Under what circumstances could the famously neutral governments such as the Corporate Sector Authority, the Hapan Consortium, the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium, even the Chiss Ascendancy (or others) have played a more active role in the Galactic Civil War? On what side would they have fought on (assuming they don't fight other sides or declare co-belligerence but not alliance)? How would this change the outcome of the war?
I know that most of the factions are on the outskirts of the galaxy, but still.
Infinities question- Neutral Factions in the Civil War?
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Battlehymn Republic
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KlavoHunter
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To be blunt, they don't.
So the Hapans declare for the Rebellion in the middle of the war.
By tea time the next day, the Hapans are crushed under the Empire's 25,000-strong Star Destroyer fleet and are adapting to their new way of life as slaves to the Empire.
Some ships, men, and material may escape to actually join the Rebellion, the impact here is rather minimal, as the war ends at Endor. It really just means more ships in the Rebel Fleet as of Endor to get pounded on by Star Destroyers.
This is just an example of what happens if a power openly declares for the Rebellion.
If the CSA openly declared for the Empire and war against the Rebellion... well, I suppose nothing would happen, really, other than the Rebels stay out of CSA space.
Then again, would the Empire still -like- the idea of other powers declaring war on what are rebelling members of the Empire?
Would the United States be happy if the Spanish declared war on the Confederate States and started landing troops in Florida? No. That's still land that belongs to the United States, as far as the US is concerned.
So the Hapans declare for the Rebellion in the middle of the war.
By tea time the next day, the Hapans are crushed under the Empire's 25,000-strong Star Destroyer fleet and are adapting to their new way of life as slaves to the Empire.
Some ships, men, and material may escape to actually join the Rebellion, the impact here is rather minimal, as the war ends at Endor. It really just means more ships in the Rebel Fleet as of Endor to get pounded on by Star Destroyers.
This is just an example of what happens if a power openly declares for the Rebellion.
If the CSA openly declared for the Empire and war against the Rebellion... well, I suppose nothing would happen, really, other than the Rebels stay out of CSA space.
Then again, would the Empire still -like- the idea of other powers declaring war on what are rebelling members of the Empire?
Would the United States be happy if the Spanish declared war on the Confederate States and started landing troops in Florida? No. That's still land that belongs to the United States, as far as the US is concerned.
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Connor MacLeod
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The military and infrastructural might of the Galactic Empire at its height was a truly singular force in the Galaxy. Even if every single neutral faction in the Disk declared war on it at the same time, they still would have been unable to overcome it by conventional means. Even without its massive, powerful fleet and host of super weapons and special technologies, its sheer productive capacity is virtually unstoppable, unless it fragments internally, as it eventually did. Any faction that can harness a majority of the Galaxy's infrastructure is a match even a superficially superior military, as is demonstrated all too well in the NJO, specifically in Destiny's Way, in the GFFA's eventual response to the Yuuzhan Vong; the Empire had both a better hold on its productive organs than the GFFA did, and a vastly superior military base.
Similarly, open alliance with the Empire would have had a more or less negligible effect on the outcome of the war. None of the aforementioned factions played a particular role in the Rebel Alliance's operational base.
Similarly, open alliance with the Empire would have had a more or less negligible effect on the outcome of the war. None of the aforementioned factions played a particular role in the Rebel Alliance's operational base.
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lord Martiya
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For what I know, until Dark Empire the Empire was too strong even for the Yuuzhan Vong, and if decently cohordinated was virtually unstoppable (in Dark Empire a weakened Empire near crushed the New Republic, and was beated only for a mixt of multiple treasons, very bad luck, a crazy astrodroid in the worst possible place and Nom Anor plots). Only desperates and mads will challenge a similar war machine, and even if all neutral factions (Corporate Sector, Ssi-Ruuk, Hapans, CIS Remnants, Chiss and everyone else except the Vongs) allied themselves with the Rebels, they could conquer only one periferic sector of two before being divided by Imperial agents (Mara Jade was a bit too sure of herself to being adequate for anithing else than political murder, but other Emperor's Hands as Lumiya were smarter and very dangerous, ask to Luke Skywalker for references) and/or smashed by the Imperial leviathan guided by very fine strategists (at least one better than Thrawn) and composed of legions of formidable soldiers and sailors equipped with terrifing and very powerful weapons, armours and ships.
The only one power that could challenge the Empire during the Civil War on a respectable level were the Yuuzhan Vong, but even an unlikely alliance of them with every other faction is inferior, and in the beginning the Vong will have little industrial base.
The only one power that could challenge the Empire during the Civil War on a respectable level were the Yuuzhan Vong, but even an unlikely alliance of them with every other faction is inferior, and in the beginning the Vong will have little industrial base.
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Lord Pounder
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You seem to sell Hapes very short. They where well enough armed to capture quite a few of those 25,000 Star Destroyers intact and keep out the Warlords who took over when Palpy died.KlavoHunter wrote:To be blunt, they don't.
So the Hapans declare for the Rebellion in the middle of the war.
By tea time the next day, the Hapans are crushed under the Empire's 25,000-strong Star Destroyer fleet and are adapting to their new way of life as slaves to the Empire.
Some ships, men, and material may escape to actually join the Rebellion, the impact here is rather minimal, as the war ends at Endor. It really just means more ships in the Rebel Fleet as of Endor to get pounded on by Star Destroyers.
You also seem to miss they part where the Rebellion still had a fleet at the end of The Battle Of Endor while the Imperial Fleet lost an Executor Class Star Dreadnaught, a Communications Ship and several Star Destroyers intact.
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lord Martiya
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At Endor the Emperor overrided his commanders and forced them in an uneffective tactic (at the beginning one attack of the Executor, all Star Destroyers and the fighters could be decisive, but only the fighters attacked, and in the aftermath Rebel concentrated their attacks on the Executor and his escort, HALF of the fleet), and even this proved adequate to make Rebel fleet vulnerable to attacks from any sector fleet.
And in the aftermath of the battle, the Empire was in chaos, with even the population of CORUSCANT in open revolt (seen in Return of the Jedi) and all warlords fighting for the power. In this situation, perhaps even the Klingons may be able to capture a lone and isolated Star Destroyer. The Rebels won the war exactly for this.
And in the aftermath of the battle, the Empire was in chaos, with even the population of CORUSCANT in open revolt (seen in Return of the Jedi) and all warlords fighting for the power. In this situation, perhaps even the Klingons may be able to capture a lone and isolated Star Destroyer. The Rebels won the war exactly for this.
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KlavoHunter
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Oh, I'm not - Post-Endor was a very different battlefield, and without any form of central authority, it's not like there's an Emperor around to say "Crush the Hapans, Grand Admiral!". Whereas some Warlord with greedy eyes is likely to get himself little more than a bloody nose and lost ships if he tries the same thing.Lord Pounder wrote:You seem to sell Hapes very short. They where well enough armed to capture quite a few of those 25,000 Star Destroyers intact and keep out the Warlords who took over when Palpy died.
It's really hard to tell how many losses the Rebels suffered at Endor, seeing as the fleet counts were never consistent.You also seem to miss they part where the Rebellion still had a fleet at the end of The Battle Of Endor while the Imperial Fleet lost an Executor Class Star Dreadnaught, a Communications Ship and several Star Destroyers intact.
Exactlylord Martiya wrote:At Endor the Emperor overrided his commanders and forced them in an uneffective tactic (at the beginning one attack of the Executor, all Star Destroyers and the fighters could be decisive, but only the fighters attacked, and in the aftermath Rebel concentrated their attacks on the Executor and his escort, HALF of the fleet), and even this proved adequate to make Rebel fleet vulnerable to attacks from any sector fleet.
And in the aftermath of the battle, the Empire was in chaos, with even the population of CORUSCANT in open revolt (seen in Return of the Jedi) and all warlords fighting for the power. In this situation, perhaps even the Klingons may be able to capture a lone and isolated Star Destroyer. The Rebels won the war exactly for this.
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Publius
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Neutral Kabal (ostensibly part of the Empire) even hosted a Conference of Uncommitted Worlds in 35rS, during which the ARR wooed new members like Commander Silver Fyre's Aquaris Freeholders ("Deadly Reunion," "Traitor's Gambit"), and the banking world of Aargau, one of the main financial centers of the galaxy and a pillar of the Empire, accorded full diplomatic recognition to the rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic, treating the ARR's emissary, the Princess Leia of Alderaan, no differently from the Imperial State's representative, Darth Vader.
Imperial member states (like Ralltiir, Corellia, Chandrila, Esseles, and Alderaan) were nominally free to manage their own affairs as they saw fit, and maintained their own military and naval forces. Client states (like the Corporate Sector, Hutt Space, the Tion Hegemony, and the Centrality) were likewise free to govern themselves, free of Imperial interference. In practice this meant very little; the Imperial State was notorious for playing fast and loose with legal niceties, and habitually meddled in matters beyond its jurisdiction (including overt naval operations within Hutt Space in The Hutt Gambit and prowling the Corporate Sector's border in Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook).
See for example the case of Kabal, which had formally declared its neutrality in the fighting between the Imperial State and the ARR. The Imperial State's response was to declare neutrality to be a crime, and bombarded the planet from orbit.
More often than not the Empire's "noninterference" came with a price. The Corporate Sector Authority, for example, bought its autonomy at a price of 3% its annual gross income, 9% of all raw materials mined, and 20% of all strategic rare elements (Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook); nevertheless it found it necessary to continually placate the Empire's ruling class with additional concessions and bribes, lest they choose to ignore their treaty obligations and intervene directly in the CSA's affairs.
A given regional power may control thousands of star systems and fleets numbering in the hundreds of thousands of ships; according to the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook, the Corporate Sector consisted of some 30,000 star systems, yet it was considered to be "one wisp off one branch at the end of one arm of the galaxy" (Han Solo at Stars' End). The Galactic Empire consists of 50 million polities spread out over billions of worlds; according to Planets of the Galaxy, Volume Three it assigned more than a million soldiers to the occupation of a relatively minor manufacturing world in the Elrood Sector, a galactic backwater "far from the heart of the ongoing civil war" (in fact, it is said to be more or less "free of direct Imperial dominance"). A single Sector Group boasts of more than 1,600 warships and has sufficient amphibious capacity to land as many as four million troops, according to the Imperial Sourcebook; there are thousands of SectGrus throughout the Empire, and the Empire's industrial base is sufficiently large that entire worlds are dedicated to mining and manufacturing.
Even if regional powers like Dornea and the Hapes Consortium enjoy one-to-one superiority over Imperial forces, they simply do not have the manpower or industrial capacity to fight a full-scale war against the Empire. As late as 47rS, the liliputian rogue warlords of the Deep Core controlled the equivalent of only three or four SectGrus, but could boast of "millions upon millions" of shocktroopers in Darksaber, despite the fact that the Deep Core was economically barren. The centrally-controlled strategic forces of the Empire were sufficiently powerful that even a fully-equipped SectGru could be easily crushed (Goroth: Slave of the Empire). Fighting the Empire in a conventional war has always been portrayed as a matter of holding out long enough for the Imperials to lose interest; once the full military power of the Galactic Empire is concentrated, there is no state or power in the galaxy that can withstand it.
To be blunt, an enemy power will run out of ammunition before the Empire will run out of targets.
Imperial member states (like Ralltiir, Corellia, Chandrila, Esseles, and Alderaan) were nominally free to manage their own affairs as they saw fit, and maintained their own military and naval forces. Client states (like the Corporate Sector, Hutt Space, the Tion Hegemony, and the Centrality) were likewise free to govern themselves, free of Imperial interference. In practice this meant very little; the Imperial State was notorious for playing fast and loose with legal niceties, and habitually meddled in matters beyond its jurisdiction (including overt naval operations within Hutt Space in The Hutt Gambit and prowling the Corporate Sector's border in Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook).
See for example the case of Kabal, which had formally declared its neutrality in the fighting between the Imperial State and the ARR. The Imperial State's response was to declare neutrality to be a crime, and bombarded the planet from orbit.
More often than not the Empire's "noninterference" came with a price. The Corporate Sector Authority, for example, bought its autonomy at a price of 3% its annual gross income, 9% of all raw materials mined, and 20% of all strategic rare elements (Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook); nevertheless it found it necessary to continually placate the Empire's ruling class with additional concessions and bribes, lest they choose to ignore their treaty obligations and intervene directly in the CSA's affairs.
A given regional power may control thousands of star systems and fleets numbering in the hundreds of thousands of ships; according to the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook, the Corporate Sector consisted of some 30,000 star systems, yet it was considered to be "one wisp off one branch at the end of one arm of the galaxy" (Han Solo at Stars' End). The Galactic Empire consists of 50 million polities spread out over billions of worlds; according to Planets of the Galaxy, Volume Three it assigned more than a million soldiers to the occupation of a relatively minor manufacturing world in the Elrood Sector, a galactic backwater "far from the heart of the ongoing civil war" (in fact, it is said to be more or less "free of direct Imperial dominance"). A single Sector Group boasts of more than 1,600 warships and has sufficient amphibious capacity to land as many as four million troops, according to the Imperial Sourcebook; there are thousands of SectGrus throughout the Empire, and the Empire's industrial base is sufficiently large that entire worlds are dedicated to mining and manufacturing.
Even if regional powers like Dornea and the Hapes Consortium enjoy one-to-one superiority over Imperial forces, they simply do not have the manpower or industrial capacity to fight a full-scale war against the Empire. As late as 47rS, the liliputian rogue warlords of the Deep Core controlled the equivalent of only three or four SectGrus, but could boast of "millions upon millions" of shocktroopers in Darksaber, despite the fact that the Deep Core was economically barren. The centrally-controlled strategic forces of the Empire were sufficiently powerful that even a fully-equipped SectGru could be easily crushed (Goroth: Slave of the Empire). Fighting the Empire in a conventional war has always been portrayed as a matter of holding out long enough for the Imperials to lose interest; once the full military power of the Galactic Empire is concentrated, there is no state or power in the galaxy that can withstand it.
To be blunt, an enemy power will run out of ammunition before the Empire will run out of targets.
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Are you seriously suggesting a nation-state of 63 or so worlds would have any chance against the Galactic Empire?Lord Pounder wrote:You seem to sell Hapes very short. They where well enough armed to capture quite a few of those 25,000 Star Destroyers intact and keep out the Warlords who took over when Palpy died.
The Rebellion barely won the battle. According to the TaB sourcebook, only a quarter of the fleet was in good enough shape to even fight. Words like "shattered" and "slow-moving target" are used, as well.You also seem to miss they part where the Rebellion still had a fleet at the end of The Battle Of Endor while the Imperial Fleet lost an Executor Class Star Dreadnaught, a Communications Ship and several Star Destroyers intact.
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Lord Pounder
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Well, for one thing, the Empire would be insane to send much of its fleet around the galaxy, leaving important sectors defenseless.
And there's that little fact of the Mon Calamari keeping most of their fleets in their own sector simply to keep it safe, adding to its relative remoteness and the Empire wasn't in a rush to spend more resources on reclaiming it. That was actually the Death Star(s) first intended mission.
And there's that little fact of the Mon Calamari keeping most of their fleets in their own sector simply to keep it safe, adding to its relative remoteness and the Empire wasn't in a rush to spend more resources on reclaiming it. That was actually the Death Star(s) first intended mission.
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lord Martiya
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So? That the Empire did not simply obliterate worlds like Sullust and Mon Cal does not mean they did not have the capability to do so. The Empire has the industrial might of almost the entire galaxy at its disposal. Any conventional fighting force would have been utterly destroyed by the Galactic Empire.Lord Pounder wrote:All I'm saying is other worlds openly declared support for the Rebellion yet they weren't "crushed by 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers". Mon Calamari, Sullust for example.
"He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot."
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
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IIRC, Sullust didn't openly declare for the Alliance until after Endor (instead turning a blind eye on some of the rebel activity). Dac was #1 on the Death Star's hit-list and pretty much was forced to keep most of its fleet home anyways.Lord Pounder wrote:All I'm saying is other worlds openly declared support for the Rebellion yet they weren't "crushed by 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers". Mon Calamari, Sullust for example.
A 63-world polity openly declaring war on the Empire is something else entirely.
Has anyone ever given a good reason why a fleet was not sent to wipe out the Mon Cals?
They openly declared for the Rebellion and offered up their fleet for the Rebels to use.
It really makes no sense that a Sector Fleet wasnt routed over long enough to glass the planet and destroy the ship docks. Even if the entire Mon Cal fleet escaped the destruction of production facilities would have been a crippling blow.
They openly declared for the Rebellion and offered up their fleet for the Rebels to use.
It really makes no sense that a Sector Fleet wasnt routed over long enough to glass the planet and destroy the ship docks. Even if the entire Mon Cal fleet escaped the destruction of production facilities would have been a crippling blow.
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lord Martiya
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It can be a good explanation: the Mon Calamaris (species, not planet) had a huge fleet before the Imperial conquest, and they quickly militarized their vessels, as the Home One, creating a big military fleet on par or superior to an Imperial sector fleet, and their planet is in the Outer Rim, far distant from the bulk of the Imperial fleet.
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Fingolfin_Noldor
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I am not sure if it is considered militaristic, but the XvT manual has Mon Mothma stating that the Mon Cals couldn't hold off a full fledged Imperial Taskforce. I am not sure what that exactly means, but I guess it could mean several Star Dreadnaughts and sizable ships.lord Martiya wrote:It can be a good explanation: the Mon Calamaris (species, not planet) had a huge fleet before the Imperial conquest, and they quickly militarized their vessels, as the Home One, creating a big military fleet on par or superior to an Imperial sector fleet, and their planet is in the Outer Rim, far distant from the bulk of the Imperial fleet.
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That isnt a very good reason to ignore them. That is a very good reason to take them out. It means if need be the Mon Cal fleet could hit just about anywhere and gain temporary space superiority and do some major damage.lord Martiya wrote:It can be a good explanation: the Mon Calamaris (species, not planet) had a huge fleet before the Imperial conquest, and they quickly militarized their vessels, as the Home One, creating a big military fleet on par or superior to an Imperial sector fleet, and their planet is in the Outer Rim, far distant from the bulk of the Imperial fleet.
A danger like that if it was true would be a priority target especially once we see how fast hyperdrives are in SW. Two or three Sector Fleets could converge on the Mon Cal system in a matter of hours, wipe out the fleet and be back in place before the day is out.
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Fingolfin_Noldor
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Someone mentioned before that the hyperspace routes into Mon Cal are mined. I forgot who did. Maybe Admiral Nick over at TF.N some time back.Baal wrote:That isnt a very good reason to ignore them. That is a very good reason to take them out. It means if need be the Mon Cal fleet could hit just about anywhere and gain temporary space superiority and do some major damage.lord Martiya wrote:It can be a good explanation: the Mon Calamaris (species, not planet) had a huge fleet before the Imperial conquest, and they quickly militarized their vessels, as the Home One, creating a big military fleet on par or superior to an Imperial sector fleet, and their planet is in the Outer Rim, far distant from the bulk of the Imperial fleet.
A danger like that if it was true would be a priority target especially once we see how fast hyperdrives are in SW. Two or three Sector Fleets could converge on the Mon Cal system in a matter of hours, wipe out the fleet and be back in place before the day is out.
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
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So what kind of mine would it take to take out a Star Destroyer?Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Someone mentioned before that the hyperspace routes into Mon Cal are mined. I forgot who did. Maybe Admiral Nick over at TF.N some time back.Baal wrote:That isnt a very good reason to ignore them. That is a very good reason to take them out. It means if need be the Mon Cal fleet could hit just about anywhere and gain temporary space superiority and do some major damage.lord Martiya wrote:It can be a good explanation: the Mon Calamaris (species, not planet) had a huge fleet before the Imperial conquest, and they quickly militarized their vessels, as the Home One, creating a big military fleet on par or superior to an Imperial sector fleet, and their planet is in the Outer Rim, far distant from the bulk of the Imperial fleet.
A danger like that if it was true would be a priority target especially once we see how fast hyperdrives are in SW. Two or three Sector Fleets could converge on the Mon Cal system in a matter of hours, wipe out the fleet and be back in place before the day is out.
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Dark Flame
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The mines themselves wouldn't have to be powerful enough to disable an ISD in one shot. Just powerful and numerous enough to seriously delay and damage a fleet to the point that it's not worth the effort to keep going to get to Mon Cal.
Also, there could be some ambushes set up to go along with the mines.
Also, there could be some ambushes set up to go along with the mines.
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Fingolfin_Noldor
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Er... It isn't impossible to take out a Star Destroyer with a few heavy mines. During the Vong war, they were used at Coruscant and at the Battle of Ebaq. They were used to great effect at Ebaq I might add.Baal wrote:So what kind of mine would it take to take out a Star Destroyer?
There are anti-ship torpoedoes around, so I won't put it past them to have built anti-ship mines.
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