Orange Box Announcement

[Covenant]

Wierdly, I've never had steam issues. I hate the constant updating, and I don't understand why it needs to do that, but as an online verification thing it seems to do it relatively under the radar. A non-protection is ideal, or some kind of physical protection that wouldn't dick around with my connection or security, but those aren't really options (physical used to be, but cloth maps, starcharts, paragraph books and even CD's can be spoofed now, especially with the internet so available).

Really, I think people should just move towards a console-variety of copy protection, where they might make a kind of peripheral box I plug into my compy to play games. I'd enjoy being able to ignore the constant deluge of new graphics cards and just play my games, and the XBox is basically a computer anyway. If they made an 'XDrive' that plugged into my computer and let me play games on it without needing to worry that much about the hardware, and still letting me have mouse-and-keyboard stuff... then I'd probably be interested in that.

Plus, I bet it'd be easier to keep secure, especially if the games for it were something like the gamecube games. Even though software exists to let you play these kinds of wierd things in a computer it is sufficently difficult that it would confuse or at least frustrate your average individual while also allowing for a superior game performance. The real double-whammy to computer game security is that not only are the security systems quite often invasive, destructive, frustrating and entirely irrelevent once you download a simple crack... but the games they're protecting are not all that good or stable. This is a serious problem, since you can't rent a computer game to tell if you like it enough to buy it. Demos just aren't good enough.

[Hotfoot]

Serial numbers are the most easily broken method of security it's not even funny

Hey genious:

Instituted a new serial number check by Matrix Games. Only valid serial numbers will be able to be patched. Known pirated copies are blacklisted. If you are using a pirated copy, get a life, some morals, and buy your own, legal copy.

Wow, So hard to keep track of the "bad serial numbers".

Hey Shep, I don't spar with you often, is it standard procedure for you to flat-out ignore every point except the one you want to attack? Should I take this to mean you concede the others?

Wow, so pirated copies can't be patched. That is, patches somehow check for "valid" serial numbers. Yeah, like that's a real problem for pirates. Yessir. Not like they couldn't fuck with that at all, nosireebob.

Any really secure method is going to have to rely on checks with a central database, dipshit. Do these patches require an internet connection to install?

Wait, don't answer that, because you've stepped into problem number one! First off, these people have the games without having paid the creators. Two, they can play them offline with no problems whatsoever. Three, YOU HAVE TO GO ONLINE TO GET THE MOTHERFUCKING PATCH IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Oh my god! Look out Shep! YOU HAVE TO GO ONLINE TO PLAY A SINGLEPLAYER GAME!

Well, by your logic, at least. God you're stupid. That's okay, I hear being stupid is attractive. Usually in young, pretty people, but that's okay, I'm sure you'll make do with your other qualities. In reality, that security measure is meaningless to anyone with the gumption to go out and get a crack. Too bad, so sad. Care to try again? Maybe deal with the other points I've brought up? Or are you going to keep flailing?

[MKSheppard]

Hey Shep, I don't spar with you often, is it standard procedure for you to flat-out ignore every point except the one you want to attack? Should I take this to mean you concede the others?

I looked through your post and most of it was just bullshit.
To you it's either a anal intensive protection scheme like Starforce, or "I can't play my game unless I activicate it online!"

Wow, so pirated copies can't be patched. That is, patches somehow check for "valid" serial numbers. Yeah, like that's a real problem for pirates. Yessir. Not like they couldn't fuck with that at all, nosireebob.

Considering that patches add many new features with Matrix Games (the TOAW3 patches had a completely new, smarter AI opponent); it's the pirates' loss.

Or that Silent Hunter IV is a massively different game between v1.0 and v1.3.......

BTW: Silent Hunter IV Patch 1.3 removed the CD Check. What a fucking evil thing to do; Remove protection from your games!

And it's not hard to code the patch EXE to reject such and such serial numbers.

And you seem to think that pirates are going to constantly crack each new patch so that pirates can update their game.

(NOTE: when I say crack each new patch, I mean defeat the serial number check, not crack the new EXE so you can have No CD).

The majority of pirate groups exist to crack and release new run games, in a game of who is faster to release a new game.

Any really secure method is going to have to rely on checks with a central database, dipshit.

OH RLY. No not really. I can do one up better than your idocy of a secure central database for SECURITY.

A USB Key Dongle, it's used for Steel Beasts Pro; you need to have a USB key physically inserted to be able to play the game.

Do these patches require an internet connection to install?

Nope. All you need to do is just input your serial number, sit back and watch it install.

Three, YOU HAVE TO GO ONLINE TO GET THE MOTHERFUCKING PATCH IN THE FIRST PLACE.

O RLY! Nevermind you can burn the patches to a CD to make life easier, and install the patches on a computer with no internet connection.

God you're stupid.

And you're a stupid fucking cunt.

[Hotfoot]

I looked through your post and most of it was just bullshit.
To you it's either a anal intensive protection scheme like Starforce, or "I can't play my game unless I activicate it online!"

Glad to see your reading comprehension matches the rest of your intelligence. I'm saying that for a digital distribution system, online verification makes a lot of sense. I'm not advocating Starforce, mind you, but never mind that, you had a strawman to make.

Considering that patches add many new features with Matrix Games (the TOAW3 patches had a completely new, smarter AI opponent); it's the pirates' loss.

You're under the erroneous assumption that there's NO WAY pirates could defeat the improved copy protection. Good luck proving that, by the way.

Or that Silent Hunter IV is a massively different game between v1.0 and v1.3.......

So...you're saying that basically either a lot of extra content was released, or the game wasn't complete on release. I fail to see the point here. The only way the online registration is an issue is if you have NO net connection at all. If you can download a multi-megabyte patch, you can spend ten seconds registering the game.

BTW: Silent Hunter IV Patch 1.3 removed the CD Check. What a fucking evil thing to do; Remove protection from your games!

If developers want to remove all copy protection from their games, they're free to do that. By no stretch of the imagination does this mean that everyone is required to do this.

Oh, and Steam games don't require CD checks anyway. What's your fucking point?

And it's not hard to code the patch EXE to reject such and such serial numbers.

So if a pirate has a legit CD-Key that someone else used, how do you hard code that, shithead? Oh wait, that's right, you can't without a central database that you check online.

And you seem to think that pirates are going to constantly crack each new patch so that pirates can update their game.

Why not? It's a challenge (even if it's really easy), and these guys are all about bragging rights. That's why there are cracks for games before the game even goes on sale.

(NOTE: when I say crack each new patch, I mean defeat the serial number check, not crack the new EXE so you can have No CD).

Gosh, I'm sure glad you explained that, because I never would have thought of that, mister.

The majority of pirate groups exist to crack and release new run games, in a game of who is faster to release a new game.

But they totally never crack patches with protection. No sir. Especially not ones specifically designed to undo their previous work. Certainly not ones that have little messages from the devs which essentially say "fuck you".

OH RLY. No not really. I can do one up better than your idocy of a secure central database for SECURITY.

The best part of this is that you misspelled idiocy. But hey, you've not really refuted the point, but let's see what tangent we can go on today.

A USB Key Dongle, it's used for Steel Beasts Pro; you need to have a USB key physically inserted to be able to play the game.

Wow. And this is somehow BETTER than a simple, ten-second online registration how? Moreover, if you downloaded the game digitally, how do you play without a USB keydrive? Do you have to go out and spend $20-80 to play this game? Wow, this is fucking brilliant.

Nope. All you need to do is just input your serial number, sit back and watch it install.

Wow, yeah, that's ironclad. There's no WAY that could be bruteforced. None at ALL.

O RLY! Nevermind you can burn the patches to a CD to make life easier, and install the patches on a computer with no internet connection.

You still need to GET ONLINE IN THE FIRST PLACE, dipshit. You can backup games off of Steam and install them without a net connection too. It's clear you don't have a point, and you're just flailing madly. Just give up already.

And you're a stupid fucking cunt.

Wow, why not just say "well you're stupider times twelve!" while you're at it? Not only have you not actually addressed any points, you've just suggested a security measure which costs ME money, is infinitely more draconian, and doesn't even really work well, if at all, with digital distribution games. All while flailing that some CDkey system is somehow completely unbeatable, and that patches are NECESSARY to play a game, but going online to download a patch that's now somehow necessary to play a game is less than spending ten seconds to register your game online.

But that's okay, it's clear you don't really understand what you're talking about. Why don't you go to bed and let the grownups talk? I'll bring up a glass of water later if you promise not to wet the bed.

[Praxis]

How much does Portal cost separately? It's the only one I care about.

Also, drop the whining. Come on, you acknowledged that buying all the addon packs would cost you $70; you wouldn't be complaining about that if Orange Box hadn't come along. Look at the positive; Orange Box gives you a $20 discount on all that extra stuff plus an extra copy of Half-Life 2 to give away to a friend.

[Hotfoot]

How much does Portal cost separately? It's the only one I care about.

Also, drop the whining. Come on, you acknowledged that buying all the addon packs would cost you $70; you wouldn't be complaining about that if Orange Box hadn't come along. Look at the positive; Orange Box gives you a $20 discount on all that extra stuff plus an extra copy of Half-Life 2 to give away to a friend.

There was originally a Black Box that was to be just the expansion stuff. It was supposed to be cheaper than the Orange Box. It no longer exists, save for a few people who pre-ordered it with deals that no longer exist. The free copy of HL2 doesn't do much for me except allow me to create a second account for LAN use or somesuch, and it certainly doesn't benefit me for supporting Valve in any way, it just lets Valve continually hook new customers by essentially creating pseudo spawn copies.

Moreover, the pricing is specifically designed to be beneficial towards the Orange Box. Nobody in their right mind would get two of the three for the same price they could get all three. This is to further encourage people to participate in this new program of free HL2. Sure, it's a smart move on Valve's part, but I can't help but feel like I got shafted in the process. Can you really blame me?

[MKSheppard]

Glad to see your reading comprehension matches the rest of your intelligence.

I'm not going to do a word for word rebuttal of every single sentence you say, unlike some posters.

I'm saying that for a digital distribution system, online verification makes a lot of sense. I'm not advocating Starforce, mind you, but never mind that, you had a strawman to make.

Point on Starforce, Sorry about that. Online verification isn't a panacea; it can be cracked, and imposes additional overhead to the developers, in both developing the verification system, and actually keeping the verification servers running.

You're under the erroneous assumption that there's NO WAY pirates could defeat the improved copy protection. Good luck proving that, by the way.

I don't need to. While cracked and pirated versions of virtually all of Matrix's games are easily available via the intardnet; I have yet to see cracked patches to circumvent the blacklisted serials for any of them. They all remain stuck at v1.0 initial releases.

Any sort of copy-protection can and will be circumvented anyway - CD Keys offer the best ROI for your programming investment; you only need to have a young intern scanning pirate sites to find the serial numbers that are given for the games; and make sure that the next patch EXE says "INVALID SERIAL NUMBER" when those serials are put in.

Cheap, and deters casual piracy without being onerous or assholish, meaning that when you're done with the game, you can simply give the CD/DVDs to a friend, along with the CD Key; and he can play it. No long convoluted sequence with the "Authentication Server" to transfer the license.

I fail to see the point here. The only way the online registration is an issue is if you have NO net connection at all

What if the internet activication system is Hell? Despite me legally owning a copy of Harpoon 3, logging into the Esellerate authentication server was always a hellish experience.

"We cannot connect to the Esellerate server, etc, etc so no playing Harpoon 3!"

The Matrix version of Harpoon 3 (ANW) ditched that retarded system for a simpler serial number.

Oh, and Steam games don't require CD checks anyway. What's your fucking point?

If the developers of an A+ title decide that even a routine CD Check isn't needed, then what is the point for central auth servers?

So if a pirate has a legit CD-Key that someone else used, how do you hard code that, shithead? Oh wait, that's right, you can't without a central database that you check online.

And so what if there are a couple of pirates using CD Keys that they have obtained from their friends? The keys are useless within the pirating community unless they're released widely, and upon that, they can be found and blacklisted.

Why not? It's a challenge (even if it's really easy), and these guys are all about bragging rights. That's why there are cracks for games before the game even goes on sale.

Then why have I yet to see cracked patches for Matrix games?

Answer: Too much work for too little gain.

Gosh, I'm sure glad you explained that, because I never would have thought of that, mister.

Well thank you, I was just making sure I was clear on what I was talking about.

But they totally never crack patches with protection. No sir. Especially not ones specifically designed to undo their previous work. Certainly not ones that have little messages from the devs which essentially say "fuck you".

Then why have I yet to see cracked patches for Matrix games?

The best part of this is that you misspelled idiocy.

So we've now devolved to nitpicking spelling now? Hooray!

Moreover, if you downloaded the game digitally, how do you play without a USB keydrive? Do you have to go out and spend $20-80 to play this game? Wow, this is fucking brilliant.

Actually, it comes shipped with the game.

ESimGames

Of course, the game costs $125; and is primarily intended towards military personnel who want to train using commercially available hardware, but it's also available to civilians too.

A true consumer version, Steel Beasts 2, with a cheaper price tag ($40) and no dongle, is due out in '08.

Wow, yeah, that's ironclad. There's no WAY that could be bruteforced. None at ALL.

Again, we come down to ROI. Sure, anything can be bruteforced, but is it worth the time?

You still need to GET ONLINE IN THE FIRST PLACE, dipshit. You can backup games off of Steam and install them without a net connection too.

You still need to install Steam to use the backup option; and you're shit out of luck if Steam suddenly develops a problem and won't let you do anything; like what just happened to Ando earlier in this thread.

More to the point, I have actually used Steam. Once. To play Red Orchestra. Activication was relatively quick; but the "patching" process wasn't. God Damn it, I just want to play the game now to see what it's like, instead of having to wait xx minutes for a patch which automatically began downloading and installing without my consent to finish downloading from the Steam servers.

It's clear you don't have a point, and you're just flailing madly. Just give up already.

No, you're the one wailing around like a fucking moron, who has no idea of how bad copy protection CAN get.

Wow, why not just say "well you're stupider times twelve!" while you're at it?

No, that's your line.

Not only have you not actually addressed any points, you've just suggested a security measure which costs ME money, is infinitely more draconian, and doesn't even really work well, if at all, with digital distribution games.

It was a reply to your assertion that online server validation was the best, most secure method. And really, when you're paying $125 for the game, the $5 of the game's cost being taken up for a USB dongle isn't that much of a cost relatively speaking.

All while flailing that some CDkey system is somehow completely unbeatable,

Excuse me, but I never said that. They're the best system to use for copy protection to defeat casual piracy, especially if you need a CD Key to play online; and they are not as intrusive as the other systems.

Remember, each dollar spent on a copy protection system and authentication server farm is a dollar less that can be spent on other aspects of the game; and in not a few cases, the copy protection can actually make the game buggy.

and that patches are NECESSARY to play a game

So you're going to flail wildly against a hard immutable fact of reality in the computer gaming world? Good luck with that. It's virtually impossible to catch every single bug in the game; and lets be honest, online downloading of patches are much superior to the old method.....getting a card and writing it to the game company to mail you a patch disk for the game...

I still have the Aces of the Pacific: 1946 3.5" Floppy patch disk that I sent out to Sierra for.

Ideally, a game should not require major patches to actually play it out of the box; but as we know, developers/publishers are lazy.

Cases in point:

Combat Mission Shock Force: Crap ridden piece of shit that somehow doesn't work on NVIDIA 8800 series cards without lagging; and the AI for the units is retardedly stupid; and is still this way after 2 patches

Carriers at War: Game played nicely out of the box; and the first patch added useful game functionality like ships slowing down when damaged, and a "random scenario variant selector"; as well as fixing a few bugs in the scenario editor.

TOAW 3: Each patch adds more scenarios to the game; as well as adding many useful features, and squicking very tough bugs that are hard to find.

but going online to download a patch that's now somehow necessary to play a game is less than spending ten seconds to register your game online.

Oh yes, another story about Shock Force. It's a good thing that I didn't cannibalize my old computer when I upgraded; because it uses your beloved online activication/validation system to ensure that only one license for each game can be active at one time. Not a problem, no?

Ah, but you have to physically log into their authentication server from the original computer to "Deactivicate" your license before you can "activicate" it on your new computer.

So you can see why it was a good thing I had to build my new computer from 100% new parts instead of cannibalizing parts; otherwise I would have been shit out of luck with Shock Force.

When faced with such a retarded central server authentication scheme, I'll always pick CD Keys; because what if the central auth server goes down when the company goes out of business? (which is what happened to Harpoon 3 and ESellerate).

But that's okay, it's clear you don't really understand what you're talking about. Why don't you go to bed and let the grownups talk? I'll bring up a glass of water later if you promise not to wet the bed.

Funny you should say that. Seeing as at the ripe old age of 26, I've played all sorts of games with all kinds of copy protection, like random symbols written down on dark red paper (to deter xeroxing), which have to be entered each time you start up the game (Original Sim City, The Terminator), or where in order to actually proceed with the game, you have to have the sheet (Zak McKraken, where the sheet contains the airline codes you need to punch into ATMs to get a ticket to go to locations in the game), to having to flip through the god damn manual to find Word Seven, Line five, Paragraph two, Page 21 (Wing Commander, and a few Sierra Games).

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

How much does Portal cost separately? It's the only one I care about.

Also, drop the whining. Come on, you acknowledged that buying all the addon packs would cost you $70; you wouldn't be complaining about that if Orange Box hadn't come along. Look at the positive; Orange Box gives you a $20 discount on all that extra stuff plus an extra copy of Half-Life 2 to give away to a friend.

Actually, it's more like a 100% discount, since I won't be buying Ep 2 or any of the other stuff that comes in the box. If they want to release "episodic content" whose episodes are 12+ months apart (and I believe I predicted that's how it would turn out) with 5 hours of gameplay, great. And if they want to charge expansion pack prices of $20 for them, well, okay. I'm not willing to pay that, but a lot of others did. But then they decide to bundle a bunch of stuff together and refuse to sell it separately to wring even more out of the consumer. I doubt I'm the only one who balks at that.

As to the online activation, I was being dramatic when I said boycott, but there are still real problems with online activation of storebought products. There are lots of reasons people might not have internet access on their primary gaming systems. Maybe they're underage and their folks don't want them having internet on the PC in their room. Maybe they're in the military. Maybe they're self-medicating an Internet addiction by not having it in the house. Then there are the things that can go wrong and leave you staring at your desktop and trying to get tech support when it's your day off and you've been dying to play the game for months. I work at a bank, and we don't just have one way for a customer to positively ID himself, so if he forgot his ATM card or it got demagnetized he's screwed. Online activations are okay as long as there is also another way to activate, such as by phone. Otherwise, they're an imposition on the customer, and we have every right to protest.

[Hotfoot]

I'm not going to do a word for word rebuttal of every single sentence you say, unlike some posters.

You say this, but what do you end up doing later in your post? Just exactly that. Way to make a point there, Sheppy.

Point on Starforce, Sorry about that. Online verification isn't a panacea; it can be cracked, and imposes additional overhead to the developers, in both developing the verification system, and actually keeping the verification servers running.

It's much, much harder to crack, because the system can be updated dynamically. Abuses are easier to pick up on, etc. The cost of running an authentication server is minimal compared to the costs of the content servers anyway, and if the system is good enough and you get more sales from tighter protection, then it easily pays for itself. Make a game easy to pirate, your profits go down, see?

I don't need to. While cracked and pirated versions of virtually all of Matrix's games are easily available via the intardnet; I have yet to see cracked patches to circumvent the blacklisted serials for any of them. They all remain stuck at v1.0 initial releases.

Any sort of copy-protection can and will be circumvented anyway - CD Keys offer the best ROI for your programming investment; you only need to have a young intern scanning pirate sites to find the serial numbers that are given for the games; and make sure that the next patch EXE says "INVALID SERIAL NUMBER" when those serials are put in.

Cheap, and deters casual piracy without being onerous or assholish, meaning that when you're done with the game, you can simply give the CD/DVDs to a friend, along with the CD Key; and he can play it. No long convoluted sequence with the "Authentication Server" to transfer the license.

You're missing the point. CD Keys used to crack the game need not just be randomly generated, they can exist from the set of legitimate keys used. Then what? When their paying customers can't play their games because their CD Key happened to be one of the ones generated by the hackers, what are you going to do?

What if the internet activication system is Hell? Despite me legally owning a copy of Harpoon 3, logging into the Esellerate authentication server was always a hellish experience.

"We cannot connect to the Esellerate server, etc, etc so no playing Harpoon 3!"

The Matrix version of Harpoon 3 (ANW) ditched that retarded system for a simpler serial number.

If the problem is actually with the system itself, and not, say, a computer riddled with malware, then yeah, it's a problem with the people that set it up. I fail to see, however, how this is a problem with what Steam does. Especially given that if you can't log online, you can still play.

If the developers of an A+ title decide that even a routine CD Check isn't needed, then what is the point for central auth servers?

Hm, CD check every time you run the game, or ten seconds shortly after you finish installing? I wonder...

Also, again I have to ask what is the point here? I mean, okay, one company does things one way with niche games that very few people care about anyway, so the same security is okay for all games? Moreover, does this mean that if I can find a company with retarded security, does this mean that it's better, just because it's less? Is this going to turn into a retarded "Information wants to be free" love fest, because if so, I'm out.

And so what if there are a couple of pirates using CD Keys that they have obtained from their friends? The keys are useless within the pirating community unless they're released widely, and upon that, they can be found and blacklisted.

Sigh. Yes, because the only way pirates could get valid keys is from borrowing them from friends. Yeah right. Explained above. Eventually pirates can get every valid key, and there's no way to be sure you've got them all, even with interns on idiotboxes going to every warez site on the web.

Then why have I yet to see cracked patches for Matrix games?

Answer: Too much work for too little gain.

Or B: You haven't looked in the right places yet, or perhaps C: There's no need to crack the patch if the original crack has a valid CD Key.

Well thank you, I was just making sure I was clear on what I was talking about.

Yeah, because noCD patches were ever so vital to this discussion. Never mind that noCD patches are more for people who legally own the games anyway and don't want to be bothered putting in the disc every single time they want to play.

So we've now devolved to nitpicking spelling now? Hooray!

PROTIP: When you're attempting to insult one's intelligence, it helps to not fuck up the word you're using to insult them. C'mon Sheppy, it's not that hard.

Actually, it comes shipped with the game.

ESimGames

Of course, the game costs $125; and is primarily intended towards military personnel who want to train using commercially available hardware, but it's also available to civilians too.

A true consumer version, Steel Beasts 2, with a cheaper price tag ($40) and no dongle, is due out in '08.

Shep, this is a discussion about product authentication for DIGITALLY DISTRIBUTED GAMES. This little tangent? Yeah, it's meaningless. Why the fuck did you even bring it up in the first place? There is zero relevance, other than to wank about the games you like.

Again, we come down to ROI. Sure, anything can be bruteforced, but is it worth the time?

Again, you're assuming that it's a nontrivial amount of time.

You still need to install Steam to use the backup option; and you're shit out of luck if Steam suddenly develops a problem and won't let you do anything; like what just happened to Ando earlier in this thread.

That's funny, because Ando's problem got resolved pretty damn fast. Sure you want to use that as an example, Sheppy? Besides, it's easy enough to keep a physical copy of Steam around too, so keep flailing.

More to the point, I have actually used Steam. Once. To play Red Orchestra. Activication was relatively quick; but the "patching" process wasn't. God Damn it, I just want to play the game now to see what it's like, instead of having to wait xx minutes for a patch which automatically began downloading and installing without my consent to finish downloading from the Steam servers.

Oh no! You had to patch an online-only game! That's HORRIBLE! This is an emergency, you had to wait to be updated to the same versions as the servers. You had time that you couldn't play! Call the waaaahmbulance!

Of course, you can turn off automatic updates in Steam, but I suppose that doesn't matter either.

No, you're the one wailing around like a fucking moron, who has no idea of how bad copy protection CAN get.

We're talking specifically about Steam's authentication here Sheppy, with subsets into other methods of digital distribution. I know how bad copy protection can get, and I have yet to see a single shred of evidence that Steam's method is the great satan you're making it out to be. I just hear whining that other companies don't use it, so it must not be worthwhile or necessary, while you have yet to show how it is in any way harmful to the consumers. You advocate using patches to combat piracy, which means you can't be against some sort of online system, because all that patching bullshit doesn't do anything a central authentication server can't do, it just does it less effectively and with the same requirements, you need to be online.

No, that's your line.

Christ, now you're on the rubber and glue stage? Jesus Shep, that's just plain sad. Not only can't you make any good arguments, but you can't even think of any good insults. Not to mention you can't even live up to your own promises. Is there anything you're good at doing? I mean, other than adding that carbon to the O2?

It was a reply to your assertion that online server validation was the best, most secure method. And really, when you're paying $125 for the game, the $5 of the game's cost being taken up for a USB dongle isn't that much of a cost relatively speaking.

Most USB dongles are not $5. Can you back up your assertion that this one is? Not that it really matters, because this is in reference to digital distribution methods.

Excuse me, but I never said that. They're the best system to use for copy protection to defeat casual piracy, especially if you need a CD Key to play online; and they are not as intrusive as the other systems.

Remember, each dollar spent on a copy protection system and authentication server farm is a dollar less that can be spent on other aspects of the game; and in not a few cases, the copy protection can actually make the game buggy.

Meanwhile, Steam can easily afford such overhead, because they use primarily digital distribution, which has much lower costs than standard distribution. Moreover, each sale via Steam is worth more than a sale from a store, for obvious reasons. A more secure method than CD keys is beneficial because the more people you prevent from pirating the game, the more copies you are likely to sell. So far, this method seems to work well for Steam, while meanwhile not causing any serious problems, like making the games super-buggy. Start showing that Steam's method causes undue problems or shut the fuck up.

So you're going to flail wildly against a hard immutable fact of reality in the computer gaming world? Good luck with that. It's virtually impossible to catch every single bug in the game; and lets be honest, online downloading of patches are much superior to the old method.....getting a card and writing it to the game company to mail you a patch disk for the game... <snip meandering flashback>

and back i the world of the discussion at hand, let's set your strawman aside. If you're fine with copy protection included in patches you download online, you shouldn't have any problems at all with one-time online registration. Yet you do. No reason is given. Supply a reason or concede the fucking point already.

Oh yes, another story about Shock Force. It's a good thing that I didn't cannibalize my old computer when I upgraded; because it uses your beloved online activication/validation system to ensure that only one license for each game can be active at one time. Not a problem, no?

Ah, but you have to physically log into their authentication server from the original computer to "Deactivicate" your license before you can "activicate" it on your new computer.

So you can see why it was a good thing I had to build my new computer from 100% new parts instead of cannibalizing parts; otherwise I would have been shit out of luck with Shock Force.

When faced with such a retarded central server authentication scheme, I'll always pick CD Keys; because what if the central auth server goes down when the company goes out of business? (which is what happened to Harpoon 3 and ESellerate).

Huh? Oh god, I'm sorry, were you saying something? I forget, were we talking about Steam's authentication system, or some bullshit you pulled from your ass? Because I'm pretty sure it was the former. If you persist in senseless strawmen, why should I even continue having this conversation with you?

Funny you should say that. Seeing as at the ripe old age of 26, I've played all sorts of games with all kinds of copy protection, like random symbols written down on dark red paper (to deter xeroxing), which have to be entered each time you start up the game (Original Sim City, The Terminator), or where in order to actually proceed with the game, you have to have the sheet (Zak McKraken, where the sheet contains the airline codes you need to punch into ATMs to get a ticket to go to locations in the game), to having to flip through the god damn manual to find Word Seven, Line five, Paragraph two, Page 21 (Wing Commander, and a few Sierra Games).

How long you've been alive has nothing to do with how mature you are. You can stop whipping around your epeen, it's not impressive. Seriously, I don't fucking care. You can't stay on the subject, you can't defend a point. Hell, you can't even MAKE a point. Why are you still talking? Why don't you go off and crank one out to some overly complex military sim so you can pretend you have a functional brain?

Bottom line Shep, this is about Steam's copy protection, not any copy protection system you can possibly hope to bitch about. You made the argument that Steam's system is horrible, so get to it. I'm tired of hearing about all this other shit, get to the fucking point or concede.

[Uraniun235]

How much does Portal cost separately? It's the only one I care about.

Also, drop the whining. Come on, you acknowledged that buying all the addon packs would cost you $70; you wouldn't be complaining about that if Orange Box hadn't come along. Look at the positive; Orange Box gives you a $20 discount on all that extra stuff plus an extra copy of Half-Life 2 to give away to a friend.

Actually, it's more like a 100% discount, since I won't be buying Ep 2 or any of the other stuff that comes in the box. If they want to release "episodic content" whose episodes are 12+ months apart (and I believe I predicted that's how it would turn out) with 5 hours of gameplay, great. And if they want to charge expansion pack prices of $20 for them, well, okay. I'm not willing to pay that, but a lot of others did. But then they decide to bundle a bunch of stuff together and refuse to sell it separately to wring even more out of the consumer. I doubt I'm the only one who balks at that.

What shits me is that they're refusing to allow indivudual purchases online. I could totally understand them not wanting to have a bunch of different packages for retail; shelf space is precious. But part of the advantage of digital distribution is supposed to be the ability to do as much or as little as you like without having to worry about how many boxes and discs you'll have to print; Valve seems to be disregarding that in favor of "please buy HL2 all over again with our singular package offering ".

Either way, I'm not planning on blowing money on a second license for HL2, and seeing as I'm not really bummed out about not even having played Episode 1 yet, I'm content to wait until they release Ep 2 as an individual purchase option.

[Hotfoot]

As to the online activation, I was being dramatic when I said boycott, but there are still real problems with online activation of storebought products. There are lots of reasons people might not have internet access on their primary gaming systems. Maybe they're underage and their folks don't want them having internet on the PC in their room. Maybe they're in the military. Maybe they're self-medicating an Internet addiction by not having it in the house. Then there are the things that can go wrong and leave you staring at your desktop and trying to get tech support when it's your day off and you've been dying to play the game for months. I work at a bank, and we don't just have one way for a customer to positively ID himself, so if he forgot his ATM card or it got demagnetized he's screwed. Online activations are okay as long as there is also another way to activate, such as by phone. Otherwise, they're an imposition on the customer, and we have every right to protest.

Sounds like you're still being dramatic. Seriously, self-medicating an Internet Addiction? Holy shit, talk about reaching for special cases. Never mind that not EVERYONE in the military is gong to have the same limitation Lonestar has. You know, there's that whole thing about other branches than the Navy.

But hey, keep on living in that fantasy world where these awesome special cases are so common as to not be a statistical deviation.

By the way, giving kids PCs in their rooms? Internet capable or not (and they usually are, by the by), that's just ASKING for trouble. If you've got that sort of situation, you've got more to worry about than Steam's activation system.

Tell you what though. Find some source that gives any indication that such special cases are affecting any significant sales. Hell, even 1% would be an interesting case.

[MKSheppard]

Find some source that gives any indication that such special cases are affecting any significant sales. Hell, even 1% would be an interesting case.

A lot of the hard core audience on www.subsim.com refused to buy Silent Hunter 3 because of Starforce, so much that it was removed from SH4 IIRC.

[Hotfoot]

Sheppy, Sheppy, this isn't about Starforce, this is about Steam. Do try to pay attention, dear.

[Ace Pace]

You'll be happy to note that an old SM2 card is perfectly fine for UT3, and hell, I recall the minimum specifications being a 9800Pro. And minimum in the UT games is actually playable from my experiance.

I know, that's the worst part--the next gen engine is perfectly compatible with SM2, but bioshock just decided not to be. Hell, even Crysis is apparently SM2 compatible, but not the 'shock! Except that it IS, but you need a fan-made mod to do it so. How terribly lame is that?

It depends. SM2 makes alot of things harder. Alot of shaders you can do in SM3 are just longer in SM2. It's a cost benefit equation for them, in other words, is the amount of programmer hours spent on rewriting SM3 code into SM2(this is a simplification but go along with me) equalled by the extra sales in the dwindling amount of SM2 cards?

Sidenote: I do believe I called ATi staying with SM2 for an extra generation stupid right back in 2004.

[Covenant]

Well, Bioshock hasn't been out long, and already I can play though the majority of the game with all the textures fixed for an Sm2 card, so it obviously didn't take some amateur all that long to do it. If they had all the textures in a big flashdrive, I'm sure we could do it in a day or two just through a process of simple conversion.

The real thing about Bioshock though, is that I think they wanted to optimize it for the Xbox, and so they made some concessions. There was simply no need for Sm2 then, because XBoxes are already Sm3 compatible.

Plus, the 'new content' that they speak of--the extra plasmids--are already partially ingame, which is how we know what they are. They're just disabled right now--so the game could have shipped with the plasmids already activated, which would have been nice, as the selection they have right now is laughably slim. It is extremely easy to justify this on a console, just go and spend your wiipoints or whatever and download some bitz to add onto the game, but for a computer gamer, going to the store or buying a CD with like... 4 more plasmids on it isn't really a justifiable purchase. You'd hope it'd be for free, like a little bonus pack to benefit the non-haxors, but I doubt it will be less than 15.

I would absolutely love if the new pack also included Sm2 textures. If it did, boy would I buy it ever fast. I'd pay extra just to get my hands on the game without needing to use a fan-mod, just because I think I deserve to play it in a bit closer to the original vision, especially since my hardware is up to par.

So I honestly think that the money spent giving the guys one more job for a week would really have made the game accessible to a wide enough audience that it currently is not even playable for. I don't want to drop a giant wad of money to get a new compy just to play the game, especially when there's nothing making me besides the textures themselves. The game ENGINE plays. The textures were just black, originally, not somehow broken.

The real issue is that Sm3 lets them do a lot of fancy things with water and lighting effects and such, so it's quality control. By making it Sm3 only, there's no way of you looking at it on such an outdated card that it looks cruddy. Sadly, when you do install the Sm2 textures, a lot of the extra glitz is noticably missing, so the gameworld looks more like it would be on lower settings... which makes it look pretty awful, sadly. I'm just disappointed.

[Sea Skimmer]

It depends. SM2 makes alot of things harder. Alot of shaders you can do in SM3 are just longer in SM2. It's a cost benefit equation for them, in other words, is the amount of programmer hours spent on rewriting SM3 code into SM2(this is a simplification but go along with me) equalled by the extra sales in the dwindling amount of SM2 cards?

The number of programming hours required to do that was absolutely irrelevant, perhaps 10. In fact a single individual in the space of only a few days created a patch which allowed bioshock to run sm2, with some textures missing, and within a week even that had been fixed. They have no excuse for this, they just felt like being controlling assholes. Plenty of computers don’t support sm3 but still have more then enough power to run the game. Yeah it might not look so uber polished, so what? Why allow users to have adjustable quality settings to begin with if that actually matters?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Sounds like you're still being dramatic. Seriously, self-medicating an Internet Addiction? Holy shit, talk about reaching for special cases. Never mind that not EVERYONE in the military is gong to have the same limitation Lonestar has. You know, there's that whole thing about other branches than the Navy.

But hey, keep on living in that fantasy world where these awesome special cases are so common as to not be a statistical deviation.

By the way, giving kids PCs in their rooms? Internet capable or not (and they usually are, by the by), that's just ASKING for trouble. If you've got that sort of situation, you've got more to worry about than Steam's activation system.

Tell you what though. Find some source that gives any indication that such special cases are affecting any significant sales. Hell, even 1% would be an interesting case.

You're probably right. The more I write about the subject, the more it feels like I'm trying justify an emotional reaction instead of a logical conclusion.

[Zixinus]

I understand Valve wants to protect their games, but there has got to be some middle ground for situations like that.

Steam gives you benefits as well as some problems. Like auto-patching.

If you can figure out a system that would protect the game the developers spent years making and satisfy you, let me know. Hell, let the developers know. The only want to get money for their work. Steam is fairly good at that.

What's pissing me off is that they are essentially making HL3 using the HL2 engine and making us pay more for it.

What's pissing me off, is that that argument is stupid.

First off, the engine is updated with every new game. Episode two will have many things that HL2 didn't have.

Second, so what? Using the same engine the predecessor used is not necessarily bad. It's the gameplay that counts. Developers know what they can do with the existing engine, thus can pull it to the max.

Third, what more do you want? A game engine is a game engine, why does it have to be up-to-date? Obviously 10 year game engines that ran DOOM-clones is a bad choice, but this isn't the case. And really, if you upgraded your computer since then, then you can run the game more comfortably. As far as I know, the only significant advancement in game technology is a hellot of fancy shaders anyway.

Fourth, the only way that argument would be valid if they are trying to sell HL2 as HL3. That too, is not the case. We are seeing different gameplay, albeit with familiar material that was in the predecessor.

Fifth, "HL3" isn't using HL2's engine. It's using the Source engine. The Source engine is an engine, not the game. You pay for the game, not the engine.

Hey dipshit, if Quake 3 used the Quake 2 engine, don't you think people would have bitched? Moreover, if Quake 3 used the Q2 engine and was released in 3 parts over the span of 2+ years and you ended up having to pay $90+ for it, don't you think most people would have been even more pissed off?

It's their money. They can buy a different game from a different developer and a traditional publisher.

Gamers also bitch about anything. Well, people bitch about anything anyway, but really, its just that way.

I just take issue with the fact that their "episodic sequel" is taking forever and is costing me more than if they had just made HL3.

Dude, if they would have tried to do HL3 the traditional way with all the modern gizmos, AND WITH A NEW ENGINE, Valve would have taken goddamn forever. Look how long it took with HL2.

Also, game development is not exactly the same as 10 years ago. There is more money and they have to spend more time on it. You need to fiddle more with graphics then any other thing. Making a new engine for every new game is not a really that good idea, because making an engine and making a game is not the same.
Also making an engine from nothing isn't really that fun. It's sometimes best to just use an existing engine.

Yet all they need is a simple Serial number at install.

Serials can be faked or stolen. Very easily.
Where I live, software piracy isn't just huge, but they will look at you like an alien if you have a legal copy. It's not just there, it's not just accepted, it's the NORMAL way of getting software, including games.

Serials? Comes with copied CDs, along with the little program that works around any protection service with a mere copy and paste. People that don't know what F11 does in a web browser have no problem playing games they own illegally. And I've seen shelves stocked with illegal games.

Valve requires us to install an anally intensive application which can for whatever reason decide to not let us play our games, called Steam.

Dude, are you high? Steam ALLOWS you to play. Without Steam, you can't play.

Wow, So hard to keep track of the "bad serial numbers". Rolling Eyes

Wow. How clever. I cannot imagine how hard it will be for all those rum-drinking pirates to do another 5 seconds till they get another serial number or even a program that produces them!

And you seem to think that pirates are going to constantly crack each new patch so that pirates can update their game.

Ermm, because they do?

A USB Key Dongle, it's used for Steel Beasts Pro; you need to have a USB key physically inserted to be able to play the game.

What if my computer doesn't have USB? It's as likely problem as not having an internet connection nowadays. Also, what if I lose the Key Dongle or if it breaks?

The idea sounds great, mind you. I'm just not sure for the publisher too. Also, I'm pretty sure that that little gizmo can be emulated.

Online verification isn't a panacea; it can be cracked, and imposes additional overhead to the developers, in both developing the verification system, and actually keeping the verification servers running.

It is harder to crack, especially when it is done right. They keyword is "harder", as ANYTHING, ANY software can be cracked. If there is difficulty at cracking, especially at release when the sales are the most critical, then its worth it for the developers/publishers.

I have yet to see cracked patches to circumvent the blacklisted serials for any of them.

Because there is no need for them.

They.just.get.another.serial.

Any sort of copy-protection can and will be circumvented anyway - CD Keys offer the best ROI for your programming investment; you only need to have a young intern scanning pirate sites to find the serial numbers that are given for the games; and make sure that the next patch EXE says "INVALID SERIAL NUMBER" when those serials are put in.

Okay, I am now convinced that you are high.

Fist off, among the 5000 people that use an illegal serial, there is one that did, in fact, pay for it. Then the serial was stolen, even if the one person did not show that serial from anyone.

And the "young intern scanning pirate sites" is really just hilarious. Do you have any idea how many pirate sites are there and how resistant are they?

Cheap, and deters casual piracy without being onerous or assholish, meaning that when you're done with the game, you can simply give the CD/DVDs to a friend, along with the CD Key; and he can play it. No long convoluted sequence with the "Authentication Server" to transfer the license.

The problem here is "deters". It simply doesn't. If you know where to look, you can get allot of serials under 5 minutes and one of them bounds to work. There is no way that someone with internet access is going to buy a legal copy just to get a cd-key for a game he or she got illegally.

CD/DVD keys are worthless, except if it is verified online.

If the developers of an A+ title decide that even a routine CD Check isn't needed, then what is the point for central auth servers?

Because the auth server does what a routine CD check can't? That is, verify whether you have a legal copy or not? CD checks are easily tricked, you don't even need a crack.

And so what if there are a couple of pirates using CD Keys that they have obtained from their friends? The keys are useless within the pirating community unless they're released widely, and upon that, they can be found and blacklisted.

The problem here is "few". If you continue up this "blacklist any fake serial" is that you end up having more illegal serials then legal ones.

Then why have I yet to see cracked patches for Matrix games?

Why, do you check warez sites regularly? And every P2P network as well?

Then why have I yet to see cracked patches for Matrix games?

My wild guess: you haven't looked hard enough?

More to the point, I have actually used Steam. Once. To play Red Orchestra. Activication was relatively quick; but the "patching" process wasn't. God Damn it, I just want to play the game now to see what it's like, instead of having to wait xx minutes for a patch which automatically began downloading and installing without my consent to finish downloading from the Steam servers.

That is just ASKING for mockery.

They're the best system to use for copy protection to defeat casual piracy

In the days where internet access was rare, yes. Then there were less dumps and dumps of warez sites where you can get a serial under a minute.

Now, getting a serial is such a trivial matter then CD-key is simply worthless. Steam authority verification is not. It can be broken and there are ways around it, but its still tougher then CD-keys.