Yoda(AotC) vs... Sauron

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-12 03:34pm

You knew this was coming.

It has been continuing since Saruman vs Dooku.

Sauron the Dark Lord of Mordor

Vs.

Yoda the leader of the Jedi Council.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 03:52pm

Well, Sauron is definitely cooler-looking. And he swings a vicious mace

But does he actually engage in combat under normal conditions? He got blind-sided and killed by a guy with a sword, after all (yes, I know, he came back, the One Ring, he's immortal, Mount Doom, boo-yah bad guy, blah blah blah). But do we really know anything about his abilities as a warrior? I don't know if this question can be answered.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-12 03:54pm

Only by a character sheilded guy though, because tolkien couldn't really say "and then Sauron killed them all"

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-12 05:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:Well, Sauron is definitely cooler-looking. And he swings a vicious mace But does he actually engage in combat under normal conditions? He got blind-sided and killed by a guy with a sword, after all (yes, I know, he came back, the One Ring, he's immortal, Mount Doom, boo-yah bad guy, blah blah blah). But do we really know anything about his abilities as a warrior? I don't know if this question can be answered.

Thats in the movie.
In Silmarillion it took Gil-Galad and Elendil to take Sauron down and they both died in the battle (Isildur just cut the finger off Sauron's corps to get the ring), but since we don't know how tough Gil- Galad and Elendil were drawing some conclusions about Saurons strength form that isn't really possible. Although Silmarilion does give the impression that they were both great warriors. There is a line about how no-one could resist Aeglos the spear of Gil-Galad and that Narsil the sword of Elendil filled the hearts of orcs and men with fear (I don't the book at hand right now, so this is just from memory).

Sauron is also more often referred to as a sorcerer then a warrior, he has also showed some shepeshifting abilities (in the battle with Huan) and is ofcourse a Maia and perhaps one of the most powerful of them. Though it is to be noted that he lost on both occasions he engaged someone in personal combat (to Huan and later to Gil-Galad and Elendil).

Well in any case I'm giving this one to Sauron.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-12 05:44pm

Sauron will likely win, unless Yoda can use the force to take the Ring. In which case the new dark lord will be very hard to take seriously...

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-12 06:09pm

Yoda would drop a big rock on his head. Or fling him into a pit of molten lava. Or steal the Ring from his hand. Or throw his lightsaber at him (viable tactic, Luke used this to kill a dozen Noghri Death Commandoes in HtH).

Either way, Yoda wins.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 06:23pm

Yoda may be hard to take seriously, but like the Dreaded Rabbit of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, he should be able to easily accomplish what a couple of elves could. If a telepathic alien with TK abilities and a lightsabre wouldn't qualify as a "hero" with a "magic sword" in Middle Earth, who the fuck would?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-01-12 06:25pm

I'm pretty sure Sauron could shrug off even force lightning, and if Yoda does happen to kill Sauron, he'll just end up getting corrupted by the ring and bringing him back to life.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 08:10pm

The lightsabre could turn the ring into a puddle. It's just a simple matter of heat, and any lightsabre that can cut through three feet of SW armour in a fraction of a second can turn that ring into a puddle in the blink of an eye.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-12 08:16pm

It will soon be claimed that it takes more than heat, somehow. This is why I stay the fuck out of LOTR debates.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 08:23pm

Howedar wrote:It will soon be claimed that it takes more than heat, somehow. This is why I stay the fuck out of LOTR debates.

And then they'll start quoting all of this Silmarillion shit about Maiar, and various super-deities who will intervene.

Trekkies ----> Technobabble ----> Q
LOTR fans ----> Magic ----> Maiar/Eru

Same damned thing.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-12 08:26pm

The lightsabre could turn the ring into a puddle. It's just a simple matter of heat, and any lightsabre that can cut through three feet of SW armour in a fraction of a second can turn that ring into a puddle in the blink of an eye.

But I thought the whole point was that the Ring was magic- because of the magic, it could only be melted in the place where it was created, which is why it wasn't dropped into a smelting pit in the middle of Rivendell.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-01-12 08:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Howedar wrote:It will soon be claimed that it takes more than heat, somehow. This is why I stay the fuck out of LOTR debates.
And then they'll start quoting all of this Silmarillion shit about Maiar, and various super-deities who will intervene.

Trekkies ----> Technobabble ----> Q
LOTR fans ----> Magic ----> Maiar/Eru

Same damned thing.

Why would they? They all hate Sauron, and Morgoth's off somewhere floating in The Void by now.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 08:54pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
The lightsabre could turn the ring into a puddle. It's just a simple matter of heat, and any lightsabre that can cut through three feet of SW armour in a fraction of a second can turn that ring into a puddle in the blink of an eye.
But I thought the whole point was that the Ring was magic- because of the magic, it could only be melted in the place where it was created, which is why it wasn't dropped into a smelting pit in the middle of Rivendell.

No, Mount Doom was the hottest place in Middle Earth. Gandalf was it was the only place that was hot enough now, although some of the ancient dragons might have been able to generate enough heat too. In any case, if a lightsabre showed up in Middle Earth, don't you think they would regard it as magic?

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-01-12 11:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:
No, Mount Doom was the hottest place in Middle Earth. Gandalf said it was the only place that was hot enough now,

He never said that. He said it was the only place where it could be destroyed

Darth Wong wrote:although some of the ancient dragons might have been able to generate enough heat too.

actually, he said that no dragons have existed that could destroy the one ring "for it was made by Sauron"

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2003-01-13 10:51am

In the book it was the heat. In the movie it was because that's where it was forged. So the question becomes whether you like the book or movie explanation. I prefer the book, because the movies bug me on a deep level.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-13 11:22am

FireNexus wrote:In the book it was the heat.

Where in the book was it said that it was the heat?
I can't remeber sucha passage.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-13 11:38am

Well regardless (I still remember it saying the One Ring can only be destroyed in Mt. Doom or along that line) I still love Sauron's armour and mace in the films. Coupled with that music and eery silence before he kicks total arse!

Gooo, Sauron!

Chris Lee is the most powerful though, he infiltrated LotR AND SW, the two biggest movie franchises out there.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-13 11:54am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Chris Lee is the most powerful though, he infiltrated LotR AND SW, the two biggest movie franchises out there.

+ he is ...

Dracula.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-13 12:04pm

Therefore, despite not being a factor in this debate, Lee wins.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2003-01-16 07:06am

Sir Sirius wrote:
FireNexus wrote:In the book it was the heat.
Where in the book was it said that it was the heat?
I can't remeber sucha passage.

It was only implied: Gandalf said that it had been speculated that dragonfire could destroy a Ring of Power, but that not even Ancalagon the Black (the most powerful dragon ever) could have destroyed Sauron's One Ring. But of course, you could also say that dragonfire is inherently magical.

Another matter is, how hot is a lightsabre? It's made of plasma contained by a firce field, right? So one could assume that it's, for example, about as hot as the surface of the Sun (~6000 degrees Kelvin). Sauron withstood more than that in the Fall of Númenor, when the Eagles of Manwë bombarded the island with thunder and lightning. Their bolts blew up the dome of the gigantic temple of Melkor Sauron was residing in, but failed to harm Sauron (who stood up and took the bolts to further convince the Númenoreans of his godhood) in any way. And lightning can go up to 30000 degrees Kelvin in heat.

Dargos · Post by **Dargos** » 2003-01-16 07:40am

Darth Wong wrote:Well, Sauron is definitely cooler-looking. And he swings a vicious mace But does he actually engage in combat under normal conditions? He got blind-sided and killed by a guy with a sword, after all (yes, I know, he came back, the One Ring, he's immortal, Mount Doom, boo-yah bad guy, blah blah blah). But do we really know anything about his abilities as a warrior? I don't know if this question can be answered.

Well...if you take the Silm. as cannon(and according to your posts in the Yoda vs Gandalf thred you do not) and LOTR. Every time Sauron gets into a physical confrontation he gets his ass handed to him. So, if it comes down to physical combat. Yoda wins hands down.

Dargos · Post by **Dargos** » 2003-01-16 07:47am

BTW.. the One Ring can only be destroyed by the Fires of Mt. Doom because THAT is where it was created.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2003-01-16 08:15am

Dargos wrote: Well...if you take the Silm. as cannon(and according to your posts in the Yoda vs Gandalf thred you do not) and LOTR. Every time Sauron gets into a physical confrontation he gets his ass handed to him. So, if it comes down to physical combat. Yoda wins hands down.

Well, since there have only been two noteworthy physical confrontations, I wouldn't quite draw that conclusion.

One was against Huan, the Hound of Valinor, who Sauron in his werewolf form actually sent running in terror. Unfortunately, it was prophecied that Huan be defeated by someone else, so a stroke of luck allowed Lúthien to distract Sauron long enough for Huan to get a free shot to lock jaws around his throat.

The other was, of course, against Elendil and Gil-Galad, who were, of course, backed up by an entire army.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2003-01-16 10:09am

Jaffa wrote:
The other was, of course, against Elendil and Gil-Galad, who were, of course, backed up by an entire army.

Yet Sauron wasn't fighting the entire army AND Gil-Galad and Elendil like he was in the movie. It was a duel of champions. Sauron on the Mordor side, Elendil on the Man side, and Gil-Galad for the Elves. Elrond makes a point in mentioning this somewhere, saying "Only Isildur stood behind his father, as Cirdan and I with Gil-Galad" or something similar.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Yoda(AotC) vs... Sauron

Who walks off?

Yoda(AotC) vs... Sauron