Jedi aren't so peaceful?

[Molyneux]

The Jedi are strict pacifists. They just adhere to the doctrine of "Preemptive Defense."


They have a code against killing. But depriving your enemy of life is perfectly okay...


See, it all makes sense, doesn't it? *waves hand*

Just think of them as "samurai cops". They ask you to turn yourself in...but they've got a damn big sword and they're not afraid to use it.

[PainRack]

The Jedi are strict pacifists. They just adhere to the doctrine of "Preemptive Defense."


They have a code against killing. But depriving your enemy of life is perfectly okay...


See, it all makes sense, doesn't it? *waves hand*

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack.
An old jedi rule of thumb, attack.

Its not the first time we see contradictory messages in Jedi training. Yoda teachings apparently comprised of both pacificist and militant messages, indeed, considering that they were training luke for the sole purpose of assasinating Vader.............

The odd thing, its really isn't contradictory to "messages" about them being peacekeepers. We're already innunated with messages about how we had to use force to keep the peace and other such junk nowadays.

[Turin]

Well you should tell that to Luke Skywalker. He had a whole "I will not fight you father" tangent that you might find contradicts your point.

Luke Skywalker was hardly a Jedi in the traditional sense, and he was dealing with his dad. He's not really an ideal case to draw on, having received only roughshod training and obviously battling an emotional monster in confronting his father.

Besides Vader calls him on it immediately anyway! "You are unwise to lower your defenses!"

This is a poor example anyway, as Luke always draws first on Vader. In fact, I noticed it so long ago I've thought it was a deliberate part of the theme of Luke's growing understanding in the ways of the Force.

In ANH, Vader already has his saber lit when he confronts Ben. Luke draws first on Vader in his vision in "the cave," at Bespin, and in the throne room with the Emperor -- all examples that show Luke going down the path of emotion/fear. That he turns off the saber in the fight on DS2 later on is a sign that he is beginning to understand the "Jedi way."

[lord Martiya]

Or that he didn't want to kill his own father and join his worst enemy.

[The_Saint]

Is it not possible that the theory of defence and Form Zero is that "a light sabre is a last resort, there are other ways to resolve an issue" and that every time we see the Jedi draw first (eg Qui Gon & Obi Wan vs Darth Maul, Obi Wan and Anakin vs Count Dooku and later Luke vs Darth Vader) is that they're skipping all the mid steps and going straight to the last resort.

Can I make an appeal to their conscience, no
can I mind trick them, no
are they intending to kill me, yes
is this going to have to be resolved with a sabre, yes
*draw sabre*

I don't care if I'm the most peaceful person in the most pacifist organisation in the galaxy, if the person before me has intent to kill and I think there's bugger all chance of any other method succeeding I'm going to want my sabre handy...


As to Luke turning his sabre off in the throne room I htink this is an example of him letting his fear going and taking his sabre.... and then after controlling his thoughts/emotions/whatever he's looking to the good in his father and trying another method [form zero].

[DogsOfWar]

Through the PT, in every lightsaber duel, except for one or two exceptions, the Jedi combatants are always the first to draw their blades.

Of course the Jedi aren't going to look peaceful if you look at the times they attack when they have to fight, it's more informative to look at the times they don't attack when they don't have to fight:

• Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't beat the snot out of Zam Wessel when they were interrogating her
• Mace Windu didn't kill Jango Fett when he had his saber under Jango's chin
• Obi-Wan didn't jump down and slaughter the CIS leadership on Utapau
• Yoda didn't kill Palpatine's red guards in the senate

Etc, etc.

[Lord Revan]

As I've said before in this very thread, the jedi order is pasifist (they prefer to do things without fighting if that's at all possible), but what they are not is total morons who think being pasifistic means you must give the enemy "free" attacks before you can respond

remember Lightsabers have extremly strong cutting power (enough to slice thru the bodie of most (if not all) humanoids in the galaxy).

so especially against dark jedi/Sith, but also your typical blaster wielding goons of generic ganster #123423 jedi will draw their weapons first (Force mind tricks can be resisted especially if used against large numbers and/or when the command is against the duty of said person).

[lord Martiya]

[*]Yoda didn't kill Palpatine's red guards in the senate[/list]

Maybe Yoda killed those two Imperial Guards: he trowed them on the walls at high speeds, and they weren't Force users, just normal well trained soldiers (I suppose: normally the guards of the head of state are elite soldiers in the elite) who could have all bones broken from a such attack.

[Lord Revan]

[*]Yoda didn't kill Palpatine's red guards in the senate[/list]

Maybe Yoda killed those two Imperial Guards: he trowed them on the walls at high speeds, and they weren't Force users, just normal well trained soldiers (I suppose: normally the guards of the head of state are elite soldiers in the elite) who could have all bones broken from a such attack.

they're also equiped with state of the art body armor under that robe (or at least the imperial guards were there's no data on the Red Guard though I don't see a reason why they wouldn't be armored ), so they might as well been knocked out (they were just knocked out in the novel but that was due to a deflected Force lightning not Force based tk)

[lord Martiya]

Yes, they can be just knocked out. But also killed.

[Lord Revan]

Yes, they can be just knocked out. But also killed.

of course but as I said they said to have merely been knocked out in the Novel (while the description of the events is rather different, the Force "power" in equestion there (Force Lightning) is rather more leathal then just a Force Push) and apart from demonizing the Jedi there's no reason why they should have been killed in the movie.

[lord Martiya]

There's a reason: negate all possible interferences that Yoda could. Red Guards weren't Jedi, but however they were elite soldiers trained in martial arts, and if they were just knock out they could recover and try to help Palpatine (who was an almost invincible enemy to Yoda) and/or call for reinforcements, and a battallion of well armed Red Guards alone is a match even for a master Jedi, never mind with Palpatine and perhaps some ancestor of the Emperor's Hand.
And remember that the Jedi were warriors, veterans of the most destructive war of the Galactic History before the Vong War. Even Yoda and Obi-Wan learned that sometimes you HAVE to kill some persons with your target.

[Molyneux]

There's a reason: negate all possible interferences that Yoda could. Red Guards weren't Jedi, but however they were elite soldiers trained in martial arts, and if they were just knock out they could recover and try to help Palpatine (who was an almost invincible enemy to Yoda) and/or call for reinforcements, and a battallion of well armed Red Guards alone is a match even for a master Jedi, never mind with Palpatine and perhaps some ancestor of the Emperor's Hand.
And remember that the Jedi were warriors, veterans of the most destructive war of the Galactic History before the Vong War. Even Yoda and Obi-Wan learned that sometimes you HAVE to kill some persons with your target.

Estimate the force that Yoda used to push them back, given their apparent size and approximate mass; it didn't look to me like the type of attack that would kill someone, even without taking Yoda's distaste for violence into account.

[DogsOfWar]

Besides, if I was a red guard and knew what the Emperor and Yoda were capable of, I'd stay out of the way. The Emperor might have even instructed them not to interfere if any more Jedi showed up.