Argument regarding homosexuality

[kheegster]

I had an ICQ argument with a Christian friend of mine regarding gays:

eWe 12/01/20 09:11 oh
that's okay
it's not like you're.... you know...special

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:12 me??? not special???

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:14 damn...u just deflated my ego

eWe 12/01/20 09:14 i mean you're not a faggot
`

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:14 ceh....haiyoh

eWe 12/01/20 09:15 you don't cross-dress

eWe 12/01/20 09:15 gah

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:15 it's not exactly socially acceptable to
cross-dress in msia u know...

eWe 12/01/20 09:15 i know i know

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:16 well, over here in uk there homosexuality is
pretty accepted

eWe 12/01/20 09:17 homosexuality is pretty much accepted just about
anywhere nowadays

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:18 u tell ppl ur gay in msia and ppl will treat u as
a freak...not here

eWe 12/01/20 09:18 sigh
the world is going back to what it used to be
years ago

eWe 12/01/20 09:19 history repeats itself

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:19 eh?

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:19 if u are going to say gloomy, pls don't for
now...


JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:19 i'm beginning to get into the atmosphere of my
writing

eWe 12/01/20 09:19 well
homosexuality in the days before Renaissance was
pretty much accepted
especially in Greek ages

eWe 12/01/20 09:20 i saw a documentary which featured the Olympics
men fell in love with each other and their beauty

eWe 12/01/20 09:20 and yeah
sorry if i ruined your piece

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:21 no prob...thought u were going to go on about
apocalypse and the end of times etc...
well, homosexuality is quite common in lots of
ancient societies, until u christians came along
and spoilt things

eWe 12/01/20 09:23 then again, would you like it if some guy came
and asked you whether you want to go to bed with
him?
well
homosexuality isn't accepted in most Asian
cultures not only Christianity, For the Chinese,
it only happened between the eunuchs

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:24 to the first question: i would be flattered,
frankly, but of course i would say no
true to the second point...
i've don't find homosexuality disgusting, just
that it isn't what i go for, that's all

eWe 12/01/20 09:25 Christians don't find homosexuality
disgusting...of course for the bigots, it's
different'
it's just wrong, and urm... yeah, God doesn't
like it and well, there is the opposite sex, why
live with your own kind?

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:26 for most gays, it's not a matter of choice you
know...

eWe 12/01/20 09:27 well, if it's not a matter of choice then it's
stupid
all humans have the right to choose
it's biblical to choose

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:28 some ppl are just gay lah, they can't help it...
if i wanted to be gay i can't, simply because i
don't like guys
if a gay wanted to go straight he can't either,
for the reasont that he doesn't like girls

eWe 12/01/20 09:29 well
i don't think it's a matter of whether you like
girls or not
most of the time it just isn't
and if you probe deeper
you'd know why

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:30 eh?

eWe 12/01/20 09:31 nvm...
i've heard of an ex-gay's testimony
and most gays are what they are not because
they're forced to..
if it's not biological, they're not forced to be
gays


JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:32 one person's testimony does not apply to everyone
u know...there are shades of homosexuality as
well, it's possible that this fellow isn't that
gay

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:34 in any case there are some animals that exhibit
homosexual tendencies also, so we know there is
at least some biological basis

eWe 12/01/20 09:35 well, all i know is no one is born gay
you can't change the way you look, but you can
change the way you think, behave, and feel
it's a matter of choice
and humans shouldn't be compared to animals
animals don't think, they don't know what they're
doing, whatever they do, it's all for survival,
we humans, don't need to fight with lions and
other species daily


eWe 12/01/20 09:35 i don't see you wanting to be gay

eWe 12/01/20 09:36 the world's male majority still consists of
heterosexuals
so if it's not a matter of choice to become gay
i don't know what it is

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:38 that's because i have no urge to become gay...but
some ppl it's just different...when they are
young they already prefer playing with girls,
etc, and then later on they feel attracted to
guys instead of girls...
there IS a biological basis to this...when i see
straight porn i get aroused whether i consciously
want to be aroused or not, but gay porn does
nothing to me...with gays it's the other way
around

eWe 12/01/20 09:40 but is it a matter of being aroused?
i mean hormones can get attracted at nearly
anything
if you know how to make it
i mean, an active pervert can get high on
anything that reminds him of sex

eWe 12/01/20 09:41 and how would you explain that some peopl have
different fetishes
for food, and shoes, and clothes, and mosquitoes
and stuff like that
is it biological?
is it biological to have animal sex then?

eWe 12/01/20 09:41 is it biological to masturbate?


JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:42 that it is does not have a distinct biological
purpose does not mean it is wrong.
we get pleasure from eating food that have no
health value whatsoever, from buying cars just
that are not merely for transport etc...


JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:43 and i can assure you that it's better to
masturbate than not to

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:43 for guys at least

eWe 12/01/20 09:45 so if it's just a matter of pleasure
then it must be a matter of choice too.. right?
i mean you aren't forced to masturbate
some people would if they can't control their
hormones
but most of the time it just isn't the case
some people think it's hormones, when most of the
time, they want the easy way out, and they think
they're forced to...
oh well, i like to believe that we all choose to
be who we are
and that no one should force you to become anyone
you aren't
nature doesn't, so why should simple
non-arousements should?

eWe 12/01/20 09:46 you could become gay
but you aren't

eWe 12/01/20 09:46 you don't have to become sexually aroused at guys
to become gay

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:46 WHAT? that's the most ridiculous statement i've
heard

eWe 12/01/20 09:47 well, at the rate of gays appearing
it's possible

eWe 12/01/20 09:47 have you thought of loving guys?

eWe 12/01/20 09:47 you haven't...
why shouldn't you?

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:47 maybe it could be just because society is just
becoming open minded enough for them to come out
into the open instead of on the sly


JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:47 i have

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:47 i have considered whether i have gay feelings
i don't

eWe 12/01/20 09:47 how would you know?

eWe 12/01/20 09:48 does your hormones tell you?

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:48 because i DON'T
are you trying to insist that i can become gay if
i feel like it?

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:48 my hormones don't tell me anything...what's
inside me does

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:48 and inside some ppl it's different

eWe 12/01/20 09:51 so what's inside you is just figurative?
therefore it's relative
now let me give you an example,
you find yourself not being able to wake up for
class but you force yourself too, because you
feel it's important, so your body follows your
mind and then you wake up

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:51 so in other words u r saying that if a gay really
wants to become straight he can?

eWe 12/01/20 09:52 yes he can


eWe 12/01/20 09:52 it's a natural state to become straight

eWe 12/01/20 09:52 we are each born with different genders

eWe 12/01/20 09:53 have you ever heard or know a gay WANTING to be
straight?
you don't right?

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:54 yes i do...when ppl get ostracised and JAILED for
being gay, there is a huge reason to go
straight....

eWe 12/01/20 09:54 but what if there isn't?

eWe 12/01/20 09:54 like in UK
do you see gays wanting to be straight?

eWe 12/01/20 09:55 people say, "why not?"


JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:55 if they wanted to be straight they can go
straight away...there are plenty of 'loose' girls
around u know

eWe 12/01/20 09:55 so
hey
it's a matter of choice!

eWe 12/01/20 09:56 anyway
i've gtg now
see you!

JeDiKnighT 12/01/20 09:58 it can't be a matter of choice if a normal
straight like me can't even FORCE myself to have
sex with another guy...


A rather lousy and convoluted argument from my part, I think, but then I was distracted by several other chats going on at once. There's a very flawed logic working on her part here, I know, but can someone sum it up for me?

[kojikun]

If theres no biological reason for homosexuality then theres no biological reason for heterosexuality.

If anything its a combination of chemical reactions (scent etc) and psychology. Meaning, gay peoples biology reacts to the scents of various things (like guy sweat) differently. Theres also the environment factor. If you grow up constantly being told gay is bad, its not likely youre gay, atleast not conciously aware of it.

And why guys when theres girls? Girls dont have dicks.

[Antediluvian]

All your friend has done is repeat the "it's a choice" argument without backing it up.

Homosexuality, and indeed all sexuality, is more complicated than that.

Plus, his attempt to dismiss animal homosexuality is feeble at best.

The presence of AH destroys the "unnatural" argument, and the anti-homosexuals know it.

You might bring up that human beings are animals as well.

[Lord Pounder]

I particilularily liked the bit about humans aren't animals, animals don't think. Horses are quite intelligent creatures and they can be gay.

[InnerBrat]

And why guys when theres girls? Girls dont have dicks.

<sigh> Yes, I know. but we have our good points, too.

[Exonerate]

He's nothing. Another guy I saw on a forum we invaded said something along the lines of
"Homosexuality is a sin
all sin is a choice
Therefore, homosexuality is a choice."

[Dahak]

My personal favourite:
"well, if it's not a matter of choice then it's
stupid
all humans have the right to choose
it's biblical to choose "
---
Choice. My ass...

[SyntaxVorlon]

There is a great deal of evidence to suggest that sexual preference is almost entirely based in biology. The part of the brain that regulates hormones is a different size in men than it is in women. People with an abnormally(rare, not unhealthy) sized area in their hypocampus(excuse spelling) are more likely to exude charactoristics toward one end of the spectrum. This also means that people with this section slightly larger or smaller in either case, will be attracted to both sexes. But society in the US is more stacked toward complete homo or hetero sexuality. Look at Europeans, the bi population is in orders of magnitude large than the homosexual group.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Bisexual and gay fruit flies have also been engineered in labs

[kojikun]

Yeah but i mean cmon, theyre FRUITS by nature! LOL

They reacted the way they did because of pheromone reaction changes. Its obvious that biology is the cause for potential homosexuality. Nothings gonna make you go "Oh dick!", its going to make you go "Oh, dick! Thats associated with the smells i like!" The same way youre not born liking pizza, but you smell it and then associate the image of a pizza with the pleasant smell.

[Lord Pounder]

And why guys when theres girls? Girls dont have dicks.

<sigh> Yes, I know. but we have our good points, too.

I know chicks with dicks. Some are quite sexy too.

[InnerBrat]

And why guys when theres girls? Girls dont have dicks.

<sigh> Yes, I know. but we have our good points, too.

I know chicks with dicks. Some are quite sexy too.

Girls. Not chicks. Real girls. OK?

[Frank Hipper]

Your friend obviously cannot justify condemning homosexuality without there being a choice involved.

eWe 12/01/20 09:27 well, if it's not a matter of choice then it's
stupid
all humans have the right to choose
it's biblical to choose

And yes, Dahak, that was my favorite, also. "well if it's not a matter of choice then it's stupid" is quite possibly the most eloquent and insightfull statement made on the subject I've ever heard.

The only people who choose are bi-sexual. Period. End.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Fundie type have to believe it is a choice, cause if it is biology then it starts to question ideas like we were made in the image of the creator. The creator is infallible, etc.

[kojikun]

The only people who choose are bi-sexual. Period. End.

How that then? What says that the genes that are turned on to make one gay or straight must be on one at a time? if both are on, you would be bisexual. If neither, you'd be asexual. Whicher those genes.

[Frank Hipper]

The only people who choose are bi-sexual. Period. End.

How that then? What says that the genes that are turned on to make one gay or straight must be on one at a time? if both are on, you would be bisexual. If neither, you'd be asexual. Whicher those genes.

It has yet to be proven to be genetic. Biological causes do not mean genetic causes, per se.
And, uhm, "Whicher those genes"?........

[kojikun]

:: mental lapse with that whicher thing. LOL

Biological causes could still produce a bisexual person. Youre assuming exclucivity, that if you get hard from boys, you cant from girls, etc. theres nothing to suggest this, and every reason to believe that simulatneous triggering is possible. Its not like theres a switch that says "Girls < - > Boys", its most likely a trigger that responds to various chemicals, and which determines who you get hard for.

But like i said earlier, theres no biological way for a person to pop out of the womb and say "I like dick!", it doesnt work that way. It is, however, possible for the person to be born with an affinity for male-scents and the association of those scents with men later in life determines the orientation, which would explain why you can LATER say "I like dick!" and not have to have those scents -- the association is firmly in place.

Like i said, its probably like pizza. Youre not born liking or disliking, but you ARE born with a predisposition to having positive or negative reactions towards the olfactory stimuli, and the association of those plesent smells with the familiar look of pizza is what would make you like pizza. Only then would the image of pizza conjure up those smells and make your mouth water.

[kojikun]

thats actually a thought, bisexual people may be when male scents are associated with females and vice versa, because in either case being around the sex you ARE reactive to would still get you hard, even if you associate that with the other sex. That would mean you get arroused to the origin sex, even tho youre associating that chemical with the other sex, and would therefore like BOTH, to varying degrees, and might lead to mere bicuriosity or full blown reassociation of the chemical with the origin sex. And if you are reactive to both chemicals to varying degrees you automatically get bisexuality.

If youve ever read ringworld, you might like this analogy: Imagine if you were tasped whenever you were around guys. Soon enough youd be DYING to be around guys all the time and would fall in love with guys. The chemicals are like a natural automatic tasp.

[The Dark]

He's nothing. Another guy I saw on a forum we invaded said something along the lines of
"Homosexuality is a sin
all sin is a choice
Therefore, homosexuality is a choice."

Well, it's an A=B, B=C, thus A=C argument. However, I'm not sure I agree with either A or B. On a 5-1 scale (5 being definitely true, 1 being definitely false), I would put statement A at a 2 and B at a 2.5.

I need to get the video of my pastor preaching from last December. He said something along the lines of "I am so tired of fundamentalists misinterpreting the Bible for their own ends." I just loved that a minister would be bold enough to say that, particularly as I'm pretty sure we've got a couple fundies in our congregation.

[Frank Hipper]

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:14 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:: mental lapse with that whicher thing. LOL

Biological causes could still produce a bisexual person. Youre assuming exclucivity, that if you get hard from boys, you cant from girls, etc. theres nothing to suggest this, and every reason to believe that simulatneous triggering is possible. Its not like theres a switch that says "Girls < - > Boys", its most likely a trigger that responds to various chemicals, and which determines who you get hard for.

I never said biological causes could not produce bi-sexuality. And I'll go out on a limb to say that they do.
I assume nothing. I experience exclusivity, every day. I do not assume this is universal, or common, even. I have come to think that there IS a little curosity in everyone to a cetain extant. From one extreme to another. After all, even I've had sex with a girl. But when you're sixteen, a breeze from the right direction can give you a hard-on. And,she did not turn me on at all, it was SENSATION that gave me a stiffy.
And according to some arguments, I should be straight by now, perhaps?:D

And as to what stimuli works in arousal, it varies from person to person;

But like i said earlier, theres no biological way for a person to pop out of the womb and say "I like dick!", it doesnt work that way. It is, however, possible for the person to be born with an affinity for male-scents and the association of those scents with men later in life determines the orientation, which would explain why you can LATER say "I like dick!" and not have to have those scents -- the association is firmly in place.

Scents??? I'm a visual creature, and have always been. You're the one making assumptions here. You cannot use your own experiences or turn-ons to explain everyone's behavior. I speak from my own experiences, but DO NOT think they apply universally. I know I'm strictly gay, women do not, and have never, turn me on in the slightest. That's why I said earlier that if there's a choice involved, bi-sexuality makes that choice possible.

[kojikun]

im not using my own experience at all, im using the only possibly universal thing there is. Youre not BORN knowing what a guy is, or that a guy has a dick and that you like it. You cant be, its impossible, because knowledge requires experience and youve not had experience since prebirth. The only thing you have is chemicals and reactivity.

However, you could still achieve pure visual origin from environment, tho i doubt its very common. You may react to visuals, but chemically you probably have more to thank. Even if the chemicals dont make you horny, they could trigger associations that give rise to preference when visualizing.

[SyntaxVorlon]

The only people who choose are bi-sexual. Period. End.

How that then? What says that the genes that are turned on to make one gay or straight must be on one at a time? if both are on, you would be bisexual. If neither, you'd be asexual. Whicher those genes.

1: There is no gay gene or straight gene.
2: It's dependent on development of of a specific part of the endocryn system, thus it can be environmental just as it is genetic. The size of this gland and whether or not it functions determines body parts, but this gland itself determine sexuality, as it is wired directly into the hypocampus.
3: This gland regulates the amount of testosterone that the body produces during gestation, too much for a girl and their clitoris looks like a penis, too little for a boy and they lack or have a very small penis. Either way reconstructive surgery is best, as essentially they are still either a boy or a girl, biologically speaking, their plumbing is just messed up. Whether this effects their sexuality later on remains to be seen, mostly it has little effect.

[kojikun]

1: There is no gay gene or straight gene.

No, but there are most assuredly genes that result in responses towards males that are "normally" meant for females.

2: It's dependent on development of of a specific part of the endocryn system, thus it can be environmental just as it is genetic. The size of this gland and whether or not it functions determines body parts, but this gland itself determine sexuality, as it is wired directly into the hypocampus.

Thats what I mean. But if you are prewired to release dopamine and serotonin when you smell typically male scents, then you are guaranteed to be gay because youll become elated and euphoric (mildly) when around guys, and the serotonin would make you fall in love with them. A simple chemical response could literally make you jump a guys bones.

3: This gland regulates the amount of testosterone that the body produces during gestation, too much for a girl and their clitoris looks like a penis, too little for a boy and they lack or have a very small penis. Either way reconstructive surgery is best, as essentially they are still either a boy or a girl, biologically speaking, their plumbing is just messed up. Whether this effects their sexuality later on remains to be seen, mostly it has little effect.

And this is relevant how? I'm talking about anatomically normal humans not chemically imballanced humans.

Its entirely possible for your sexuality to be genetic, but that gene doesnt isntantly make you a flaming homo, it makes you more likely to respond a certain way to various chemicals and stimuli. How your brain ASSOCIATES those stimuli is what makes you gay or not.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Attention Darth Pounder:

You do NOT know any "chicks with dicks," you know some "dudes with boobs!
I know some dudes with boobs that don't have implants, and haven't taken hormones. The eat too much snack food! (man breasts are truly hideous things to behold.)

[Darth Wong]

I've always wondered whether these "homosexuality is a choice" guys actually look back on their adolescence and believe that they woke up one day and chose to find girls attractive, instead of just being hardwired that way.