Palpatine's RedGuard vs. the Sardaukar (Dune)

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-11 11:56pm

oh, and if you're there, you dont know why Ive been getting

"unauthorised user protocol" pages when going on SD.net do you ?

no admi

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-11 11:57pm

white_rabbit wrote:I dont consider blocking blaster bolts a "force" power , they arent fast enough that a bit of blind luck and extreme skill can't create a "block"

Superhuman reflexes and skill. How much do you know about human reaction time, rabbit?

Either Kanos is superhuman, or he has some Force sensitivity. No human can do that, 80's ninja movies excepted.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-12 12:13am

Darth Wong wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:I dont consider blocking blaster bolts a "force" power , they arent fast enough that a bit of blind luck and extreme skill can't create a "block"
Superhuman reflexes and skill. How much do you know about human reaction time, rabbit?

Either Kanos is superhuman, or he has some Force sensitivity. No human can do that, 80's ninja movies excepted.

Not much more than your average guy, but the guy is trained, hes undoubtable got reflexive moves that have been "hardwired" in so to speak by his training, Assuming that they recieve some form of martial art, part of which is often establishing of such reflexes, which is a good bet judging by the combat style of the IG, then he could have just enough of an edge to perform the sort of blocks he did.

1 non-required block, as well as a shot that was clearly going nowhere near him, he blocks the aim of the rifle, not the bolt itself.

Im debating against my opnion here, but I have considered it, and talked

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-12 12:17am

In close-in fighting, you have less than one tenth of a second to react, and that assumes you can move your pike to block in zero seconds, which is obviously ridiculous. Realistically, you must start moving your pike at pretty much the moment he fires, if not before.

Now, since human reaction time is roughly 0.4 seconds, do you see the problem?

http://www.gecdsb.on.ca/sub/projects/ps ... action.htm

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-12 12:34am

Darth Wong wrote:In close-in fighting, you have less than one tenth of a second to react, and that assumes you can move your pike to block in zero seconds, which is obviously ridiculous. Realistically, you must start moving your pike at pretty much the moment he fires, if not before.

Now, since human reaction time is roughly 0.4 seconds, do you see the problem?

http://www.gecdsb.on.ca/sub/projects/ps ... action.htm

Yes, but as I say, Kanos only had to block the aim of the rifle/pistol, not the bolt

When he first does this, the block seems so be part of a strike, one stormy is getting slashed, and Kanos has whipped his head round to bring in the "block" on the blast from a stormy pistol, which isnt going anywere near like hitting him, which is why it could be part of an instinctive move to parry the blaster, not the beam/bolt.

then again it could be that kanos sensed the bolt and whipped around to block it, his stance isnt helpful though, later on similarly he could be construed as being about to skewer the poor stormy, blocks the hasty and slower Stormy then reverses his grip again to skewer the guy.

Why I wanted to know if there were lots more jedi-style things going on in CE:2, from what I can glean, anther force user is involved, a force witch or something, so perhaps Kanos' abilitys are more obvious, beyond parity with Jax and blasters.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-12 12:36am

Okay but when in all of the EU has anyone blocked a single blaster bolt WITHOUT the aid of the Force.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-12 12:39am

Ghost Rider wrote:Okay but when in all of the EU has anyone blocked a single blaster bolt WITHOUT the aid of the Force.

Never, to my knowledge, but with the stuff about Force pikes being "force" weapons and the Royal Guard all being force users..

My EU knowledge isnt looking that hot.

But then, it occurs to me when has a Non-jedi happened to have Extreme OTT combat training, and a weapon capable of deflecting bolts ?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-12 12:44am

The thing is that sourcebooks state the IG are capable of low level Force feats...CE indicates that they have to be on some low level parity of Darth Vader.

No such training is going to ever put you DV's level unless something unknown element is involved that has never been introduced into the SW series or the Force.

Plus we have never seen anyone without using the Force block said Blaster shot.

Thus either the IG have low level Force powers or they have some unheard of modifications and training that has never been shown or introduced or even theorized persay.

Which one does Occam's Razor favor?

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-12 12:53am

Ghost Rider wrote:The thing is that sourcebooks state the IG are capable of low level Force feats...CE indicates that they have to be on some low level parity of Darth Vader.

No such training is going to ever put you DV's level unless something unknown element is involved that has never been introduced into the SW series or the Force.

Plus we have never seen anyone without using the Force block said Blaster shot.

Thus either the IG have low level Force powers or they have some unheard of modifications and training that has never been shown or introduced or even theorized persay.

Which one does Occam's Razor favor?

Low level parity ?

Hmm, that sentance just doesnt ring right
Hell, Vader still took Kanos apart anyway

And, I wasnt aware that there were more extensive sources on the normal IG, please remember this.

I dont know why Palpatine didnt just give em Sabers.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-12 12:56am

I'm saying anyone who can stand more than three seconds against Vader speaks of either some unknown augmentation of some low level Force ability(Kanos in particular didn't but one of them did...and actually blocked a few of Vader's blows)

And not saying you not knowing...just saying CE showed that the IG have some low level basic Force powers.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-12 01:02am

Ghost Rider wrote:I'm saying anyone who can stand more than three seconds against Vader speaks of either some unknown augmentation of some low level Force ability(Kanos in particular didn't but one of them did...and actually blocked a few of Vader's blows)

And not saying you not knowing...just saying CE showed that the IG have some low level basic Force powers.

Well, to be honest, Burr Danid didnt really stand against Vader, he got slaughtered, and vader was playing with him

And Kanos got taken out with a single blow.

Although, looking at that scene, Kanos may have tked his nagitana to his hand.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-12 01:51am

white_rabbit wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Doesn't fucking matter dipshit. The Sourcebooks already told us ALL OF THE FUCKING GUARD have Force powers. Therefore your complaints are irrelevent.

Jax had more training because he was the brief-time pupil of an ersatz Sith Lord.

Wow, insults from a moron..

how painful.

Yah see, if I had those bastard source books, I would have known this, much like I would have known that force pikes arent actually the Vibro/shock weapons that the tech book says they are.

What fucking complaints ? you mean, when I ask for information ?

Fuck off, hangers on are just annoying. although you at least gave info that I asked for.

No shitface. I said this no less then three time IIRC. It had become irrelevent for you to whine about it again by the time I quoted you and told you you were being stupid. Please stop being stupid.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-12 02:24am

Man, you guys got carried away! ; )

Anyhow, the term "force" in force pike doesn't necessarily mean it requires the force to use it (or with any skill).

I had always assume that a "Force pike" was a type of vibro/electric shock type weapon. That is, the weapon is capable of being a simple blade/spear or inducing a shock effect, or vibrating to cut through metal/flesh.

For example, in ROTJ, the two Gammorean guards that accost Luke carry weapons of this sort.

Now, granted, in the EU literature, its claimed that ALL of Jabba's men carried blade weapons that had vibro abilities, but that most of the guards were "too proud" (or some other BS) to turn them "on" and use them properly. Which seems akin to a gangster hiring thugs who carry guns, but are too proud to use them for anything except slapping people around with them. Was Jabba that stupid to hire thugs like that?

I am not saying that a Force Pike is not more dangerous in the hands of a force sensitive than in the hands of a non-force user. Obviously, we that Han Solo can use a lightsaber, but not with the skill a Jedi could.

We've established that the Red Guards do have force abilities (from the EU), which would make them able to block blaster shots with the pikes (the pikes must have some kind of special magneticly sealed material on the heads or some other property that allows this to happen).. otherwise, why can't they just block shots with their hands, like Vader? Or maybe it's simply easier to do this.. but you'd think the spears would be melted, unless it had some special tech built in.

Perhaps the heads of the spears can "attract" shots that are incoming, then reverse with a kind of repulsor beam to push the shots away.

Of course, having the force would make it much easier to field the shots back and forth.

Could they do the same thing with physical bullets?

Anyway, if we forgot about Crimson Empire for a second.. I wonder if it would be possible that the Imp guards are merely specially commissioned Jedi under those outfits? After all, it wouldn't be too surprising if the Supreme Chancellor/Emperor had a personal guard from their ranks?

But, then again, he has the Red guards after the Jedi purges, and it would seem odd for him to carry a detachment of Dark Jedi around (potential rivals to his throne)... EU material nonewithstanding.

Anyway, obviously the main body of info on what the Red Guards can do comes from the EU. Would it be acceptable in the same way to take the Saradaukar material from their "expanded universe" (Ie: the Brian Herbert/KJA novels.. which the estate considers canonical, despite their inconsistencies)?

I haven't read those novels, so I can't comment on them personally, however.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-12 06:52am

Anyway, obviously the main body of info on what the Red Guards can do comes from the EU. Would it be acceptable in the same way to take the Saradaukar material from their "expanded universe" (Ie: the Brian Herbert/KJA novels.. which the estate considers canonical, despite their inconsistencies)?

Inconsistancies like Las-guns suddenly becoming an everyday weapon, because KJA cant contemplate scifi without shiny guns..

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-12 09:48am

There's far worse than that.. check the link:

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~gh248/dunefaq/index.html (scroll down to the "inconsistencies" part)

But where it doesn't contradict the prior canon, why not?

For fun, he's the official databank entry on Red Guards:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organi ... rd/eu.html

Claims their armor is form fitting and a "quantum leap" beyond Stormtrooper armor.

This page claims that force pikes uses similar technology to vibro axes/blades:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/techno ... ax/eu.html

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-12 09:50am

Technically, you'd think that on some place like Arrakis, where shield use isn't widespread, lasguns would be in much more common use.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-12 11:09am

Maintenence.

Literally Arrakis just screwed with all machienery let alone something as delicate as a Las Pistol.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-12 01:03pm

Kurgan wrote:There's far worse than that.. check the link:

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~gh248/dunefaq/index.html (scroll down to the "inconsistencies" part)

But where it doesn't contradict the prior canon, why not?

As annoying as those inconsitancies are they don't seem to be much worse than some of the contracitions and mistakes Frank Herbert himself made. Maybe a few more but not are irreconsilable.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-12 01:32pm

Claims their armor is form fitting and a "quantum leap" beyond Stormtrooper armor.

Well, its form fitting alright, but seems to consist mainly of a segmented torso section, shoulder/neck guard etc plus helmet and a lot of body glove, although the body glove may have armour plates underneath it

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-13 03:51am

As annoying as those inconsitancies are they don't seem to be much worse than some of the contracitions and mistakes Frank Herbert himself made. Maybe a few more but not are irreconsilable.

That's true.. it could be said that since Herbert's books cover many thousands of years, the history could have been "lost" or "revised" by unscrupulous rulers.

I know that at several points characters recall "ancestral memories" through their prescient powers, of course they could always be lying about what they say.

Example: Absolute dictator says to somebody "I had this vision..." what are they going to do say "umm, no, you're wrong dude, it happened like this..." ; )

But yeah, I guess Herbert's main problem is that he's dead, so he can't fix any of his mistakes. Even Star Wars isn't immune to these kinds of problems or Star Trek (even when Gene was still alive).

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-13 03:54am

Maintenence.

Literally Arrakis just screwed with all machienery let alone something as delicate as a Las Pistol.

You mean like sand getting into things and wearing away at it? Sure, but after a few decades on the planet, equipment could be modified and adapted more to the climate.

The main problem appears to be with shields, due both the the heavy static charges in the air (caused by storms) and the worms (which are attracted to shields).

So if you use shields on Arrakis, you use them on solid rock (where worms can't go) and they consume much greater amounts of power than usual. The "House Shield" around the main base in Arakeen seems to be an exception because of the "Shield Wall" a heavy rock formation that surroundes the area. As far as Lasguns go, the main concern was not to use them in an area where shields were in use (or vice versa) not that they didn't work in the desert. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-13 06:22am

Ghost Rider wrote:True...given that Leia and Luke have both survived shots...so aside from chest or head wounds...I believe anyone could survive a Blaster shot.

Not when their torso is boiled from the inside, a blaster of shot medium/high power would fuck you up good.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-13 06:33am

Darth Wong wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Do you enjoy hyperbole or do you have evidence?
Actually, Kir Kanos shoots down a TIE Interceptor with his sidearm. Un-fucking-believable, given the other reports of small-arms ineffectiveness against TIE fighters.

Was this a hull or window shot?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-13 11:16am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Was this a hull or window shot?

Window shot.

And as for the Lasgun problem partially shield, partially also they commented it being delicate as well. They said the Harkonnens had repair stations everywhere because of the sand problem for both the shield and their lasgun use.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-13 11:30am

Is there a screenshot of this anywhere?