Defeating a Time War Dalek

[Shannon]

OK, so Series 3 of Dr Who has just started here in NZ, and while reminiscing about the Battle of Canary Wharf I got to thinking:
How much firepower would one need in an infantry weapon to take out a Time War Dalek? The Cybermen obviously weren't up to it ("This is not war, this is pest control!"). The single soldier Time War Dalek we saw in Series 1 of the Chris Eccleston Doctor seemed impervious to current small arms tech also. Although the Doctor seemed confident that the big gun he acquired would do the trick, he never got the chance to find out.

As for other universes, could, for example, a Clone Trooper armed with a standard-issue DC-15A (the big blaster rifle that was one-shotting Super Battle Droids at the Battle of Geonosis) do it?
If not, how much more firepower would one need?
Any estimates?

[Starglider]

How much firepower would one need in an infantry weapon to take out a Time War Dalek?

Sustained fire from those Dalek-modified-Tommy-guns took down a couple of Daleks just fine, and the misses weren't demolishing the building. OTOH those Daleks were not up to full power.

As for other universes, could, for example, a Clone Trooper armed with a standard-issue DC-15A (the big blaster rifle that was one-shotting Super Battle Droids at the Battle of Geonosis) do it?

Unless there's some kind of funky non-DEW effect going on with the Dalek-Tommy-guns, I'd say yes, unless those Daleks in 'Evolution of the Daleks' were down to less than 10% of their normal shield capability. Implication: cyberman arm guns just suck (unsurprising, since they were built with near-contemporary-earth tech).

[NecronLord]

Sustained fire from those Dalek-modified-Tommy-guns took down a couple of Daleks just fine, and the misses weren't demolishing the building. OTOH those Daleks were not up to full power.

Not to mention, the dalek guns currently in use are some kind of inexplicable weirdness. They make a victim's insides glow, and he falls down. They're pretty much incalculable.

Unless there's some kind of funky non-DEW effect going on with the Dalek-Tommy-guns, I'd say yes, unless those Daleks in 'Evolution of the Daleks' were down to less than 10% of their normal shield capability. Implication: cyberman arm guns just suck (unsurprising, since they were built with near-contemporary-earth tech).

Agreed. Cybermen personal guns do sortof suck; aside from the instance of them making a car explode (and that was already crashed, presumably they set off the fuel or something) there's nothing very impressive about them.

[Starglider]

Cybermen personal guns do sortof suck; aside from the instance of them making a car explode (and that was already crashed, presumably they set off the fuel or something) there's nothing very impressive about them.

They probably have good-to-unlimited (subject to main power source depletion) ammo capacity. The bolts were capable of striking daleks flying a couple of hundred metres up, so accuracy seems to be reasonable as well (presumably there's some kind of cybertech that makes aiming with the whole forearm based on vision alone feasible for Cybermen). As such they're a reasonable replacement for contemporary small arms, if only for logistical support reasons (the Cybermen in the void could hardly carry large supplies of ammo with them). They just can't stand up to the more high powered sci-fi weaponary.

[NecronLord]

Yeah. They're decent enough personal weapons, just not massively powerful. Good enough for putting humans down though.

[Starglider]

Yeah. They're decent enough personal weapons, just not massively powerful.

Note that Cyberman built-in guns are adequate to kill each other, as we saw at the end of 'Doomsday' when the Torchwood director cyber(wo)man turned on the rest. Standard assault rifles (presumably SA80s firing 5.56 NATO) could not do any visible damage to cybermen even with massed close-range fire. I haven't freeze-framed my way through the battle at Torchwood looking for collateral damage, but I'd guess that Cybergun blasts have about the punch of a .50 BMG round. That more than makes up for their relatively low (demonstrated) cyclic rate, compared to conventional weapons of the same (pistol to SMG, depending on the amount of internal machinery) size.

[Lord Woodlouse]

The weakened Daleks in Evolution of the Daleks fired explosive bolts where previously they've not been shown to be explosive. I wonder if it would be a stretch to say they fire at "variable yields" (*wince*), and usually they fire a kind of "anti-biological" shot?

Since the Daleks have never demonstrated to own any kind of vehicles beyond spaceships (which, to be fair, have demonstrated atmospheric capability) I'd have thought Daleks (fully charged) have some ability to take on armoured vehicles.

I'd love to know what a tank shell would do to a Time War Dalek though. It's things like that that make threads like this kind of pointless, really, we don't have enough examples to go on to gauge just how strong they are.

[Stark]

Note that Cyberman built-in guns are adequate to kill each other, as we saw at the end of 'Doomsday' when the Torchwood director cyber(wo)man turned on the rest.

Wrong. She used the scifiguns used by the alternate humans, probably specifically designed to kill cybermen.

[NecronLord]

The weakened Daleks in Evolution of the Daleks fired explosive bolts where previously they've not been shown to be explosive. I wonder if it would be a stretch to say they fire at "variable yields" (*wince*), and usually they fire a kind of "anti-biological" shot?

I'm pretty certain I've heard daleks talking about "maximum firepower" or something somewhere. But it might be the old series.

Since the Daleks have never demonstrated to own any kind of vehicles beyond spaceships (which, to be fair, have demonstrated atmospheric capability) I'd have thought Daleks (fully charged) have some ability to take on armoured vehicles.

They've had 'special weapons daleks' down the years... And... Let's not talk about War of the Daleks. *Cringe*

[Imperial Overlord]

The weakened Daleks in Evolution of the Daleks fired explosive bolts where previously they've not been shown to be explosive. I wonder if it would be a stretch to say they fire at "variable yields" (*wince*), and usually they fire a kind of "anti-biological" shot?

I'm pretty certain I've heard daleks talking about "maximum firepower" or something somewhere. But it might be the old series.

It was in the old series (blowing up the Thal ship on Spiridon). Of course in the new series Dalek beams make someone light up and die or blow a hole through a concrete roof (end of "Dalek") so variable yield seems to exist in the new as well.

[Starglider]

Wrong. She used the scifiguns used by the alternate humans, probably specifically designed to kill cybermen.

Sorry, must've remembered that wrongly. In that case all we know about the cyberguns is that they're adequate to gun down humans but do jack shit against (full-power) Daleks.

[General Zod]

How much firepower would one need in an infantry weapon to take out a Time War Dalek?

Sustained fire from those Dalek-modified-Tommy-guns took down a couple of Daleks just fine, and the misses weren't demolishing the building. OTOH those Daleks were not up to full power.

Iirc, the Doctor mentioned that aiming at a specific spot with sustained fire (their eye stalks?) would be sufficient to take them down due to a weakness in their shield geometry or something similar. I forget the exact line of dialog. So it's not just sustained fire in and of itself.

[Patrick Degan]

The Doctor had said the forcefields were weakest at the top near the eyestalk. This proved correct when the controllers at the Game Station managed to put one Dalek eye-unit out of action by concentrated auto-fire using bastic bullets as rounds.

A powerful enough energy weapon can destroy a TW Dalek, as Jack Harkness did inside the TARDIS and also as the Anne-Droid's weapon managed.

[Vanas]

I'm pretty certain I've heard daleks talking about "maximum firepower" or something somewhere. But it might be the old series.

In 'Doomsday', one of the Cult Daleks shouts "Firepower insufficient!" before Sec's gun gets a distinctly more dangerous-looking glow before it fires. ("Firepower restored!")

They can be transmatted, I'd assume with shields up, so I guess a disintergrator or transporter might work a as a weapon against them. You know, just teleport them back in little pieces. Or inside out.

Alt-Earth's scifi guns can penetrate Dalek Shields ("Casing Impaired!"), and cause them to get 'tazered'. Be interesting to see what would happen if several were concentrated on one before it can adapt it's shields

[NecronLord]

In 'Doomsday', one of the Cult Daleks shouts "Firepower insufficient!" before Sec's gun gets a distinctly more dangerous-looking glow before it fires. ("Firepower restored!")

Yeah. That wasn't what I was thinking of though. In that instance, their weapons were being affected by some kind of disruption engineered by the Doctor

Alt-Earth's scifi guns can penetrate Dalek Shields ("Casing Impaired!"), and cause them to get 'tazered'. Be interesting to see what would happen if several were concentrated on one before it can adapt it's shields

When modified by a Time Lord, anyway.

[Lord Woodlouse]

The Extrapolator shield was also working on the Game Station, making "Dalek firepower at it's weakest".

[Stark]

I didn't think it was just that the shields were weakest at the stalk: I thought it was simply that overwhelming the shield with bullets wouldn't do jack shit anywhere else. Getting a few non-melted bullets to strike the armour wouldn't get them anywhere, and the eyestalk was damaged by a shot that did zero physical damage and didn't even have an impact effect.

[Teleros]

the Anne-Droid's weapon managed.

Wasn't that a transmat beam disguised as a weapon?

[Shannon]

Yes, it was. However, IIRC, while Jack's gun worked (it blew the top half of the Dalek apart), it also completely drained the weapon.

I agree with Stark. The hail of bullets seemed to have absolutely no effect other than blinding one Dalek out of three or so, and all of the defenders had been told to shoot at the eyestalks. So even if the shields are weaker there, you're going to have to be either very lucky or very accurate. And a blinded Dalek is still dangerous - the woman who blinded it was dead shortly afterwards.

Also, IIRC, the Torchwood troops were using HK G35s, not SA80s. But still most likely 5.56 NATO.

Since the Daleks have never demonstrated to own any kind of vehicles beyond spaceships (which, to be fair, have demonstrated atmospheric capability) I'd have thought Daleks (fully charged) have some ability to take on armoured vehicles.

Agreed. Daleks are basically scaled-down tanks.

I'd love to know what a tank shell would do to a Time War Dalek though. It's things like that that make threads like this kind of pointless, really, we don't have enough examples to go on to gauge just how strong they are.

Well yes, but I wondered if someone else might have seen more examples than I had. That's why I asked.
And I'd venture to suggest that the sheer KE of an anti-armour tank round might well defeat Dalek shields, and if not penetrate the armour, at least put a rather large dent in it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Dalek inside would be killed from the impact. However, Van Statten's prisoner Time War Dalek had been badly damaged and survived (I assumed at the time it had perhaps made an uncontrolled rentry or some such - that would be considerable thermal and KE damage) so it might live if fully functional to start with. However, I've got no evidence for this supposition other than conjecture, and no numbers to back that up. Feel free to ignore me.

[petesampras]

How much firepower would one need in an infantry weapon to take out a Time War Dalek?

Sustained fire from those Dalek-modified-Tommy-guns took down a couple of Daleks just fine, and the misses weren't demolishing the building. OTOH those Daleks were not up to full power.

As for other universes, could, for example, a Clone Trooper armed with a standard-issue DC-15A (the big blaster rifle that was one-shotting Super Battle Droids at the Battle of Geonosis) do it?

Unless there's some kind of funky non-DEW effect going on with the Dalek-Tommy-guns, I'd say yes, unless those Daleks in 'Evolution of the Daleks' were down to less than 10% of their normal shield capability. Implication: cyberman arm guns just suck (unsurprising, since they were built with near-contemporary-earth tech).

It was mentioned in that episode that the Daleks were seriously low on power after performing an 'emergency temporal shift'.

I seem to remember the cyberman guns producing some reasonable sized explosions when fighting infantry in London?

[NecronLord]

I seem to remember the cyberman guns producing some reasonable sized explosions when fighting infantry in London?

One shot blows up an (already derelict) car, but another shot from the same volley does no visible damage to (though it does kill) an army soldier behind the barricade.

Of course, I'd say this is a difficult question to answer. We have lower limits on what they can survive, but we've seen very few daleks destroyed.