Palpatine and the Lusankya

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2007-09-13 10:31am

Indeed. They're Sith Acolytes waiting for the earliest chance to run him through.

It's simply more plausible to say Palpatine clouded everyone's minds than to concoct these increasingly convoluted theories.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2007-09-13 04:33pm

So don't give me this bullshit about your theory being better, or pretend you've met your burden of proof so you can try to pawn it off on me. You didn't bother to fucking think it through, and the gaping flaws in your theory are obvious (at least to anyone with some understanding, anyhow.) So either back up your claims or concede.

Fair enough, I concede. I really don't see why my theory seems to have offended you so much though. The point of this thread is to generate ideas, I suggested one which I thought was the most rational of those others had come up with, and you rip my head off as if the very concept has personally offended you. I've never said it was definitely right, I just thought that a cloak being involved is a possibility. Calm down.

It's simply more plausible to say Palpatine clouded everyone's minds than to concoct these increasingly convoluted theories.

And what about sensors/droids etc which Palpatine can't do this with?

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2007-09-13 05:08pm

What makes you think he couldn't? Comparative nobodies like Alema Rar were able to hide her presence with ease from mechanical observation. Plus he could easily employ Imperial Intelligence to memory wipe any number of droids or delete sensor records.

Plus, it's not like any rational person will believe a droid when it claims it saw a Super Star Destroyer land next door.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2007-09-13 06:28pm

TC Pilot wrote:What makes you think he couldn't? Comparative nobodies like Alema Rar were able to hide her presence with ease from mechanical observation. Plus he could easily employ Imperial Intelligence to memory wipe any number of droids or delete sensor records.

Plus, it's not like any rational person will believe a droid when it claims it saw a Super Star Destroyer land next door.

Oh I'm sure Palpatine could hide himself from mechanical observation. This, however, is utterly irrelevant to the point at hand.

If II operatives were used, Palpatine would probably have had to then erase the memories of each one, or kill them, to prevent any word of what was done getting out. A huge Intel force would be necessary, we're talking enough so that the video log of a window cleaning droid on the side of a starscraper would be erased. It's not a matter of 'believing' a droid when tens of millions to billions of droid memory banks blatantly show the Lusankya. I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible, it just sounds a bit strained.

I think the combined suggestion by Lex of cloak AND mindfuck sounds like a good idea, since it would remove the above problems, but similarly negate several of the issues Connor pointed out with a pure cloak hypothesis.

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2007-09-13 08:28pm

Lazarus wrote:Oh I'm sure Palpatine could hide himself from mechanical observation. This, however, is utterly irrelevant to the point at hand.

Ah, so Palpatine would only be able to influence mechanical surveillance equipment when it's pointed at him?

If II operatives were used, Palpatine would probably have had to then erase the memories of each one, or kill them, to prevent any word of what was done getting out.

Oh right, because Intelligence agents would never be trusted with sensitive information and immediately alert the Rebels and general populace.

You seem to be forgetting that Imperial Intelligence used the damn ship as a prison and interrogation center.

A huge Intel force would be necessary, we're talking enough so that the video log of a window cleaning droid on the side of a starscraper would be erased.

Doubtful. No one would check video logs of most droids, and almost all the rest would be lost in routine memory wipes. That, along with Palpatine's Force powers, solves the problem.

I think the combined suggestion by Lex of cloak AND mindfuck sounds like a good idea, since it would remove the above problems, but similarly negate several of the issues Connor pointed out with a pure cloak hypothesis.

Ah, concede your argument and immediately present it again in the next post? Brilliant strategy!

And no, your theory does not address any of the issues Connor raised, since according to you, Palpatine could only influence mechanical devices aimed at him (

), leaving us with a theory where Palpatine cloaks a ship so no one sees it, and uses the Force so... no one sees it.

Or, we could stop, think for a moment, not cling to an overly complicated and unsatisfactory theory, and go with one simpler and more plausible, i.e. Palpatine used the Force so no one noticed.

The_Saint · Post by **The_Saint** » 2007-09-15 01:38am

Something I thought of that came up in a conversation I had recently and made me think of this...

With the cloak [of a ship] in place the ship is double blind and therefore not going to be able to find the planet to land on....

In the Thrawn trilogy Jorus C'Boath controls the crew of a cloaked ship (at least one, possibly two) via the force, piloting one inside a shield, lining them up and then having them fire together to simulate a turbolaser shot seemingly passing through a shield.

Is it conceivable that the Lusankya arrived at Curascant as the Executer, cloaked, was "piloted" by Palpatine to the surface, covered over and the cloaking system removed for use elsewhere.

To me this doesn't seem so over the top. The cloak removes the mindfucking of the populace, the ships under its own power so doesn't require the force for motive power

Just a thought.

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2007-09-15 01:46am

Refer to Connor MacLeod for a rebuttal.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-09-15 05:00am

Lazarus wrote:Fair enough, I concede. I really don't see why my theory seems to have offended you so much though. The point of this thread is to generate ideas, I suggested one which I thought was the most rational of those others had come up with, and you rip my head off as if the very concept has personally offended you. I've never said it was definitely right, I just thought that a cloak being involved is a possibility. Calm down.

Thanks for the backhanded concession. In case you failed to notice, you rather obviousyl didn't give your "cloaking" theory a great deal of thought, but when you get called on it you tried bluffing your way through (again, without giving it a great deal of thought.) Don't whine about it or try to foist it off on me "having a problem" when you decided to argue the issue to begin with (instead of, perhaps, asking WHY the theory was "convoluted" or might have violated Occam's Razor if you didnt know/understand why.)

And what about sensors/droids etc which Palpatine can't do this with?

Gee, you didn't read my response very well did you? I commented that Luke has "fucked with" electronic surveillance and recording gear to cover his tracks/obscure his presence in the Black Fleet crisis (partiuclarily Tyrant's Test). I also commneted that there existed means in the Force of "cloaking" things, which could address things that your theory could not.

I even commented that its not strictly neccessary to employ the Force to "knock out" droids as extensively as you claim. EMP/ionization bombing (under the guise of terrorist attack) and/or some massive power grid failure would cover that as well. Handling the insertion at a "low activity" time would also assist. Moreover, did you not watch AOTC? There are parts of Coruscant that AREN'T massively or densely populated (THe Works, where Sidious hid out.) which is going to have a BIG impact on the sortt of "observable populace" that might witness anything to do with the ship.

At most, that requires one or two assumptions on the part of Palpatine's abilities. (or what he could pull off) and they aren't that grandiose, given that the situation is one that allows him ample preparation, time, and access to assistants who could cover otehr aspects (like screwing with droids or electronics or whatnot.)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-09-15 05:02am

The_Saint wrote:Something I thought of that came up in a conversation I had recently and made me think of this...

With the cloak [of a ship] in place the ship is double blind and therefore not going to be able to find the planet to land on....

In the Thrawn trilogy Jorus C'Boath controls the crew of a cloaked ship (at least one, possibly two) via the force, piloting one inside a shield, lining them up and then having them fire together to simulate a turbolaser shot seemingly passing through a shield.

Is it conceivable that the Lusankya arrived at Curascant as the Executer, cloaked, was "piloted" by Palpatine to the surface, covered over and the cloaking system removed for use elsewhere.

To me this doesn't seem so over the top. The cloak removes the mindfucking of the populace, the ships under its own power so doesn't require the force for motive power

Just a thought.

Unless Palpatine Telekinetically manipulates the ship onto the surface of the planet, it doesn't negate the fact the ship is going to be a big, noticable, and detectible objects in the atmosphere, even under cloak - its engine and repulsor emissions, potentail waste heat, atmospheric disturbances (including noise, friction, and vibration,) and so on and so forth.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-09-15 05:07am

As for the whole "using Imperial intelligence" bit....

After all, Wedge thought it was MORE plausible that Palpatine simply massacred countless millions/billions of people to cover up its hiding spot. That would ALSO neccesitate many of the "claimed" activities (wiping droids and sensor data, etc.) in addition to disposing of and covering up the existence of countless Coruscanti residents.

Under the "mind control' bit we don't even know how many droids or sensors would be of potential problem. It's not really remotely reasonable to expect them to automatically be "looking" at the sky or space every single moment of the day to "just so happen" to catch this. Nevermind the issue of population distribution or whatnot.

And anyhow, what the hell prevents Palpy from sending a blanket "command" to those he's mindfucking to "shut down all the sensors and droids you have on hand?"

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2007-09-15 05:16am

The_Saint wrote:Something I thought of that came up in a conversation I had recently and made me think of this...

With the cloak [of a ship] in place the ship is double blind and therefore not going to be able to find the planet to land on....

In the Thrawn trilogy Jorus C'Boath controls the crew of a cloaked ship (at least one, possibly two) via the force, piloting one inside a shield, lining them up and then having them fire together to simulate a turbolaser shot seemingly passing through a shield.

Is it conceivable that the Lusankya arrived at Curascant as the Executer, cloaked, was "piloted" by Palpatine to the surface, covered over and the cloaking system removed for use elsewhere.

To me this doesn't seem so over the top. The cloak removes the mindfucking of the populace, the ships under its own power so doesn't require the force for motive power

Just a thought.

yeah, but then you have the sensors recognizing the engergy output of the ship... but I agree, then you only have to edit the droids and computer memory and dont have to mindfuck billions of people... furthermore, you dont need a crew to know about your secret!

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-09-15 05:20am

I'm getting a ltitle tired of you people acting as if the "millions/billions" bit is not established in canon. I provided quotes. Chris O'Farrell provided fucking quotes.

GET THE FUCK OVER IT. THe mind-fucking bit is not debatable. Live with it.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2007-09-16 02:06pm

Let me clarify the suggestion I'm making here, and see if we can actually deal with it as a suggestion, and rather than a definitive case (which seems to be the misconception that is causing an argument here, sorry if that's my fault for poor wording). I'm not trying to prove an argument, I'm just trying to suggest a possible theory. I conceeded earlier because I felt that I was giving the wrong impression and causing this to get heated, so I'll move on to a new point.

I am now making this point: Is it not possible that a cloak was involved in some form, in tandem with Palpatine's force powers?

My reasoning for this suggestion is that a plan involving BOTH Palpatine's force powers AND a cloak is more reasonable than one purely involving Palpy's force powers. This is because it would make things massively simpler in terms of recordable evidence which would have to be dealt with by Palpatine in some way.

Could he do it without a cloak? Quite possibly. Would it be much easier to do it with a cloak? Definitely.

By cloaking the Lucy, and then using his force powers to guide the ship in (not necessarily bring it down: ref- Joruus C'Boath), the visual evidence has been almost removed in one fell sweep. Yes, there are issues with collisions etc, but I believe these could be resolved by clearing a flight vector (and if the landing zone IS the works, then lower atmosphere traffic will not be massive). Yes, there are issues with engine emissions, but again these can be solved (or lessened) as above, and are present regardless of how the ship is landed (I would point out that the Lusankya may well have it's repulsor sled installed at this time).

Ah, so Palpatine would only be able to influence mechanical surveillance equipment when it's pointed at him?

I'm not familiar with the source in question, I thought you meant the individual had cloaked themselves, rather than directly affected the mechanical systems. Regardless, I'm not aware of a source which describes controlling machines on this scale in tandem with controlling massive amounts of people. I'm not saying this proves Palpatine couldn't do it, because it doesn't, I'm saying this may show it would have made things simpler if a cloak was used.

You seem to be forgetting that Imperial Intelligence used the damn ship as a prison and interrogation center.

And you seem to be forgetting that Isard, as Director of II, could find no explanation for how it was done. If II operatives knew, she would know.

Doubtful. No one would check video logs of most droids, and almost all the rest would be lost in routine memory wipes. That, along with Palpatine's Force powers, solves the problem.

But if even one recording survives, then there is evidence to prove what happened. Can Palpatine take that risk? Clearly the lengths he went to to prevent information leaking out suggests to me that he wouldn't do so.

Ah, concede your argument and immediately present it again in the next post? Brilliant strategy!

Do you want to get the thread closed now then? Because apparently this has been decided, and the idea that I might want to continue discussion with others is ridiculous. I never wanted to prove that a cloak was definitely used, I just want to put the possibility on the table for discussion. Members have pointed out problems with the idea that only a cloak was used, so I agreed that that was not possible. I then suggested that a hybrid scheme might have been used. Why is this objectionable?

Thanks for the backhanded concession. In case you failed to notice, you rather obviousyl didn't give your "cloaking" theory a great deal of thought, but when you get called on it you tried bluffing your way through (again, without giving it a great deal of thought.)

My apologies, I didn't intend this to be the case. You are correct in that I didn't form a cogent argument for the idea that only a cloak was used, but then I didn't really intend to - I was just trying to suggest one of many possible ideas (which you have now correctly pointed out as impractical). I agree that there needs to be force intevention from Palpatine on a considerable level, but is it unreasonable to suggest that a cloak could have been used in tandem with this?

I commented that Luke has "fucked with" electronic surveillance and recording gear to cover his tracks/obscure his presence in the Black Fleet crisis (partiuclarily Tyrant's Test).

But has this been done on such a scale before?

At most, that requires one or two assumptions on the part of Palpatine's abilities. (or what he could pull off) and they aren't that grandiose, given that the situation is one that allows him ample preparation, time, and access to assistants who could cover otehr aspects (like screwing with droids or electronics or whatnot.)

All good points, but does this necessarily mean that the use of a cloak would have been too complicated to negate the possible benefits when used in tandem with Palpatine's force powers?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-09-17 02:48am

Dammit, if you're going to reply to me, do it separate to everyone else's posts. I hate having to dig my own replies out of everyone elses. Or at the very least, ,specify whose parts are what.

Lazarus wrote:Let me clarify the suggestion I'm making here, and see if we can actually deal with it as a suggestion, and rather than a definitive case (which seems to be the misconception that is causing an argument here, sorry if that's my fault for poor wording). I'm not trying to prove an argument, I'm just trying to suggest a possible theory. I conceeded earlier because I felt that I was giving the wrong impression and causing this to get heated, so I'll move on to a new point.

I am now making this point: Is it not possible that a cloak was involved in some form, in tandem with Palpatine's force powers?

My reasoning for this suggestion is that a plan involving BOTH Palpatine's force powers AND a cloak is more reasonable than one purely involving Palpy's force powers. This is because it would make things massively simpler in terms of recordable evidence which would have to be dealt with by Palpatine in some way.

Could he do it without a cloak? Quite possibly. Would it be much easier to do it with a cloak? Definitely.

By cloaking the Lucy, and then using his force powers to guide the ship in (not necessarily bring it down: ref- Joruus C'Boath), the visual evidence has been almost removed in one fell sweep. Yes, there are issues with collisions etc, but I believe these could be resolved by clearing a flight vector (and if the landing zone IS the works, then lower atmosphere traffic will not be massive). Yes, there are issues with engine emissions, but again these can be solved (or lessened) as above, and are present regardless of how the ship is landed (I would point out that the Lusankya may well have it's repulsor sled installed at this time).

I am getting a bit tired of repeating myself. This iwll be the last time. Yes, ye could do it. No, it won't make it easier, and its a needlessly complex addition that adds nothing.

You keep claiming things like sensor logs and droids pose a problem. If we go by that route, ,how does the cloak solve this? as I have already (repeatedly) mentioned, a cloaking device is not some magical "make everything detectable vanish" solution, not unless you turn the ship into a frigging rock (which makes getting it onto the planet problematic) You need ion engines and repulsors, ,and those emissions (nevermind atmospheric considerations) will make this multi trillion ton starship EXTREMELY detectable, cloak or no cloak.

Moreover, if Palpy has to use the Force to mask those aforementioend side effects from the humans, why can he suddenly now ignore droids and sensors? They're going to be just as capable of picking up eveythingI pointed out as the huumans are. So you're still left with the "droids and sensors detecting things and making logs" problem you complain about.

Your own logic makes the cloaking shield unneccessary, because of those self-same droids and sensors you complain about! This is not simpler.

By the way, I notice you ignored the whole "Palpy mind-ordering people to shut off all sensors/droids that might notice the Lusankya." bit, nevermidn any other possibility I mentioned.

My apologies, I didn't intend this to be the case. You are correct in that I didn't form a cogent argument for the idea that only a cloak was used, but then I didn't really intend to - I was just trying to suggest one of many possible ideas (which you have now correctly pointed out as impractical). I agree that there needs to be force intevention from Palpatine on a considerable level, but is it unreasonable to suggest that a cloak could have been used in tandem with this?

Yes, it is, because you're getting bloody repetitive, and you're not grasping the fact of how utterly redundant the cloaking device is. Again, how do you propose to mask the emissions of the Lusankya's engines and repulsors and the atmospheric effects of a multi trillion ton starship inside a planet's atmosphere from droids and sensors? The cloak won't do that, so what use is it?

But has this been done on such a scale before?

Which is where the "one or two assumptions on my part" come in. I'm also going to point out that its somewhat dishonest for you to be nitpicking whether something is hypothetically possible when your own theory is FAR more theoretical (nevermind problematical.) Especially when, by all evidednce, the SSD-sized cloaking shields don't exist (nevermind if they will do anything to hide the ship in an atmosphere.)

Besides, going by your own logic, you ALSO need Palpy mindfucking with those things to make your cloaking theory work. (or if not that, one of the other altenrratives I proposed.)

All good points, but does this necessarily mean that the use of a cloak would have been too complicated to negate the possible benefits when used in tandem with Palpatine's force powers?

Again, what possible point is there using the cloak if you still need Palpy to prevent people, droids, and sensors and whatnot to mask those things that the cloak can't hide?

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2007-09-17 07:30am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Again, what possible point is there using the cloak if you still need Palpy to prevent people, droids, and sensors and whatnot to mask those things that the cloak can't hide?

I agree with your argument that the use of a cloak is not practical on it's own, and by no means does it make the task massively easier, but I still think that Palpy might as well have used one if he had access to one (you're right about us not knowing for definite that he does, although I'd say the Terror shows that it is a possiblility). This is because, although the cloak still has issues with detectability as you say, these would be evident anyway, so it can't make things any more difficult than they already are. The cloak provides benefits by masking the Lusankya from sight by the population and visual recording devices such as droids and surveillance equipment. In this respect, the task would be made easier for Palpatine, and as such, I suggest that if he had the resources to cloak the ship, he would have done so. Essentially, the point I'm making is that using a cloak can't have hurt (as far as I'm aware), and makes the operation easier in several respects, so if Palpatine could have used one, he would have.