NFL 08 Thread

[Elfdart]

I just read that myself, actually. At first I wanted to groan, thinking it was the Jets grasping at straws in some way, shape, or form. But then reading about the previous incident made me sincerely question it.

Sadly though, even if the Patriots were stealing signs, that doesn't change Pennington's willow arm, or Randy Moss burning us in the backfield through triple coverage.

Stealing signals? Are you fucking kidding me? Don't blame the Patriots. If your team is dumb enough to send in offensive plays via hand signal, you deserve to take one in the ass from the other team. I remember the 1979 divisional playoff game between the Chargers and Oilers. The Oilers got lucky and won in no small part because Wade Philips had videotapes of the Chargers' offensive hand signals from earlier games and broke the code. They knew the plays the instant they were sent into the huddle and picked off the Chargers 5 times. When Don Coryell found out that the Oilers had broken the code, he sent in plays via substitution afterward: he made damn sure he wasn't going to lose that way again. Why tip your hand like that?

You know how you fix a QB with a weak arm? You practice timing until the QB and receivers can do it blindfolded like Kurt Warner did when he had his best seasons. Oh, and you get a line that can block for him. And maybe a defense and special teams unit that doesn't give up 38 points, so running the ball would still be a factor. Jet AND Giant fans are now going to experience the joys of watching those backup QBs they've been yelping for.

[LMSx]

Wow, that will teach me to ever expect the Arizona Cardinals to win a game. Way to step up to the Monday Night Football spotlight. Just bat the fucking ball out of bounds, instead of being a hero and recovering the fumble.

Of course, as a Seahawks fan, the better news is that both teams still both suck. And that Darrell Jackson can always be counted on to drop passes.

[Darth Fanboy]

GO NINERS.

In a game honoring Bill Walsh, the Niners win on an 85 yard last minute touchdown drive. It could not have been a more fitting ending.

[Darth Fanboy]

snip

What if the accusations are true that the Pats were tapping into or otherwise interfering with opposing teams radio signals? That wasn't mentioned in the article but Sports Radio and TV shows were referring to that as well.

Also, the NFL acknowledges that there is a specifically written rule preventing the use of recording devices to record what other teams are doing, whether you agree or disagree with the legitimacy of stealing signs, there is a rule in place and exceptions cannot be made for the Patriots and not for the other 31 teams.

Addendum:

Here's a link to a more detailed article, including the following snippet of text. NOt that it reveals much but it does confirm the investigation into possible manipulation of the other team's radio.

The NFL's investigation also is looking into issues with radio frequencies that arose during the game.

[NeoGoomba]

You know how you fix a QB with a weak arm? You practice timing until the QB and receivers can do it blindfolded like Kurt Warner did when he had his best seasons. Oh, and you get a line that can block for him. And maybe a defense and special teams unit that doesn't give up 38 points, so running the ball would still be a factor. Jet AND Giant fans are now going to experience the joys of watching those backup QBs they've been yelping for.

You do realize youre speaking about the Jets, right? One of the, ahem, GREATEST drafting teams in the NFL. Even though honestly it looked like last draft they were going in the right direction getting the top center and top O-lineman in the draft.

And I won't argue about Pennington, it is a shame the Jets never implemented something like what you mentioned, oh I dont know, 2-3 seasons ago, considering his poor arm strength was a known factor when they picked him up. Thats where most of my hostility towards him comes from. His weaknesses are well known, but it seems like they (be it Pennington on his own, or the Jets coaching staff as a whole), never seem to acknowledge it and try and improve on it, instead hoping his accuracy can carry the weight that his crappy mobility and bad range put on him..

They are a weak team all around, I can't and won't deny it. And for the record, I never thought that this video tape crap had any impact on the game. They simply got outplayed all over the place, play calling didn't really seem to be a factor. It just made me question what the hell was going on.

[Elfdart]

snip

What if the accusations are true that the Pats were tapping into or otherwise interfering with opposing teams radio signals? That wasn't mentioned in the article but Sports Radio and TV shows were referring to that as well.

Also, the NFL acknowledges that there is a specifically written rule preventing the use of recording devices to record what other teams are doing, whether you agree or disagree with the legitimacy of stealing signs, there is a rule in place and exceptions cannot be made for the Patriots and not for the other 31 teams.

Addendum:

Here's a link to a more detailed article, including the following snippet of text. NOt that it reveals much but it does confirm the investigation into possible manipulation of the other team's radio.

The NFL's investigation also is looking into issues with radio frequencies that arose during the game.

If they can prove the Pats were tapping the lines or signals, they should do something about it, just don't bet the rent on it. The reason Al Davis was such a brazen cheater for so long is because (A) the league did nothing about it and (B) because when he was an assistant with Baltimore back in the 50s, the Bears had all the phone lines tapped from the press boxes. When the Colts complained, the league told them "Don't get mad; get even." If the Pats are stealing signals or tapping lines, the Jets should send in plays the old fashioned way (when they substitute) or let the QB call his own.

NeoGoomba, QB is the least of the Jets' problems. They got their asses kicked where it hurts most: the offensive and defensive lines. That bomb to Moss was the result of Tom Brady having a good 5 seconds to throw. The team is also very immature with little poise. Once the Pats ran back that kick for a TD, they packed it in. Time for the coaches to earn their money and coach 'em up.

[Havok]

Thoughts:

The Raiders: They look much better this year. The D was solid as expected and the offense already scored a 1/4 of the TDs they got all of last year.

The Bills: Did the offensive coordinator forget about Marshawn Lynch at the end of the game or fucking what? The guy is a PLAYER! I hope that doesn't happen again. Falkenhayn: Here in Oakland, we call it "Town Buisness"

The Patriots: OOOO we stole your defensive signals OOOO. This is such a non-issue. Any player who is paying attention can figure out the signals and any coach worth his salt changes them up after playing a team the first time just for that reason. W-H-I-N-E-R-S Whiners. Whiners. WHINERS!!
Randy Moss CAN just turn it on and off... go figure.

The 49ers: YES!

[Darth Fanboy]

The Patriots: OOOO we stole your defensive signals OOOO. This is such a non-issue. Any player who is paying attention can figure out the signals and any coach worth his salt changes them up after playing a team the first time just for that reason. W-H-I-N-E-R-S Whiners. Whiners. WHINERS!!

This isn't about stealing signals, it's about using cameras and technology to specifically accomplish that purpose. For me it's one thing if a coach or player figures it out during the game of his own accord but to hire a guy to skulk around the sidelines with a camera is heinous.

[Master of Ossus]

A lot of teams are really upset about the Patriot thing, actually. NFL Total Access has a 5-minute segment, where their reporters are saying that some teams even suggest it's won NE games in the past and held teams out of the playoffs. That's a pretty serious allegation, and if it's true then it's a big blow to their dynasty.

[Elfdart]

Oh please!

The Raiders used to cheat in ways the Patriots never dreamed of. Including:

1) Hiring a janitor to impersonate a running back the Dolphins were planning to draft. Of course the guy sucked, and the Fins passed. Charlie Smith ended up in Oakland.

2) Linemen inserting metal plates in their handwraps for clubbing their opponents. Bob Brown had the same "broken" thumb for 4-5 years. It was a metal rod inside a cast forming a thumb spike like Iguanodon, which he would jab defenders with.

3) Cheapshot after cheapshot. Spearing Kellen Winslow's knee, choke-slamming O.J. Simpson (in retrospect he deserved it) and Lynn Swann, karate-chopping Dan Fouts in the face, piling on Floyd Little when he was WAY out-of-bounds, spearing Len Dawson while he laid on the ground waiting for a stretcher...

4) Spies, bugging and wiretaps galore in the press boxes, team buses, locker rooms, practices, you name it.

There are countless other ways the Raiders used to cheat. What did the league actually do about it? Nothing. Whether they wanted to admit it or not, having a team cheat and piss off opposing fans was GOOD for the sport. People loved to hate them and just about every away game was sold out because of it. It didn't tarnish the team's image at all. Even though the team sucks now, they still sell more stuff than most others. The hooligan reputation and "Just Win, Baby!" shtick is about all the franchise has going for it now.

[Darth Fanboy]

There are countless other ways the Raiders used to cheat. What did the league actually do about it? Nothing. Whether they wanted to admit it or not, having a team cheat and piss off opposing fans was GOOD for the sport. People loved to hate them and just about every away game was sold out because of it. It didn't tarnish the team's image at all. Even though the team sucks now, they still sell more stuff than most others. The hooligan reputation and "Just Win, Baby!" shtick is about all the franchise has going for it now.

So the Patriots broke the rules, and you're saying it isn't a big deal because other teams have cheated before? I'm not buying it.

The Patriots are THE Dynasty of the last decade, so any allegation against them is going to be bigger than it would for any other team. They have also managed a rather clean image up until this season (what with these allegations and the Rodney Harrison steroid allegations). To say that other teams have cheated in the past does not absolve the PAtriots from breaking the rules. In fact, this was enough of an issue that the NFL sent out an explicit statement to all teams prior to this season specifically stating for teams not to use cameras and recording devices for what basically amounts to football espionage.

Elfdart you shock me, because this is the same logic conservatives use to defend Shrubby.

[Master of Ossus]

Oh please!

The Raiders used to cheat in ways the Patriots never dreamed of. Including:
[snip]

That's bullshit, Elfdart, and once again you know it. How does the fact that one other team used to cheat justify the Patriots' cheating today? We're playing in a different era, with clearly different standards from those in the past--including different rules and different standards of enforcement. None of the players you mentioned have played in years, but the Patriot's disregard for the rules of the NFL continued at least until Sunday and the allegations of such behavior stretch back earlier than that, providing a picture of continuous misconduct even in an era of heightened enforcement.

[Flagg]

Oh please!

The Raiders used to cheat in ways the Patriots never dreamed of. Including:
[snip]

That's bullshit, Elfdart, and once again you know it. How does the fact that one other team used to cheat justify the Patriots' cheating today? We're playing in a different era, with clearly different standards from those in the past--including different rules and different standards of enforcement. None of the players you mentioned have played in years, but the Patriot's disregard for the rules of the NFL continued at least until Sunday and the allegations of such behavior stretch back earlier than that, providing a picture of continuous misconduct even in an era of heightened enforcement.

He already said that if they did cheat there should be reprecussions, his dismissive attitude notwithstanding. If this were Major League Baseball I think he might have a point, but the NFL has been pretty good about cracking down across the board, at least from what I've seen and heard.

[Havok]

Oh for fucks sake. You guys do realize that the games are TAPED right? Even if there was a guy that had his camera trained right on the D coordinator for every play for the whole game, THEY CAN JUST CHANGE THE SIGNALS BEFORE THE NEXT TIME THEY PLAY. They should be doing that any way. Part of studying film is looking at what a team does in a given situation, seeing what certain players tells are. This is just a very extreme case of the same thing.

There is not ONE single game in the last 5 years that the Patriots won that they would have lost if they didn't know "teh magiks of teh hand signalz!!!111"

If the league even finds that they are breaking the rules... what are they going to do? Take away wins from previous seasons? Take away a SB victory? Yeah right. They wouldn't even force a forfeit on an upcoming game. At the most they will loose a draft pick or two and that's it.

Can we move on please... there is serious football to be discussed.

[Chardok]

<snippage>

I see your point, Havokeff, but you must remember that in high-profile sports, the institution itself is held to a higher standard than your average institution. Even the APPEARANCE of cheating besmirches the reputation of the NFL, regardless of it's effectiveness or lack thereof. I, for one, feel that there should be repercussions for this, if for no other reason than to drive the point home. It's sad, yes, but sometimes, there needs to be a sacrifical lamb.

[Darth Fanboy]

Oh for fucks sake. You guys do realize that the games are TAPED right? Even if there was a guy that had his camera trained right on the D coordinator for every play for the whole game, THEY CAN JUST CHANGE THE SIGNALS BEFORE THE NEXT TIME THEY PLAY. They should be doing that any way. Part of studying film is looking at what a team does in a given situation, seeing what certain players tells are. This is just a very extreme case of the same thing.

Havokeff, this situation involves a PAtriots employee taping and photographing the other team during the game, whose apparent job is nothing else other than to crack the other teams signals and blatantly violating the "no recording the other team" rule in the process. This is nothing like watching game tape the day after.

There is not ONE single game in the last 5 years that the Patriots won that they would have lost if they didn't know "teh magiks of teh hand signalz!!!111"

So then why does the NFL have such a rule in place if recording other teams doesn't provide an unfair competitive advantage?

If the league even finds that they are breaking the rules... what are they going to do? Take away wins from previous seasons? Take away a SB victory? Yeah right. They wouldn't even force a forfeit on an upcoming game. At the most they will loose a draft pick or two and that's it.

Losing draft picks is a huge deal to the Patriots, who draft exceptionally and have used to the draft to give their team the depth needed to be conistently successful. Nobody at this point is considering forfeiture of anything, which is good because other than two incidents we do not know how far this really goes back.

Can we move on please... there is serious football to be discussed.

Thus providing an example that cheating in the NHL is taken less seriously than cheating in other sports.

[The Dark]

Did anyone else think that Philly got jacked on those two muffed kicks in their game against Green Bay?

Neither of those return men got anywhere near the type of space that they are supposed to get so they can at least try and catch the ball. It seemed to obvious to me that I just assumed they must have changed the "cushion" rules this year since nothing was being called. Then Dan Marino commented about it during one of the post game shows.

So it seems either Dan is out of the loop too or the Philly coaching staff is because they didn't complain about either muffed kick.

I missed the Greg Lewis fumble, but the Reed fumble the Philly staff couldn't do anything about. Less than two minutes to go, only the booth can call a review. Reed shouldn't have tried to snake around the asshat and muffing the catch. Once he's waved for that fair catch, it doesn't matter who initiates the contact if he's going for the ball, it's a penalty on the kicking team. It should have been a penalty anyway for interfering with the path to the ball, but apparently the zebras had been paid off with cheese.

Anyway, I still thought Green Bay's special teams and defense played well.

That they did.

Their offense is still pretty weak and I don't think it's all on Brett Favre. Either they can't run the ball worth a crap or Philly has a very impressive run D.

Overall, Green Bay looked very weak offensively. 10 of their points came on a grand total of -1 yards offense. The Eagles' defensive line is solid, and deep enough that Jim Johnson's rotation scheme works.

[Elfdart]

<snippage>

I see your point, Havokeff, but you must remember that in high-profile sports, the institution itself is held to a higher standard than your average institution. Even the APPEARANCE of cheating besmirches the reputation of the NFL, regardless of it's effectiveness or lack thereof. I, for one, feel that there should be repercussions for this, if for no other reason than to drive the point home. It's sad, yes, but sometimes, there needs to be a sacrifical lamb.

But unlike other institutions, pro football features overgrown juvenile delinquents beating the shit out of each other and resorting to underhanded tactics to win. The patron saint of the sport, whose name adorns the championship trophy said "Winning isn't everything -it's the only thing".

The NFL sells videos of the dirtiest players and the biggest cheats, for fuck's sake. You're a Dolphin fan: Do you remember (whether personally or from those who watched it) when Miami was playing the Patriots in Foxboro during a snowstorm and the Pats sent a convict on work release to hop on a snowplough to clear off an area so Tony Franklin could kick the winning field goal? Don Shula squealed like a stuck pig, but did the league do much of anything? As much as they might pretend to dislike this kind of thing (and I hated it when my team got screwed by the Holy Roller), overall it's good for the game.

That's bullshit, Elfdart, and once again you know it. How does the fact that one other team used to cheat justify the Patriots' cheating today?

Hey asshole, try reading what I actually wrote for a change. I don't condone cheating, but I understand that part of the game's appeal is the on-field hoodlum behavior and the dirty tricks, so the league is not exactly eager to crack down on it.

We're playing in a different era, with clearly different standards from those in the past--including different rules and different standards of enforcement. None of the players you mentioned have played in years, but the Patriot's disregard for the rules of the NFL continued at least until Sunday and the allegations of such behavior stretch back earlier than that, providing a picture of continuous misconduct even in an era of heightened enforcement.

Players still cheapshot one another (remember the Sav Rocca video?). Coaches still sign players waived by upcoming opponents on the off chance that the cut player managed to sneak out with his playbook, or just to pump them for inside dirt. There is still all kinds of skullduggery and even though it's dastardly and underhanded, you know what? Suddenly I'm actually interested in watching the Jets and Patriots play again later this season -something I didn't give a hoot in hell about before this came up. A bigger blight on the game is a team that lost by 24 points crying like little bitches about how the other team cheated.

[Havok]

A bigger blight on the game is a team that lost by 24 points crying like little bitches about how the other team cheated.

Exactly. This is football. Not soccer or baseball or basket ball or tennis or golf or any other sissy ass sport with exaggerated injuries and fucking whiners. This is a sport where a player can get paralyzed and fucking die on any given play, and we all just say "It's part of the game. He knew the risks." and move on.
This is not the league for whiny bitches like the Jets who tattle to the commissioner. If a team cheats you, then the next time you play them you BUST THEM IN THE FUCKING MOUTH AND SEND THEM CRYING TO THEIR FUCKING MOMMIES!!

Cheating happens all the time. It is actually part of what makes the game fun.
If the Jets had won by 24 points you wouldn't have heard word one about this.

[Master of Ossus]

But unlike other institutions, pro football features overgrown juvenile delinquents beating the shit out of each other and resorting to underhanded tactics to win. The patron saint of the sport, whose name adorns the championship trophy said "Winning isn't everything -it's the only thing".

The NFL sells videos of the dirtiest players and the biggest cheats, for fuck's sake. You're a Dolphin fan: Do you remember (whether personally or from those who watched it) when Miami was playing the Patriots in Foxboro during a snowstorm and the Pats sent a convict on work release to hop on a snowplough to clear off an area so Tony Franklin could kick the winning field goal? Don Shula squealed like a stuck pig, but did the league do much of anything? As much as they might pretend to dislike this kind of thing (and I hated it when my team got screwed by the Holy Roller), overall it's good for the game.

And I'm sure that the NFL is going to get bigger and make more money by selling videos of the Patriot's handicam-man.

If you're going to appeal to the popularity of cheating [sic], then at least have the decency to realize that this isn't a form of cheating that is going to be remotely popular with fans or with the press.

Hey asshole, try reading what I actually wrote for a change. I don't condone cheating, but I understand that part of the game's appeal is the on-field hoodlum behavior and the dirty tricks, so the league is not exactly eager to crack down on it.

But dirty plays, "hoodlum behavior" and "dirty tricks" are punished by the League. Your bullshit is readily apparent by things like the crackdown on off-field behavior last season and the elimination of unnecessary celebrations, which the League apparently considered "hoodlum behavior" and didn't consider part of the game, even though prancing around with props after a touchdown is clearly more popular among fans than having teams videotape each others' coaches.

Players still cheapshot one another (remember the Sav Rocca video?).

And they're punished for that. They're subjected to fines, penalties, and even suspensions for such actions.

Coaches still sign players waived by upcoming opponents on the off chance that the cut player managed to sneak out with his playbook, or just to pump them for inside dirt.

Which isn't cheating, according to the NFL. This is in no way similar to what the Patriots are doing.

There is still all kinds of skullduggery and even though it's dastardly and underhanded, you know what? Suddenly I'm actually interested in watching the Jets and Patriots play again later this season -something I didn't give a hoot in hell about before this came up. A bigger blight on the game is a team that lost by 24 points crying like little bitches about how the other team cheated.

No such defense is ever offered for athletes, like Barry Bonds, who cheat and win like crazy. Instead, all you hear about "cheaters" like that is how they dishonor the game of baseball. We hear the same thing about people who use steroids in the NFL, albeit to a much lesser extent. What the Patriots did is blatant cheating, and while it may not have impacted the outcome of this particular game, it may well have impacted the outcomes of numerous Patriots games in the past--indeed, EVERY close game that the Patriots played in recent memory could conceivably be tainted by the scandal, and that's clearly detrimental to the League.

[Master of Ossus]

A bigger blight on the game is a team that lost by 24 points crying like little bitches about how the other team cheated.

Exactly. This is football. Not soccer or baseball or basket ball or tennis or golf or any other sissy ass sport with exaggerated injuries and fucking whiners. This is a sport where a player can get paralyzed and fucking die on any given play, and we all just say "It's part of the game. He knew the risks." and move on.
This is not the league for whiny bitches like the Jets who tattle to the commissioner. If a team cheats you, then the next time you play them you BUST THEM IN THE FUCKING MOUTH AND SEND THEM CRYING TO THEIR FUCKING MOMMIES!!

Cheating happens all the time. It is actually part of what makes the game fun.
If the Jets had won by 24 points you wouldn't have heard word one about this.

Yet many of the very players who accept such risks are speaking out against such behavior by the Patriots.

"It just makes you wonder how long they've been doing this and has it really helped them win some games?"
"That's no different from the cheating ref in basketball."

"When you look back, it's scary."

"I don't want to say anything wrong towards their organization, because I think highly of their coaching staff and their personnel, but if that's the case, that's not right. I would consider it cheating. I honestly would."

[Elfdart]

Nice job of selective quoting. I wrote "on-field hoodlum behavior", like late hits, fighting, trash talking, taunting and other forms of intimidation. Sure the more brazen offenders are "punished" -a donation to charity of a few thousand dollars from a multi-millionaire. OOOOOHH! That will teach 'em a lesson! Are you trying to be funny or are you that fucking stupid? You do realize that a number of teams have an unofficial WE PAY ALL FINES policy, don't you?

So what do you think the NFL will do about the Pats and their cheating? Fine the coach? See above. Suspend the coach? The assistants do most of the work, anyway. Take away draft picks? New England is about as loaded as any team in the league and in any event, their best players are late-round draftees (like Tom Brady) or free agents (like Randy Moss), so that won't hurt the team either.

If much more serious and chronic cheating (Denver's O-line) aren't punished that severely, I doubt something as trivial as videotaping another team's hand signals will be, either.

This whole farce is the result of NY media homers who thought that since the Jets played way over their heads last year and somehow got into the playoffs, that they were comparable to the Patriots. As we saw last Sunday, the Jets are a slightly above average team that just got their noses rubbed in it by a Super Bowl contender and are groping for excuses. Isn't it funny how the Jets' coach had nothing to say about the stealing of signals when he was an assistant with the Patriots? But suddenly the Jets get their asses kicked in a home opener and now Bellichick is Professor Moriarty. Give me a break.

[Havok]

*snip excellence*

Why is it that you bug me on so many other topics, but on football..? Just perfect! ,

[Elfdart]

I've been a fanatical student of the game since I was six. To put this in context, I was seven when I discovered Star Wars, twelve when I discovered driving and fourteen when I discovered pussy. Aside from prehistoric animals (age four), it's the subject that has interested me longer than any other.

[LMSx]

This Patriots thing, if I understand it right, is ridiculous because they could accomplish the exact same thing by sticking some shlub in row 3 in the stands, giving him a video camera, and it would apparently be ok. It's just that the Pats' flunkie was on the sideline with the video camera that broke the rules.

The easy solution which solves this whole issue is to give the MLB defensive signals through a radio headset. It's fair, considering they already do it for the QB.