EU gives up trying to confuse British children.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-09-12 10:46pm

How can anyone in his right mind contest the superiority of the metric system? Just look at all the fucking Imperial units for length alone, each with its own name and a conversion factor you must memorize. Meanwhile, metric people just stick an SI prefix in front of "metre" for almost all length measurements of greater than atomic scale.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2007-09-12 11:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:How can anyone in his right mind contest the superiority of the metric system? Just look at all the fucking Imperial units for length alone, each with its own name and a conversion factor you must memorize. Meanwhile, metric people just stick an SI prefix in front of "metre" for almost all length measurements of greater than atomic scale.

As a moron on another board put it "I don't know the distance of it just by the name like I do with imperial!". You know, because initially being immersed in metric instead wouldn't have the exact same outcome, only reversed. I actually have the same problem, which pisses me off because metric is infinitely simpler.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-09-12 11:02pm

Except the prefixes are consistent, and used everywhere throughout all society - even in the US. There's no imperial fucking GIGABYTE, or MEGAHERTZ. So Americans already know SI prefixes, and remembering 'meter is distance' and 'gram is mass' is so easy children of 3 can do it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-09-12 11:12pm

Not only are Imperial units so fucking stupid that "pounds" can be used for both mass and force, but the mile has a different length depending on whether you're on land or at sea! The nautical mile is longer than the land mile. Not only that, but they use "ounces" as a unit of both weight and volume, and that unit varies depending on whether you're in the US or the UK! Even worse, the gallon is a unit of volume, and not only does it vary depending on whether you're in the US or the UK, but it varies between solids and fluids in the US!

Honestly, anyone who defends the Imperial system is a fucking retard.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2007-09-12 11:30pm

Darth Wong wrote:Not only are Imperial units so fucking stupid that "pounds" can be used for both mass and force, but the mile has a different length depending on whether you're on land or at sea! The nautical mile is longer than the land mile. Not only that, but they use "ounces" as a unit of both weight and volume, and that unit varies depending on whether you're in the US or the UK! Even worse, the gallon is a unit of volume, and not only does it vary depending on whether you're in the US or the UK, but it varies between solids and fluids in the US!

Honestly, anyone who defends the Imperial system is a fucking retard.

And this shit was supposed to have been dealt with about 30 years ago in this country. Hell, we lost a Mars probe a few years back because the contractor that built it forgot to switch from imperial to metric when programming the fucker. It's retarded.

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2007-09-12 11:33pm

Imperial measurements is why I basically cannot estimate the size/distance of anything. The units are so counterintuitive that I can't tell if a distance I just walked is 500 feet or 2 miles. It just doesn't connect at all.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-09-12 11:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:Anyway, far as I know anyone who uses pounds to express mass is using the unit incorrectly. I don't recall ever seeing such incorrect usage.
Try opening a physics textbook where they differentiate between lbm and lbf.

There are current physics textbooks that don't use SI units exclusively?

Darth Wong wrote:Not only are Imperial units so fucking stupid that "pounds" can be used for both mass and force, but the mile has a different length depending on whether you're on land or at sea! The nautical mile is longer than the land mile. Not only that, but they use "ounces" as a unit of both weight and volume, and that unit varies depending on whether you're in the US or the UK! Even worse, the gallon is a unit of volume, and not only does it vary depending on whether you're in the US or the UK, but it varies between solids and fluids in the US!

You forgot one thing. The ton is different in the UK and the US. The British version is 2240 pounds (~1016 kg), and the American version is 2000 lb (~907 kg).

Quite frankly it's so fucked-up I never bothered to try and comprehend it. Though due to simple exposure over time I do understand speed in miles per hour (but not distance in miles) and temperature in Farenheit (only between -40 and 212).

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2007-09-13 12:00am

Zac Naloen wrote:I'm pretty sure the fuss from the people who actually got involved in the proper protest about this was that they were trying to make Imperial illegal and actually tried to JAIL someone for using it. Which is just stupid.

From what I recall he was only using imperial thus breaking trading standards laws, there's no problem with using both metric & imperial units (many shops do) but for one someone like me who basically works in metric I can't judge if I'm getting ripped off with purely imperial units.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2007-09-13 12:09am

Darth Wong wrote:How can anyone in his right mind contest the superiority of the metric system? Just look at all the fucking Imperial units for length alone, each with its own name and a conversion factor you must memorize. Meanwhile, metric people just stick an SI prefix in front of "metre" for almost all length measurements of greater than atomic scale.

I was told in middle school that Imperial was like measuring with an iron bar and Metric was like measuring with a stretchy rubber band, therefore Metric was less accurate and by extension inferior.

I shit you not, Mike. This fucking bullshit is what's being taught to kids in redneck Louisiana.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2007-09-13 12:14am

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:How can anyone in his right mind contest the superiority of the metric system? Just look at all the fucking Imperial units for length alone, each with its own name and a conversion factor you must memorize. Meanwhile, metric people just stick an SI prefix in front of "metre" for almost all length measurements of greater than atomic scale.
I was told in middle school that Imperial was like measuring with an iron bar and Metric was like measuring with a stretchy rubber band, therefore Metric was less accurate and by extension inferior.

I shit you not, Mike. This fucking bullshit is what's being taught to kids in redneck Louisiana.

I vaguely recall being told something like that too in Elementary school.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2007-09-13 12:26am

Adrian Laguna wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:Anyway, far as I know anyone who uses pounds to express mass is using the unit incorrectly. I don't recall ever seeing such incorrect usage.
Try opening a physics textbook where they differentiate between lbm and lbf.
There are current physics textbooks that don't use SI units exclusively?

Yes, because it's important that people be able to cope with US Customary units if they encounter them. So began a tradition of engineering students pissing and moaning whenever they encounter a US Customary problem, the complete opposite of their countrymen.

Mike, my physics textbook did actually differentiate between lbf and lbm. Maybe that's something that's been emphasized more of late, as more textbook writers are as familiar with SI (and thus the silliness of lbf/lbm) as they are with US Customary.

Darth Wong wrote:Not only are Imperial units so fucking stupid that "pounds" can be used for both mass and force, but the mile has a different length depending on whether you're on land or at sea! The nautical mile is longer than the land mile.

I've never seen anybody write "mile" and mean "nautical mile". But there are a lot of idiots out there.

All that said, I fucking hate US Customary and I hope it burns in hell. Metric is, as far as I've ever been aware, superior in every way, shape and form.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2007-09-13 05:10am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
It's a way of life to the sad individuals who are obviously upset over losing Rover (a shitty BRITISH car company), a true blue water RN (because we really need to police the world now, yes?) and so on. .

Nonsense over imperial mesurement aside, why shouldnt Britian have a blue water navy? or why should the US have one?

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2007-09-13 05:39am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Nonsense over imperial mesurement aside, why shouldnt Britian have a blue water navy? or why should the US have one?

The ability to project signicant military power to distant parts of the earth is extremely expensive. The actual utility of that capability to the nation in question has to exceed the costs for it to be worthwhile, just like the utility of having a nuclear deterrent (though clearly both questions are extremely complicated ones).

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2007-09-13 05:47am

Starglider wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Nonsense over imperial mesurement aside, why shouldnt Britian have a blue water navy? or why should the US have one?
The ability to project signicant military power to distant parts of the earth is extremely expensive. The actual utility of that capability to the nation in question has to exceed the costs for it to be worthwhile, just like the utility of having a nuclear deterrent (though clearly both questions are extremely complicated ones).

Exactly, and its also very subjective. Britian obviously feels the need to retain a blue water navy, allthough I doubt those reasons include golden age romantisism given the costs involved.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-09-13 01:36pm

Darth Wong wrote:Not only are Imperial units so fucking stupid that "pounds" can be used for both mass and force, but the mile has a different length depending on whether you're on land or at sea! The nautical mile is longer than the land mile.

Some years ago there was court case over this - due to overfishing, there are limits where you can fish certain species. One fisherman was past the limit in statute miles but within the limits in nautical miles (the law didn't define which one). That said, the nautical mile at least makes some sense for its intended use (being roughly equivalent to one minute of latitude).

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-09-13 02:01pm

You'll get no argument from me that the US system of weights and measures is fucked up. I've been criticizing our refusal to switch for years. Unfortunately, corporate America will only switch when it becomes profitable to do so.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2007-09-13 02:34pm

Not sure how indicative or out of the blue this is, but both of my entry-level science courses so far in college (famous mainly for business), physics and chemistry, started with introductions to the metric system and both have exclusively used it.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-09-13 04:07pm

Darth Servo wrote:You'll get no argument from me that the US system of weights and measures is fucked up. I've been criticizing our refusal to switch for years. Unfortunately, corporate America will only switch when it becomes profitable to do so.

Well, many things in the US are sold on a dual-US/metric system.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-09-13 05:29pm

phongn wrote:Well, many things in the US are sold on a dual-US/metric system.

Meaning they show the equivalent in kg, L, km/s but the round figure is still in Imperial units.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2007-09-13 05:48pm

Darth Wong wrote:Not only are Imperial units so fucking stupid that "pounds" can be used for both mass and force, but the mile has a different length depending on whether you're on land or at sea! The nautical mile is longer than the land mile .

1 Nautical Mile is roughly IIRC equivalent to 1 degree of longitude or latitude; it's why everyone STILL measures ship speeds in knots (nm per hour)

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2007-09-13 05:50pm

Pick wrote:The units are so counterintuitive that I can't tell if a distance I just walked is 500 feet or 2 miles. It just doesn't connect at all.

2 miles = 1 hour of walking at a decent pace - 500 feet is about 1.5 football fields in lenght.

That simple enough for you?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-09-13 06:04pm

MKSheppard wrote:1 Nautical Mile is roughly IIRC equivalent to 1 degree of longitude or latitude; it's why everyone STILL measures ship speeds in knots (nm per hour)

One degree longitude at the artic circle is a rather different length than 1 degree longitude at the equator.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2007-09-13 08:07pm

Here's what a retarded person (CX) who doesn't think the metric system is superior to the imperial system sounds like.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-09-13 08:33pm

Darth Servo wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:1 Nautical Mile is roughly IIRC equivalent to 1 degree of longitude or latitude; it's why everyone STILL measures ship speeds in knots (nm per hour)
One degree longitude at the artic circle is a rather different length than 1 degree longitude at the equator.

The nautical mile is defined as a minute of a degree at the equator. There are 360 degrees, each degree has 60 minutes, therefore each nautical mile is 1/21,600 of the distance around the equator.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2007-09-13 08:50pm

Howedar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Not only are Imperial units so fucking stupid that "pounds" can be used for both mass and force, but the mile has a different length depending on whether you're on land or at sea! The nautical mile is longer than the land mile.
I've never seen anybody write "mile" and mean "nautical mile". But there are a lot of idiots out there.

It happens with pilots on occassion. Typically, the pilots know from the context of the conversation which is meant, but for others outside of the group clarification may be necessary. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens with sailors, too, but those are both distinct minorities, and only a sub-set of them world-wide are still even using those measurements.

I can understand if someone has spent 40 or 50 years using/conversing solely in Imperial being somewhat resistant to completely convert to metric in that it is somewhat comparable to being told your native language is no longer acceptable. Even if the native tongue is crazy with irregular grammer and random spellings and confusing phonemes, it's what the old fart knows. That said, they can certainly learn a new system, but just because the system makes more sense doesn't mean it will be learned overnight on an intuitive level. The old fart can estimate a pound weight of something, or a speed of X mph, but can't estimate a kilogram or X kph without practice. If you've spent a half century thing 20 degrees is cold it's hard to switch to thinking it's room temperature. I think that's where a lot of the discomfort can come from.

Personally, I don't have an issue with some "bilingual labeling" until the old farts die off. Even in the Evil Imperial US beverages are sold in liter units much of the time, and weights/volumes of packaged food appears in grams and kgs as well as ounces and pounds. (It does help that a liter and a quart are approximately equal, and 500 grams is close to a pound) Public thermometers on bank signs have been displaying tempearture in both Farenheit and Celcius since I was a kid. For that matter, both my vehicles have the speedometer marked in both mph and kph. Such dual labeling will help keep the old farts from killing people by, for example, improper speeds on the roads while encouraging (or at least making possible) the transition of the younger generation to metric.

But while there are many, many airplanes in the US still labeled in Imperial, I can also assure you that the newer ones I've flown typically have had metric measurements translated to Imperial for the US market. Hell, the new US licensing category has weight limits that, although expressed in pounds, is really based on a European limit set in kilograms.

But if you BAN all mention of the old units while the old farts are still around you'll get resistance. It's human nature. Permitting dual use for a generation or even two won't please the HURRY UP AND CHANGE GODDAMMIT crowd, but it might be more practical as far as mimizing disruption. Converting every road sign to metric might be a good idea on one level, but it would be expensive and you have to wonder if maybe it's not the best way to expend public funds (perhaps make the change as the signs need replacing over the course of time).