Good Science in Sci-Fi

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Gundam's Minovsky physics are reasonably well defined and internally consistant as well. I would put that as being more hard than random technobabble of the week.

Anything can be internally consistent and well defined if your definition is "does literally anything the plot requires of it".

Except that's not how Minovsky physics are treated or used in Gundam. Yes, there are numerous applications and technology that stem from Minovsky physics, but they all have their own specifically defined rules and guidelines of functionality: Minovsky particle jamming functions in only a certain way; mega particle weapons function in only a certain way; I-fields function in only a certain way, etc...

It's not like Star Trek where you can literally do virtually anything with the warp nacelles or navigational deflector by playing connect-the-dots with nonsense technobabble terms.

[fgalkin2]

If you make a perfectly plausible and 100% accurate universe, then add a coherent and thought-through system of magic, it will no longer be a "plausible" universe, no matter how thought through it is.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Gil Hamilton]

Except that's not how Minovsky physics are treated or used in Gundam. Yes, there are numerous applications and technology that stem from Minovsky physics, but they all have their own specifically defined rules and guidelines of functionality: Minovsky particle jamming functions in only a certain way; mega particle weapons function in only a certain way; I-fields function in only a certain way, etc...

It's not like Star Trek where you can literally do virtually anything with the warp nacelles or navigational deflector by playing connect-the-dots with nonsense technobabble terms.

You said yourself that Minovsky physics was a "cover-all magic bullet" in UC Gundam. Minovsky physic/particles literally did everything the series required them to do without any explained rules or limits, including making the main focus of the series, which is giant robots piloted by teenagers shooting each other with rayguns. I don't see how you can overlook that and go "Well, it's basically realistic, if you ignore all the magic.... er... Minovsky stuff."

[Gil Hamilton]

If you make a perfectly plausible and 100% accurate universe, then add a coherent and thought-through system of magic, it will no longer be a "plausible" universe, no matter how thought through it is.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Well, I'd say it can still be classed as hard sci-fi, even if it has its own internal magic to it. Like I'd classify Vernor Vinge's "Fire Upon the Deep" to be reasonably hard sci-fi, even though it admittedly is involves with some incredibly screwy magic happening, because of how it's handled.

However, UC Gundam, for whatever else it is, is a giant mecha fighting show that uses it's in-universe magic as a catch all to explain everything. It's a really good giant mecha show, but it's not really all that hard as sci-fi goes.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You said yourself that Minovsky physics was a "cover-all magic bullet" in UC Gundam.

I said that it was a "magic bullet" in the same way that the various attributes of Dune's Holtzman effect are: that there are numerous things that stem from such technology, but they still possess clear-cut and defined rules, but now I retract my usage of that term since I see how "magic bullet" can be misapplied.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ghetto Edit: Again, it's not like Star Trek where almost any piece of their technology can be recalibrated or reconfigured to do almost anything. In UC Gundam, we never see the White Base reconfigure it's jamming equipment or craft system as a magically improvised weapon like the Enterprise's navigational deflector has. That's being a magic bullet.

[Starglider]

Ghetto Edit: Again, it's not like Star Trek where almost any piece of their technology can be recalibrated or reconfigured to do almost anything. In UC Gundam, we never see the White Base reconfigure it's jamming equipment or craft system as a magically improvised weapon like the Enterprise's navigational deflector has. That's being a magic bullet.

I put that under the heading of 'not being fucking stupid', or perhaps if I'm feeling generous 'realistic technology'. Star Wars manages that for the most part too, excepting the Force which is nontechnological anyway - in fact Trek is the only really serious high profile technobabble offender (well, plus possibly Dr Who, but that doesn't have the same pretensions of seriousness).

SG-1 is a step ahead of this because it actually shows a) the characters using the scientific method to investigate new phenomena and b) the development process behind the creation of new technology, including the difficulty of reverse-engineering, realistically limited prototypes, and the unreliability of jury-rigging solutions. When technology is combined in novel ways to solve problems, it is done so in a logical fashion; there is no pulling random capabilities out of nowhere the way trek does.

However none of these are hard sci-fi. Hard sci-fi implies real world plausibility; little or no handwavium.

[Adrian Laguna]

What Spanky is trying to get at is that Gundam, at least Universal Century Gundam and maybe Gundam Wing (G Gundam and Seed are kinda screwy if you ask me), are highly internally consistent. It is nice when a sci-fi universe, even when it uses made-up science, follows logical rules.

Gundam is also, however, fairly hard in some respects. You know, kinda like B5 which has its hard elements and soft elements? Gundam has no magical artificial gravity, there are no energy shields, no inertial compensators, etc. If nothing else, the aspects of the show that deal with the colonization of space are actually hard sci-fi, even if the space war aspects aren't.

[VF5SS]

I recently watched a 1990 film called Robot Jox, which is an insanely dated campy story set after a Third World War where the worlds superpowers settle their differences by having giant... mecha do battle in an arena, complete with spectators.

It's as ridiculously lame as it sounds, but at one point the robots both take flight (little boosters in the feet, of course) and take the fight into space. Hilariously, the film then switched to realistic mode and correctly had no sound in space. Obviously, there were still giant mecha up in space fighting each other with melee weapons, but at least they tried.

OH NOES MECHA MAKES THIS MOVIE SUCK! Christ get over it. That was a fun movie. I did like how the puppet and model work made most of the weapons and robot movements make some sort of physical sense. Except the slow ass rocket punches (which somehow made the Russian robot blow up), but given it was a high budget B-movie I can't expect mach speed flying fists.

[Starglider]

OH NOES MECHA MAKES THIS MOVIE SUCK! Christ get over it. That was a fun movie.

You know it's been a long time since the HAB has had a.... SHOW TRIAL!

[Admiral Valdemar]

You know it's been a long time since the HAB has had a.... SHOW TRIAL!

My esteemed colleague here has a point. We should round up these Gundam and other mecha fans, post haste.

Except regarding Transformers, for the coolness factor negates complex giant robot-itis.

[VF5SS]

The hypocrisy of the Star Wars and Transformers fans knows no bounds. Haha

[Drooling Iguana]

You know it's been a long time since the HAB has had a.... SHOW TRIAL! :)

My esteemed colleague here has a point. We should round up these Gundam and other mecha fans, post haste.

Except regarding Transformers, for the coolness factor negates complex giant robot-itis.

I think the key factor is that Transformers are living beings rather than simply vehicles, and thus a roughly humanoid shape makes sense for mobility, tool use, etc. Notice that many of them will immediately take on a more suitable form when going into battle.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Well, yeah, that's what I gathered. They're not piloted by men, which is good, because we should stick to tanks and powered armour if anything. You get the benefits of being a sports car for speed and stability and a bipedal robot for mobility and tool use.