Palpatine and the Lusankya

[Crown]

Really? Are the 'older' models from the TIE Fighter game? I don't know anything about them to be honest.

[Lazarus]

If Lusankya had a cloak why didn't Isard use it when she commanded the ship?

It may not have been there any more, it may have stopped working etc; just because the Lucy doesn't seem to have a cloak during the Bacta War doesn't mean it never had one.

Plus the crewers who landed the ship would have had to be mindfucked or killed. Remember no-one knew how Lusankya got there, not even Isard who admitted to spending quite a bit of time trying to find out how it got there, as Director of Imperial Intelligence she'd have had quite the resources to find out..

Are you picking holes in the cloak argument or Stackpole's story-writing here? The Emperor would have had to influence billions regardless of how the Lusankya got there - my point is that by cloaking the ship this number would have been in the low billions, instead of the hundreds or thousands of billions, if not more, necessitated by other ideas.

It would be impractical to place it on a large ship. Thrawn comments on this.

Well then Thrawn doesn't know his cloaking technology well enough, since the Terror had one, which is exactly the same class of ship as the Lucy.

It should be noted that the cloaking device used by Grand Admiral Thrawn was experimental one which the Emperor's scientists (under supervision by Thrawn, in fact, as we learn in TIE Fighter) created, since the source of the rare material needed for older model of cloaking devices had ran out.

Are these rare materials Stygium crystals? Since someone stated earlier that a new supply was secured by blasting the planet on which they're found into pieces and mining the debris.

[Lord Pounder]

If Lusankya had a cloak why didn't Isard use it when she commanded the ship?

It may not have been there any more, it may have stopped working etc; just because the Lucy doesn't seem to have a cloak during the Bacta War doesn't mean it never had one.

Point taken

Plus the crewers who landed the ship would have had to be mindfucked or killed. Remember no-one knew how Lusankya got there, not even Isard who admitted to spending quite a bit of time trying to find out how it got there, as Director of Imperial Intelligence she'd have had quite the resources to find out..

Are you picking holes in the cloak argument or Stackpole's story-writing here? The Emperor would have had to influence billions regardless of how the Lusankya got there - my point is that by cloaking the ship this number would have been in the low billions, instead of the hundreds or thousands of billions, if not more, necessitated by other ideas.

A little of both to be honest. Stackpole specifically stated that no-one knew how Lusankya got there, so whoever crewed it where mindwiped, killed or Palpatine used the Force to lower it. Either way there would have been more than billions of people who still could have seen something to start tongues wagging, from any officer of the Corruscant defences, civilian traffic control or any comercial ships in the area. The list is endless.

[Lazarus]

A little of both to be honest. Stackpole specifically stated that no-one knew how Lusankya got there, so whoever crewed it where mindwiped, killed or Palpatine used the Force to lower it. Either way there would have been more than billions of people who still could have seen something to start tongues wagging, from any officer of the Corruscant defences, civilian traffic control or any comercial ships in the area. The list is endless.

Well I agree the notion is perhaps somewhat retarded, but nevertheless it canonically happened and therefore there is some sort of rational explanation for how it was done. I maintain that a cloak is the best explanation.

[Connor MacLeod]

I really like how some of you "well maybe its cloaked" jokers seem to have never heard of Occam's Razor, nevermind the convoluted rationalizations you keep having to invent to prop that little theory up.

[Sea Skimmer]

Anyone who doubt that’s absurdly huge construction programs can be hidden ought to read Battleship Musashi: The Making and Sinking of the World's Biggest Battleship by Akira Yoshimura. Japan was able to build her, the world’s largest battleship, in a civilian shipyard on the edge of a city of 240,000 people and in quite considerable secrecy. The city population knew a ship was being built, but not even the type was known. Virtually nothing leaked owing to fanatical physical security and an intensive policing effort.

Breaking it into parts doesn't help: if anything, it makes the time people need to be distracted from the sky full of kilometer-size bits of spaceship floating around even longer. If you mean 'disassemble' down to small parts, you really mean 'fresh construct' which is pretty fucking unlikely. Comparing a partial-rebuild of a battle loss to reassembling a far larger ship in the middle of a major city without anyone noticing is retarded.

Have you not noticed the scale of star wars? They have freaking skyscrapers many kilometers tall, and freighters which are multiple kilometers long as well. Considering the supply needs of trillions of people on the planet, a couple hundred extra trips by big freighters over possibly several years or more would easily go unnoticed.

The hanger for the ship was probably built with an elaborate cover story, hiding it as a water reservoir or heck even a different secret military facility. The true size of the hanger was no doubt concealed by filling it with various subdivisions and floors during construction, which would be demolished later once the place was fully enclosed. The parts of the ship, even ones hundreds or thousands of meters in length would also be disguised by welding on lots of fake material to make them look like parts of another ship, or completely unrelated items.

The original construction of the ship could be hidden by simply keeping the whole Executor class semi secret. As long as no one knows how many of the things truly exist, the extra parts and assemblies aren’t going to attract undue attention. I believe it is canon that multiple yards built the class, and the disappearing parts could be explained away as having been sent to another yard.

This would mean the Emperor only needs to control the minds of the men who actually assemble the ship, along with some of the crew, which is much more within reason then a trillion people on the surface. Most of them probably got shipped off to the ass end of nowhere at random, no one would have worked on the ship start to finish, and many would have just been murdered outright.

A lot of people in the surrounding area might have had some hint that ‘something’ was going on, but that always happens with secret projects and it’s a big leap to go from ‘something’ to ‘huge hidden ship’. The Empire probably had a billion other secret facilities already the planet already, as no doubt did the Republic.

[Stark]

Doesn't the reference mention it being brought down from space? The Krytos Trap refers to inserting the ship into the city, but it could be operating from incomplete information. Is there any reference that DOESN'T describe it being 'buried'?

[Thanas]

Well then Thrawn doesn't know his cloaking technology well enough, since the Terror had one, which is exactly the same class of ship as the Lucy.

Thrawn is talking about the new cloaking device without Stygium crystals, while the Terror had an old one with crystals, iirc.

[Lord Poe]

You know what would solve this whole thing? Time travel to a time when the cities were actually being built!

[Chris OFarrell]

For what its worth, these are the passages from Krytos Trap and Isards Revenge that deal with it.

Wedge knew Super Star Destroyers had only come into service after the Battle of Yavin, which meant the Lusankya had to have been created and hidden on Courscant before the Battle of Endor. Unless the constructor droids just built it there, then built over it. The idea that a hundred square kilometer area of the planet could have been razed and rebuilt to hide a Super Star Destroyer seemed beyond belief, especialy with no one noticing the ship's insertion into the hole. Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried?

As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative -that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the witnesses- seemed that much more horrible".

Krytos Trap. Wedge reflecting as Lusankya breaks free.

"How you got it buried beneath the surface of Courscant?"

Her nose wrinkled with his use of the pre- and post- Imperial name for the world, but it took a moment or two beyond that to provide her response. "I with I knew. I know where and when the Lusankya was created, and I know when it was given to me, so I have narrowed down the possible dates for its insertion into the world, but even as director of Imperial Intelligence, I could find no clue as to how the insertion happened".

"But it had to have taken hundreds of construction droids and weeks of time. A project of that size could not have gone unnoticed".

"I would agree, unless. . .the Force is something I do not understand and cannot touch, but the Emperor could. Is it possible he drew the ship down and buried it using the Force? I suppose. Is it possible that he merely stretched his mind out and prevented anyone from noticing the ships descent? Also possible". She shook her head. "All I know is that the Emperor confided its location to me at roughly the same time its sister ship, the Executor, became operational".

A chilld ran down Corran's spine. Even unschooled as he was in the Force, he'd managed to blank the mind of a stormtrooper looking for him. If the Emperor could manage to do that for billions of people, the miracle of the Rebellion is that it succeeded at all".

Isards Revenge. Corran and Isard 'chatting'

[Lazarus]

I really like how some of you "well maybe its cloaked" jokers seem to have never heard of Occam's Razor, nevermind the convoluted rationalizations you keep having to invent to prop that little theory up.

So you're saying it's more reasonable that:

- Hundreds of trillions of people were brainwashed
- Trillions of computers, sensors, droids etc had their memories wiped
- Every person/computer/droid/sensor on every single ship/station/base in the system was wiped to prevent any sensor logs of the Lusankya being recorded
- EVERY SINGLE PIECE of visual/documentary evidence being destroyed (holographs etc)
- Shitloads of Intel operatives etc to do it, and then killing all of them

Than the Emperor using one of his cloaking devices and:
- Billions or less requiring brainwashing
- No sensor logs needing erasing
- Only construction droid logs needing erasing
- No ship logs needing erasing
- No permanent evidence (photos etc) needing to be destroyed
- Easily explainable area cleared then rebuilt

The latter is clearly the more reasonable explanation. The first is NOT more reasonable, you just haven't thought it through properly.

[Connor MacLeod]

So you're saying it's more reasonable that:

- Hundreds of trillions of people were brainwashed

Proof?

- Trillions of computers, sensors, droids etc had their memories wiped

- Every person/computer/droid/sensor on every single ship/station/base in the system was wiped to prevent any sensor logs of the Lusankya being recorded

Setting aside for a moment this is conjectural bullshit you seem to be pulling out of your ass (IE no proof), I'm also going to add that your cloaking wank does NOT absolve your "theory" of this problem:

1.) The cloaked ship has to contend with waste heat (esp. neutrino emissions) and ion stream, which the cloak will not stop. Nor will it block repulsorfields, which will trigger gravitic sensors. Nevermind CGT or mass sensors (the ship's mass won't vanish.)

I even question whether a cloaking shield would foil sensors normally applied only in an atmosphere (IE motion sensors, acoustic sensors, etc.)

2.) The ship, still having mass, will interact with its surroundings, such as the air (sound/vibration, friction, displaced air, etc.) The cloaked ship will also have to be wary of airborne vehicles colliding with the massive cloaked starship, unless you think they're just going to miss by sheer luck. For that matter, how will a cloaking shield even interact in an atmosphere (considering how shields have been seen to interact with atmospheres before.)

- EVERY SINGLE PIECE of visual/documentary evidence being destroyed (holographs etc)
- Shitloads of Intel operatives etc to do it, and then killing all of them

Wow, you just love pulling shit out of your ass, don't you? Or do you have some evidencee that this is actually a concern? Or that your cloaking masturbation even solves this?

Than the Emperor using one of his cloaking devices and:
- Billions or less requiring brainwashing

I like how you decide to ignore the evidence already explicit fact regardless of whether we include your cloak wanking in or not.

- No sensor logs needing erasing

Right! because its not as if a multi billion/trillion ton mass causes no atmospheric disruptions of any kind, or would be generating any sort of noticable ion engine or repulsor emissions! I'm also sure the designers of the cloaking device designed ot to block sound-based sensors, because as we know there is sound in space, and the threat of collision with other ships and airspeeders with a massive invisible starship is no concern at all either.

- Only construction droid logs needing erasing
- No ship logs needing erasing

And everything else you blatantly ignored which I've already highlighted.

- No permanent evidence (photos etc) needing to be destroyed

Right, because I'm sure mind clouded invididuals will want to take photos, so those need to be destroyed!

I also like how you claim on one hand that "no physical evidence" need be destroyed even though you yourself admit that some data needs to be erased (IE the construction droid data) as well as the data you blatantly ignored.

- Easily explainable area cleared then rebuilt

Which is absent from the "Palpy clouding the minds with the Force" theory as stated already how? You seem to think that you can ignore factual evidence with convoluted theories for some inane reason.

The latter is clearly the more reasonable explanation. The first is NOT more reasonable, you just haven't thought it through properly.

Yeah, right. Except for all the little bullshit you've either ignored outright or hand-waved away. I especially like how your theory fails to explain what happened to this mythical "one use" cloaking shield. You basically handwaved that way with vague nonsense, depsite the inherent idiocy of the concept.

A cloaking shield is not a "plug and play" devicec, despite what you may think. The internal volume of the ship (and its design) would need to be modified to account for it (including adding the emittors and the connections to the ship's main power.) People,d espite what you think, WOULD noticee such a modification, ,because it would have to be installed when they were building the Lusankya at KDY. Funny enough, noone ever noticed or commented on the fact that the "Executor was outfitted with a cloaking shield", but rather that both KDY and Fondor ended up claiming to build identical vessels.

Likewise, you could not just easily "remove" such a device from a massive starship like the Lusankya, nor would there be any reason to be. (The ship was meant to be an escape ship for Palpy as well as Isard's private playground - a cloaking device would be QUITE valuable in that regard. And we know Palpy kept cloaking shields on his other ships when we know they were installed.) No you just mumble vaguely that it "was taken out or maybe stopped working" despite the inherent idiocy behind such a claim (nevermind the fact it runs contrary to what we know about cloaks.)

The last and most idiotic aspect of this is the fact that you're basically shitting all over parsimony while claiming to have the "most reasonable" theory. Your theory requires a continual series of assumptions to be made to make it valid in addition to ignoring outright evidence (assumptions about how the cloak workds, ignoring issues like atmospheric disturbances of the Lusyanka as well as engine/repulsor emissions, vaguely handwaving away the existence of the cloak after one use by mumbling something about it being "removed" or "breaking", etc.._) Nevermind all the other bullshit you had to make up to make your pet theory LOOK as if it were more reasonable in comparison to established fact. And then there's your little false dilemma fallacy (they either used a cloak, or they had to do all this insane shit I made up in order to make it work!)

Serriously, do you think I am so fucking stupid and unaware of the material that I would BUY this retarded theory without question?

[JointStrikeFighter]

Is it possible that the GE has cargo ships large enough to simply fly it down to the planet surface inside of it?

[Lazarus]

Proof?

Last time I checked, this boards accepted estimated population for Coruscant was somewhere in the quadrillions. Of this, a significant proportion would be capable of observing the Lusankya if it were visible during it's descent.

Setting aside for a moment this is conjectural bullshit you seem to be pulling out of your ass (IE no proof)

You're asking for proof that there are droids and sensors in the Coruscant system capable of detecting and logging the Lusankya's presence? What, do you want a specific source outlining the nature and positions of all mechanical devices with the capability of registering the Lusankya in the Coruscant system?

So there are no grounds whatsoever for suggesting that there would be sensors/droids etc present throughout the system with the capacity to detect the Lusankya (in whatever form, be it a rough shape on a visual recording or a detaield sensor record)?

1.) The cloaked ship has to contend with waste heat (esp. neutrino emissions) and ion stream, which the cloak will not stop. Nor will it block repulsorfields, which will trigger gravitic sensors. Nevermind CGT or mass sensors (the ship's mass won't vanish.)

Give me a source stating this to be the case. We don't know enough about the technology to say this would be the case because of accepted physics theories alone.

I even question whether a cloaking shield would foil sensors normally applied only in an atmosphere (IE motion sensors, acoustic sensors, etc.)

Also, no proof, but I'm sure that's fine if you're saying it, huh?

2.) The ship, still having mass, will interact with its surroundings, such as the air (sound/vibration, friction, displaced air, etc.) The cloaked ship will also have to be wary of airborne vehicles colliding with the massive cloaked starship, unless you think they're just going to miss by sheer luck. For that matter, how will a cloaking shield even interact in an atmosphere (considering how shields have been seen to interact with atmospheres before.)

The flight vector would be cleared, collisions would not be a problem - remember that Coruscant air traffic is controlled (sky lanes etc). We don't know how a cloak will interact with an atmosphere, so this is neither for or against the argument. As for mass, conceeded.

People,d espite what you think, WOULD noticee such a modification, ,because it would have to be installed when they were building the Lusankya at KDY. Funny enough, noone ever noticed or commented on the fact that the "Executor was outfitted with a cloaking shield", but rather that both KDY and Fondor ended up claiming to build identical vessels.

Except they're not identical, are they? The Lucy has a prison section and is specifically rigged out to react to Isard's personal control.

Wow, you just love pulling shit out of your ass, don't you? Or do you have some evidencee that this is actually a concern? Or that your cloaking masturbation even solves this?

You actually want me to provide EVIDENCE that the Emperor couldn't do the entire thing ON HIS OWN, without telling anyone? Because, you know, that's OBVIOUSLY the more rational explanation?

And think about it, Star Dreadnaughts don't land. The sight of one doing so would be captured in god only knows how many ways, and to prevent this the Emperor would have to control not only every biological creature capable of recording or remembering information, but also every mechanical device.

Is this your alternative theory? I'm interested because this entire thread concerns propositions for how the feat was achieved, and you're quite happily shredding my idea as if I'm stating that it MUST be the case (which I never have) without an alternative. How do you think it was done? I'm simply suggesting that a cloak is a more reasonable explanation that the other ideas thus far proposed (build it on the planet, build it into a starscraper etc).

Are you perhaps suggesting that the Emperor is so powerful that he can control quadrillions of beings (the entire population of not only Coruscant, but the entire system, and every ship/station etc in it), along with more quadrillions of mechanical devices (even a tiny visual recording on a houseworking droid would have to be erased)? If so, then the films must be wrong, because there is no way in hell that the Emperor could ever have been defeated. He could have reached out and turned the Rebel fleet at Endor on each other, for example, with no effort at all.

[Lord Revan]

btw do know exactly where in Corusant the Lusankya was "buried" as if she was hiden in the Works (a large abandoned industrial sector) only problem would basically getting the ship to the surface (nobody who anyone would miss (or knew to exist) lives in the Works) and since the whole place would been demolished if they knew who owned what in there even before the empire destroying and rebuilding a few plants that weren't used for anything anyway wouldn't be too much of problems (and public transportion avoided the Works outright)

I can provide the quotes for Labyrinth of Evil if you want to.

[Chris OFarrell]

From 'The Krytos Trap'

Cracken held a comlink up by his ear. "The ship appears to have been buried beneath a portion of the cityscape south west of the Manari Mountains. It came up firing. Freeing itself it devastated over a hundred square kilometres. Millions are missing, presumed dead".

It was also clearly visible from the Imperial Palace as a white wedge in the sky, though not *instantly* from what I gather as an SSD unless you could put its size into perspective at the distance it was at.

[Lazarus]

The Lusankya launched from a heavily populated area, evidenced by the quote provided above (Manarai Mountains are pretty much central Coruscant). Also, in (IIRC) Wraith Squadron, the wife of the Night Caller's Captain was killed in her home by the engine thrust of the Lucy as it launched.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I wonder if the Lusankya was located in the old staging areas on Coruscant where they landed the Venators. There are no records of whether those staging areas remained. Perhaps they rebuilt the entire area and placed the Lusankya there. It would make a bit more sense since after all, it is very hard to evict tonnes of people, then allow them to return after tearing the whole place up.

[Connor MacLeod]

*snip bullshit*

I'm actually a little tired of this, since you now seem to be set on deliberate distortions of my own argument to cover your own goddamn ass. In case you forgot, I demanded you provide evidence to back up those made up statistics you cited earlier. The only one of them that may have any basis is the one based on Curtis' population estimates for Coruscant, and even those are not free from interpretation. (IF you wnat to play the "pure canon" game, its only one trillion.) The actual number of residents at any given point on Coruscant, howver does not matter.

Your attempts at sidestepping burden of proof, of course, are irrelevant. Even allowing for your made up numbers, and allowing that they are the ONLY POSSIBILITY (heaven forbid, for example, taht they might try burying the ship say, at night, when the vast majority of the population on one half of the planet MIGHT be asleep....) because your "cloak wank" fails to account for things basic science ought to tell us. Instead, you rather try to vaguely handwave those away through appeals to a "mysterious unknown mechanism" much the same way Darkstar did with his pet superlaser theory.

To be more specific::

- The specific source stating that cloaking shields don't stop ion engines come from the Imperial sourcbeook:

A cloaked vessel is virtually immune to DER (dedicated energy receptor) scanning by all but
the most powerful systems manned by the most expert technicians. DERs can only locate cloaked vessels by picking up ion engine heat.

There's also the not-so-minor fact that the Hand of Thrawn Duology had cloaking devices where weapons fire, TIE fighters, the Falcon, and so on and so forth could pass through unharmed. So again, ion exhaust shouldn't be stopped either.

"But wait, that doesn't address repulsors!" you scream. Well, you see, this is where you look particularily stupid, because I don't really need the quotes to prove you full of shit. See, basic physics will tell us if a cloaking shield blocked ion engine emissions or repuslor emissions, the ship won't be able to move (at least not without violating conservation of momentum - Ion engine exhaust will push against the ship, hit the shield, and cancel out any thrust it provides. Repulsors won't be able to push against a planet's surface because the shields block them.) Frankly, I'm at a loss to think how you expected the ship to move or even stay in orbit if the cloakign shield blocked the emissions like you seem to think - did you hope the lusankya would just drop to the ground like an asteroid and coincidentally land in the right spot?

Likewise, if you actually thought about it, you'd realize that blocking your ship from emitting waste heat is a bad idea, namely because it means that unless you run your ship "silent/dead" or at best at minimal levels, it runs the risk of overheating itself (or, more probably, destrroying itself from all that waste heat its containing. Which at best hampers your mobility efforts (and makes actually reaching the planet a slower proposition, GRREATLYlengthening the time needed to "divert" any traffic around the landing coordinates and thus increasing suspicion of activities. At worst, the ship ain't going fucking nowhere.)

Of course, given we know SW ships operate primarily by neutrino radiiators and we already know particles and matter can pass through cloaking shields unopposed (as well as the fact you can fire capital ship weaponry though said shields - a feat which would incur substnatial waste heat pentalie - again the Hand of Thrawn duology.) we are left with yet another gaping hole in your theory. Besides, if we go by the established facts of cloaking shields, they consume substnatial amounts of energy, which also means that there is going to be waste heat involved in THEIR operation.

- Acoustic and motion sensors. Again, your ignorance betrays you. Active motion detectors work by various methods, but they all rely on active emissions that are broken/disrupted by the presence of a mass (which is what a cloaking shield will do.) A cloaked ship, as described in the EU, still has its fucking mass and will still disrupt any sort of "beam" like that.

As for "passive motion detectors" as described in the link above... Again already dealt with by simple science as I described above. If the ship is to remain active, it can't "block" its waste heat disposal functions or the ship will overheat (catastrophically.) Not being able to "block" the waste heat means that the ship will be detectable passively at least in SOME form (unless it runs dead or at low power, neither of which is very plausible in this scenario.) The only other thing it could do is to redirect the waste heat in a given direction (away from other sensors).. but again this isn't feasible, no matter where it sends it, it will be picked up.

A cloaking shield will also not stop sound waves (any more than it will stop the moving matter I described above.), so acoustic sensors and sonar-based motion sensors will work. (And again, the canon only dictates that cloaking shields are designed to block starship sensors, primarily EM-based ones. Since space is a vaccuum, there is no mention nor reason for cloaking shields to work against sonar, even if it were possible.)

- atmospheric disturbancecs: Largely an extension of what I've already established, and what you seem to have blatently ignored or failed to recognize. A ship as big as the Lusankya, even when travelling at low speeds through the atmopshere (say a hundred meters/seconds), would generate IMMENSE kinetic energies, and thus immense frictional forces simply by virtue of its mass/volume and the atmosphere (We're talking tens or hundreds of megatons worth of KE minimum, and more probably gigatons.) Sound and air displacement (again a huge, noisy mass of metal moving through the air at fairly high speeds) are also not going to be blocked by the cloaking shield, much for the same reasons I outline above.

Oh, and did I mention that based on the evidence in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (both editions) the SSD cloak on the Terror was lost when the Rebels sabotaged it? Do you have evidednce a prototype or the research survived so that it was easily replicable?

The utterly sad part of all this is is that your cloaking wank falls apart from merely ONE of the above being true - the ion engine/repuslor bit alone breaks it, nevermind waste heat or all the rest. And its nothing you can hand-wave away by vague appeals like you tried, either, ,because the physics ARE known (even if the exact operation of the cloaking shield isn't, we can analyze or describe its effects and science can tell us enough based on that.) And yet... you still feel that a cloaking shield would be a better option.

Its rather obvious you didn't give the matter a great deal of thought. Even with your cloak, you would still need other ways to "mask" the ship's presence, particularily against all your invented fictional numbers (If they were true, that is.) You do realize that you are presenting a false dilemma, right? You failed to consider, for example, that it is possible for a Force user to "cloak" a ship from being visible to others as well as the "mind fogging" bit. Force users can also disrupt machinery as well as memories (Luke did it often enough in the Black Fleet Crisis, Tyrant's Test in particular.) And it fails to take into account other possibilities too. What if Palpy engineered a massive power failure? Or some sort of terrorist EMP/ionization attack to take out machinery in a large radius on the planet? Or a combination thereof?

AT worst, the above require the assumption of one or two things at most to make it workable, but its still far less complicated than your cloak wank, and it also accounts for the things that your theory utterly failed to address.

So don't give me this bullshit about your theory being better, or pretend you've met your burden of proof so you can try to pawn it off on me. You didn't bother to fucking think it through, and the gaping flaws in your theory are obvious (at least to anyone with some understanding, anyhow.) So either back up your claims or concede.

[Lex]

hmm, Lazarus idea might not be as bad as it seems at first glance:

we know that a cloaked ship is impossible to see on any sensors whatsoever, until it activates it's engines, right?

so, what if the empire arranged a pre-built "hangar" to be created, telling the people in the area and those who worked there any reason but the real one; then, the emperor cloaked the ship(he did after all possess the technology, since he stored it at wayland) and the moved it into the "hangar" by the force? so, no sensors would recognize it, and nobody would see it. he'd just have to mind-fuck "a few" people then, and could simply kill the guys who worked at the ship and the "hangar"...

[Ghost Rider]

hmm, Lazarus idea might not be as bad as it seems at first glance:

we know that a cloaked ship is impossible to see on any sensors whatsoever, until it activates it's engines, right?

so, what if the empire arranged a pre-built "hangar" to be created, telling the people in the area and those who worked there any reason but the real one; then, the emperor cloaked the ship(he did after all possess the technology, since he stored it at wayland) and the moved it into the "hangar" by the force? so, no sensors would recognize it, and nobody would see it. he'd just have to mind-fuck "a few" people then, and could simply kill the guys who worked at the ship and the "hangar"...

So it's more logical that the Emperor moved a ship that large by the Force, rather then mindfucking people?

We've seen Jedi/Sith do massive amounts of mind control in both canon and literature.

Have we've seen any single Jedi/Sith even accomplish anything within a magnitude of order of this? Because he's moving literally a dead ship that has no engine and is nearly for all intents hurtling towards the planet, once it breaches a certain mark towards the gravitational pull.

[Lex]

hmm, Lazarus idea might not be as bad as it seems at first glance:

we know that a cloaked ship is impossible to see on any sensors whatsoever, until it activates it's engines, right?

so, what if the empire arranged a pre-built "hangar" to be created, telling the people in the area and those who worked there any reason but the real one; then, the emperor cloaked the ship(he did after all possess the technology, since he stored it at wayland) and the moved it into the "hangar" by the force? so, no sensors would recognize it, and nobody would see it. he'd just have to mind-fuck "a few" people then, and could simply kill the guys who worked at the ship and the "hangar"...

So it's more logical that the Emperor moved a ship that large by the Force, rather then mindfucking people?

We've seen Jedi/Sith do massive amounts of mind control in both canon and literature.

Have we've seen any single Jedi/Sith even accomplish anything within a magnitude of order of this? Because he's moving literally a dead ship that has no engine and is nearly for all intents hurtling towards the planet, once it breaches a certain mark towards the gravitational pull.

well, not that I could think of to be honest... but then Palpatine was extremely powerful! And you know, size is nothing

I'm not saying it's _the_ solution, but it's an at least semi-plausible idea that combines force powers with technology.

[Ghost Rider]

hmm, Lazarus idea might not be as bad as it seems at first glance:

we know that a cloaked ship is impossible to see on any sensors whatsoever, until it activates it's engines, right?

so, what if the empire arranged a pre-built "hangar" to be created, telling the people in the area and those who worked there any reason but the real one; then, the emperor cloaked the ship(he did after all possess the technology, since he stored it at wayland) and the moved it into the "hangar" by the force? so, no sensors would recognize it, and nobody would see it. he'd just have to mind-fuck "a few" people then, and could simply kill the guys who worked at the ship and the "hangar"...

So it's more logical that the Emperor moved a ship that large by the Force, rather then mindfucking people?

We've seen Jedi/Sith do massive amounts of mind control in both canon and literature.

Have we've seen any single Jedi/Sith even accomplish anything within a magnitude of order of this? Because he's moving literally a dead ship that has no engine and is nearly for all intents hurtling towards the planet, once it breaches a certain mark towards the gravitational pull.

well, not that I could think of to be honest... but then Palpatine was extremely powerful! And you know, size is nothing

I'm not saying it's _the_ solution, but it's an at least semi-plausible idea that combines force powers with technology.

I grant you Wankatine is powerful, but this is making even the Force Storm look puny in comparison. This is the problem of it. The mass alone of the SSD is enough to bring question, but controlling the mass enough that he can *fly* it in to the area without alerting anyone is a feat that puts him above anything he has remotely done. This is where the whole theory falls apart.

Like I said, we've seen lesser do mind control on a scale within an order of his. We've never seen anything even come close to this. Even the new upcoming game scene hasn't shown the sheer mass control this would involve.

Literally screw using the powers to generate the wormhole...just fling ships like crackers .

[Chris OFarrell]

Just to add my two cents to this debate, MY assumption was always that Palpitine always had a high level of control over Courscant when it was under his thumb, to the extent that not even most people in the higher up level of the Empire knew it.

I mean we find out in the NJO that he had the ability to effectively switch off the planets life support system, without anyone knowing or being able to stop it. My assumption was that he programed all the droids and systems that could see the SSD descending in any way to simply ignore it.

Then I always thoguht he did something like 'projecting' a 'Someone elses program' field on it. So he didn't have to really fuck with billions of minds one by one, he just -somehow- made the site utterly irrelevant to anyone who saw it. Sort of like if you tried to think back a week now, to what cars you saw pass you at a busy intersection when you were driving, you just wouldn't remember. So the Lusankya just didnt get *noticed* and remembered.

At least thats how *I* look at it when trying to figure the whole thing out.

[Lex]

So it's more logical that the Emperor moved a ship that large by the Force, rather then mindfucking people?

We've seen Jedi/Sith do massive amounts of mind control in both canon and literature.

Have we've seen any single Jedi/Sith even accomplish anything within a magnitude of order of this? Because he's moving literally a dead ship that has no engine and is nearly for all intents hurtling towards the planet, once it breaches a certain mark towards the gravitational pull.

well, not that I could think of to be honest... but then Palpatine was extremely powerful! And you know, size is nothing

I'm not saying it's _the_ solution, but it's an at least semi-plausible idea that combines force powers with technology.

I grant you Wankatine is powerful, but this is making even the Force Storm look puny in comparison. This is the problem of it. The mass alone of the SSD is enough to bring question, but controlling the mass enough that he can *fly* it in to the area without alerting anyone is a feat that puts him above anything he has remotely done. This is where the whole theory falls apart.

Like I said, we've seen lesser do mind control on a scale within an order of his. We've never seen anything even come close to this. Even the new upcoming game scene hasn't shown the sheer mass control this would involve.

Literally screw using the powers to generate the wormhole...just fling ships like crackers .

Ok, I conceed he couldn't have done it alone; but, give me one last attempt: what if he did it with the help of his dark side followers(let's say all of them)... we've seen Dorsk 81 do it on Yavin, pushing 17(?) star destroyer out of the orbit by chanelling the power of a number of untrained force adepts; what if Palpatine, the mighist force user of his era, did the same thing with the engergy of Darth Vader, the Executors, the Dark Side Adepts etc.? I admit there's a difference between pushing some ships away uncontrolled on the one hand and to slowly sinking the Lusankaya into it's "hangar" on the other hand, but then Palpatine is not Dorsk 81 and his followers are not almost completely untrained Jedi.