9 million stormtroopers

[The Dark]

Simple curiosity: where the 9216 number of clones come from?

From the Insider #84 article Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic written by Karen Traviss and Ryan Kaufman and which describes the order of battle of the GAR. Of course, the figures does not match anything seen in neither AOTC or ROTS. For example, at the end of AOTC, we see clone troopers in formations of 624 men. Now, the article claims that a battalion has 576 troops and if we assume that the formations seen at the end of AOTC are battalions (and applying the same principles as the article), then a legion would have no less than 9,984 troops. A small difference perhaps, but I find it strange that visual evidence from the movies aren't used when it's so easy to use it.

It could have been a post-Geonosis change. I can think of a couple justifications. The first would be having extra troops in the first battalions because they'd be on the sharp end with no reinforcement, meaning higher casualties. The Kaminoans could also have been uncertain as to the most efficient size, and found that the early formations weren't a good size for combat (for whatever reason). Alternatively, it may have been due to certain smaller ships having a capacity between the two sizes, so the smaller battalion could be transported intact, but the larger couldn't. There are plenty of ways to justify the smaller battalion and legion sizes; the difficulty comes in determining which reasons make sense. The impossibility is figuring an out-of-universe justification beyond lazy writer syndrome.

[Connor MacLeod]

Traviss didn't "start" the "minimalist" Clone Army problem, but her behaviour and atittudes served to entrench it more firmly and she became its most vocal defender (particularily after alot of the statements she made and the tactics she pulled through her lackeys. And the Mandowank hasn't helped either.) And the Insider article wasn't her alone.. that Kaufman guy was involved too.

R.A. Salvatore first entrenched it with the AOTC novelization and the "million clone warriors" comment between Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

[Publius]

It is worth noting that Star Wars Insider no. 96 only says that "about a third of the stormtroopers at the time of Episode IV are Jango-based clones, though not all of those clones had reached battle-readiness before the end of the Clone Wars," and that "It hasn't been determined how many of those clones actually fought in the Clone Wars."

Simple mathematics dictates that this claim cannot be used to claim a figure of nine millions, even judging solely by the evidence of the EU itself, without resort to the constraints of realism.

The Imperial Sourcebook states that the commonest Imperial Star Destroyer carries a MARDET of 9,700 stormtroopers, and that each Sector Group contains 24 Star Destroyers (i.e., 232,800 stormtroopers embarked as MARDETs); it further states that there are "thousands of Sector Groups ... at the Emperor's command," establishing that there must be at least 465.6 million stormtroopers on board the Empire's Star Destroyers alone. Rules of Engagement: The Rebel SpecForce Handbook adds that each Sector is also assigned at least three MARDIVs (assuming a relatively modest 10,000 stormtroopers per MARDIV, this adds another 60 millions to the MARDETs figure), apart from the single Marine battalion assigned to each garrison, and further detachments on board smaller ships and stationed at various Naval stations, bases, shipyards, dockyards, hospitals, and support activities throughout the Sector. With more than 530 million stormtroopers stationed throughout the Empire as part of Sector-based forces alone, the lower limit of Jango Fett clones can be set at around 177 millions.

It is worth noting that "Pax Empirica -- The Wookiee Annihilation" had already established that some 45% of all stormtroopers were GeNodes, from a clone template other than Jango Fett, and that there are at least three other clone templates in current use; the Jango Fett clones are substantially outnumbered by more modern models (more than 239 million stormtroopers belong to one particular GeNode template alone).

[VT-16]

"about a third of the stormtroopers at the time of Episode IV are Jango-based clones, though not all of those clones had reached battle-readiness before the end of the Clone Wars," and that "It hasn't been determined how many of those clones actually fought in the Clone Wars."

If this is from the actual article, then basically, LFL bought their way out of the 3 mill controversy. Hey, win-win. 8)

[Phantasee]

I don't understand how people can't imagine trillions of clones. I mean, I have trouble imagining it, but I can picture a few hundred million of them, replicated many times to achieve the trillions.

If I can do it, why can't they?

[Admiral Drason]

I don't understand how people can't imagine trillions of clones. I mean, I have trouble imagining it, but I can picture a few hundred million of them, replicated many times to achieve the trillions.

If I can do it, why can't they?

Simply your average person is an idiot. These are the same people who can't grasp the age of the earth or even the sun because those numbers are so "big". They also can't comprehend how large the galaxy is because that seems like a long distance.

[lord Martiya]

It's probable. Very probable.

[Ender]

"about a third of the stormtroopers at the time of Episode IV are Jango-based clones, though not all of those clones had reached battle-readiness before the end of the Clone Wars," and that "It hasn't been determined how many of those clones actually fought in the Clone Wars."

If this is from the actual article, then basically, LFL bought their way out of the 3 mill controversy. Hey, win-win.

No, they dodged the issue. They didn't fix it or buy their way out. Buying their way out would be saying something along the lines of saying the total size of the GAR is Classified for Reasons of Imperial Security but saying that original Jango clones make up 1/3rd

[TC Pilot]

Frankly, I think it's about time we get to see more of the Imperial Army, rather than endlessly showcase the Empire's elite core. Same thing goes for the Republic.

[Drowsong]

R.A. Salvatore first entrenched it with the AOTC novelization and the "million clone warriors" comment between Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

Ah crap, I like Salvatore too

[VT-16]

Buying their way out would be saying something along the lines of saying the total size of the GAR is Classified for Reasons of Imperial Security but saying that original Jango clones make up 1/3rd

1/3rd what?

Look, if this only says stuff about the ANH era Stormtroopers and tie it back with the total number of clones serving in the CW being unknown, that's good enough for me. Miles better than LFL's original "solution".

[PainRack]

R.A. Salvatore first entrenched it with the AOTC novelization and the "million clone warriors" comment between Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

Ah crap, I like Salvatore too

Frankly, Salvatore only started the slide into this brainfart.There really is no problem in imaging that an initial clone army was only 1.2 million strong. After all, it was only an initial first batch and additional batches of clonetroopers were well on the way.

The problem was when they kept the 1,2 million months after the war, or KT who fixed the GAR at 3 million 1 year after.
It gets worse when authors would simultaneously throw out two viewpoints, such as Cestus Deception which had clones were cheap and easy to replace/grow such that the admiral had no qualms about wasting clonetroopers in training exercises, but there was only 1.2 million clonetroopers, even this late into the war.

[FTeik]

R.A. Salvatore first entrenched it with the AOTC novelization and the "million clone warriors" comment between Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

Ah crap, I like Salvatore too

You can also argue that Obi-Wan and Mace Windu were wrong in their talk about the number of clones confusing units with single soldiers (after all it wasn't the first clone-army the Kaminoans developed), if the Jedi have run into clone-armies before (but nothing on the size of 1.2 million men or something necessary to wage a galaxy-wide war with). After all Salvatore gave us thousands of ships in the battle of Geonosis, too.

[Hot Hands Harry]

I would just like to point out that ironically in “Odds” it established a upper limit of 460 days for a Kamino clone to be born, grown, trained and ready for combat.

In the first Battle of Kamino all 1 million new ready to be deployed clones were killed and 1-3 million unready clones were killed. Basically wiping out all clones in production in the City of Tipoca.

“Odds” established that Tipoca was still producing clones and that there is a batch ready to be deployed 460 days after the Battle of Genonosis.

Since the Kominoens style is to produce 4 to 5 staggered batches at the same time (eggs, infants, preteen, teenager and ready to be deployed) that’s 1 million clones from Tipoca alone every 115 days or 92 days as a upper limit.

Since the Battle of Kamino happened about two months after Genonosis the number could be lowered to just 400 days. Meaning 1 million clones every 100 to 80 days. I like this and it matches the established fact that it takes more then a year to grow a non mad clone.



By the way “Odds” also established that three clone army producing companies were nationalized and forced to produce clones for the Republic some time early in the war.

[lord Martiya]

One of these companies is probably the Spaarti Corporation.

[Ghost Rider]

One of these companies is probably the Spaarti Corporation.

So any proof towards this supposition or just one noting spam about a maybe could be?

[PainRack]

To sidetrack this discussion, has there been any official fluff on why
1. The citizens of the Galactic Empire apparently dislike clones(in early EU)
2. The citizens of the Galactic Empire only had rumours that the Stormtrooper corps were clone based?

[lord Martiya]

One of these companies is probably the Spaarti Corporation.

So any proof towards this supposition or just one noting spam about a maybe could be?

I'm wrong about the name of the company, but THIS is where I come from with the supposition.

[Ghost Rider]

One of these companies is probably the Spaarti Corporation.

So any proof towards this supposition or just one noting spam about a maybe could be?

I'm wrong about the name of the company, but THIS is where I come from with the supposition.

So one noting spam, and providing an article that goes to tells us about the origins of what is likely the fuel behind the whole Thrawn series.

So not even a maybe could be, given what the article tells us, just something you're pulling from your ass.

[lord Martiya]

It's simply an hypothesis, extrapolated from an idea of Zahn, not a spam. If you don't know, in normal condition a Spaarti cloning cylinder in normal condition create a clone in one year and 21 days in special conditions (see HERE), so it's moronic don't nationalize the company that can create a full grown clone soldier in a tenth of the time of the Kaminoan methods.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Weren't they also prone to going completely psychopathic?

[Ghost Rider]

It's simply an hypothesis, extrapolated from an idea of Zahn, not a spam. If you don't know, in normal condition a Spaarti cloning cylinder in normal condition create a clone in one year and 21 days in special conditions (see HERE), so it's moronic don't nationalize the company that can create a full grown clone soldier in a tenth of the time of the Kaminoan methods.

And once again dumbfuck, you failed to read or understand those special conditions required an outside critter that is explictly stated in the very trilogy that Zahn wrote as....what is that...oh yes, secret and off limits. By the Emperor himself.

So literally you put one note spam because none of this was in your initial post. And you still cannot even provide how that Spaarti was one of the three major companies in the Clone Army.

Care to spew some more halfassed clap trap?

[lord Martiya]

Weren't they also prone to going completely psychopathic?

Yes, they were. I think that this was the reason in use Kaminoan clones over Spaarti ones.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Weren't they also prone to going completely psychopathic?

Yes, they were. I think that this was the reason in use Kaminoan clones over Spaarti ones.

So wouldn't the government close the company right the fuck down and confiscate everything rather than nationalize and let dangerous clones loose upn their Empire?

[phongn]

The problem wasn't the Spaarti method, the problem was that clones grew too quickly would resonate with the original in the Force. Slowing the process down (or using ysalimiri) fixed that.