of functionality: Minovsky particle jamming functions in only a certain way; mega particle weapons function in only a certain way; I-fields function in only a certain way, etc...

It's not like Star Trek where you can literally do virtually anything with the warp nacelles or navigational deflector by playing connect-the-dots with nonsense technobabble terms.
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
fgalkin2
Padawan Learner
Posts: 281
Joined: 2002-07-04 04:47pm

Post by fgalkin2 »

If you make a perfectly plausible and 100% accurate universe, then add a coherent and thought-through system of magic, it will no longer be a "plausible" universe, no matter how thought through it is.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
This is me posting from a public computer or a mobile device.
Post Reply