Taiwanese march to back UN bid

[Sidewinder]

From BBC News:

At least 100,000 people have marched in Taiwan in support of a government plan to hold a referendum on joining the UN under the name Taiwan.

The UN has rejected previous bids from the island to join the body under its official name, Republic of China.

The bids anger Beijing, which sees Taiwan as a breakaway province. China has vowed to use force if Taiwan took steps towards formal independence.

China's opposition means Taiwan's bids for a UN seat are certain to fail.

The march, in the southern city of Kaohsiung, attracted hundreds of thousands of people according to organisers, while police said 100,000 took part.

Switched recognition

Kaohsiung is a power base for the ruling Democratic Progressive Party's (DPP) presidential candidate Frank Hsieh.

The government intends to time the referendum with the presidential vote next March.

Analysts say the DPP hopes the referendum debate will shore up its support in the elections.

"Give Taiwan a chance to join the UN," Mr Hsieh told a crowd in Kaohsiung before the march.

Independence-leaning President Chen Shui-bian said Taiwan had "every right to be a full UN member, standing on equal footing with other member states".

The opposition Kuomintang (KMT) also favours a referendum on joining the UN, but under the island's official name Republic of China.

The KMT held a separate rally for the central city of Taichung attended by its presidential candidate Ma Ying-jeou which attracted an estimated 50,000 people.

The UN switched it recognition from Taiwan to mainland China in 1971.

China's President Hu Jintao has warned that the plan could result in a "possibly dangerous period" for the region.

The United States has also warned that the move is unnecessarily provocative and could heighten tensions in the region.

Most UN members have diplomatic ties with China and would not want to anger Beijing by backing Taiwan's UN application.

[K. A. Pital]

Why do it when they have normal relations with the world already? Why risk worsening relations with the PRC, when trade is boosting? That's stupid.

[Thanas]

Should they be allowed to join the UN? Absolutely.
Will China block/veto such a motion? Sure thing.
So there is not much the Taiwanese can do after all.

[Lonestar]

Should they be allowed to join the UN? Absolutely.
Will China block/veto such a motion? Sure thing.
So there is not much the Taiwanese can do after all.

There isn't much they can do about getting into the UN. Now the Security Council is a different matter, IIRC.

[Sidewinder]

Should they be allowed to join the UN? Absolutely.
Will China block/veto such a motion? Sure thing.
So there is not much the Taiwanese can do after all.

There isn't much they can do about getting into the UN. Now the Security Council is a different matter, IIRC.

How so?

[Qwerty 42]

^China's has veto power on the security council, not the General Assembly.

[Sidewinder]

Why do it when they have normal relations with the world already? Why risk worsening relations with the PRC, when trade is boosting? That's stupid.

Taiwan's current president, Chen Shui-bian, advocates Taiwan independence. The man is also an idiot who makes George W. Bush look like Franklin D. Roosevelt.

[K. A. Pital]

Taiwan's current president, Chen Shui-bian, advocates Taiwan independence. The man is also an idiot who makes George W. Bush look like Franklin D. Roosevelt.

*upon reading the article*
Yeah. That's a real tough leader. I mean, you could replace George W. Bush with him and... *thinks again* A 5.8% approval? Why the fuck is this man still in power...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Taiwan's current president, Chen Shui-bian, advocates Taiwan independence. The man is also an idiot who makes George W. Bush look like Franklin D. Roosevelt.

*upon reading the article*
Yeah. That's a real tough leader. I mean, you could replace George W. Bush with him and... *thinks again* A 5.8% approval? Why the fuck is this man still in power...

Because the legislature is currently split evenly between the KMT and the DPP.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Why do it when they have normal relations with the world already? Why risk worsening relations with the PRC, when trade is boosting? That's stupid.

It's the perfect time to. 2008 Olympics, anyone?

Taiwan's current president, Chen Shui-bian, advocates Taiwan independence. The man is also an idiot who makes George W. Bush look like Franklin D. Roosevelt.

*upon reading the article*
Yeah. That's a real tough leader. I mean, you could replace George W. Bush with him and... *thinks again* A 5.8% approval? Why the fuck is this man still in power...

He was reelected because he faked an assassination on himself and the vice president. Bush ain't got nothing on his game.

[Mange]

He was reelected because he faked an assassination on himself and the vice president. Bush ain't got nothing on his game.

Do you have any evidence to back that up or are you talking from your rear end?

[darthbob88]

He was reelected because he faked an assassination on himself and the vice president. Bush ain't got nothing on his game.

Do you have any evidence to back that up or are you talking from your rear end?

According to Wikipedia, there are some doubts about whether or not the "assassination attempt" was entirely legitimate. Yeah, it's wikipedia, but it's the best source I can find.

[Battlehymn Republic]

I don't know enough of the details to make an educated judgment either way. However, the concept that he faked getting shot just so he could be reelected is the most ridiculously corrupt and badass thing ever.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

He was reelected because he faked an assassination on himself and the vice president. Bush ain't got nothing on his game.

Do you have any evidence to back that up or are you talking from your rear end?

That case was weird. The assailant later apparently committed suicide and for a case like this, there wasn't much of an official inquiry or anything.

It just faded from public memory.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Taiwan's current president, Chen Shui-bian, advocates Taiwan independence.

Even Ma Yingjeou and the KMT is now advocating this. I have no idea of the benefits in joining the UN though, so I can't comment much on this. My best guess is that people probably think that Taiwan's diplomatic relationships would improve if we're in the UN.

Yeah. That's a real tough leader. I mean, you could replace George W. Bush with him and... *thinks again* A 5.8% approval? Why the fuck is this man still in power...

There were like, 2 or 3 campaigns to remove him. All failed at the initial step in the Congress. The KMT may have a higher headcount in theTaiwanese Legislative Yuan, but not absolute dominance. The irony is, these hard-to-work deposing laws were made by the KMT to ensure their leadership.

According to Wikipedia, there are some doubts about whether or not the "assassination attempt" was entirely legitimate. Yeah, it's wikipedia, but it's the best source I can find.

Frankly speaking the Pan-Blue's moronity to respond/investigate into this incident is one of the reasons why I will not vote for them in 2008 (plus Ma Yingjeou is a pussy). After the 2004 election the Pan-Blue became a bunch of mere whiners with a lot of stupid shit. As the wiki article the only reasonable thing they did was inviting American forensic experts to investigate the incident, however, they couldn't find sufficient proof that the incident was faked. The Pan-Blues then had the stupid guts to question Dr. Lee's (One of the experts, an overseas Taiwanese) report. His political stance is Pan-Blue for fucks sake.

A side note: so far not even a probable working hypothesis on faking the wound was formed. Standard bullet/gun or not, seems to me it requires a shitload of luck to do it safely.

It just faded from public memory.

Taiwanese Politics 101: As long as you don't get into jail, and you have a thick face, any fuckups will fade from public notice. That's how Chen survived last year's campaign. (Though I admit, the campaign was typical Pan-Blue stupid, by October I myself turned from sympathetic into considering them annoying whiners.)

[Stuart Mackey]

Why do it when they have normal relations with the world already? Why risk worsening relations with the PRC, when trade is boosting? That's stupid.

Pride and dignity or that new fangled concept of self determination? I fail to see why they should be sacrificed for the sake of trade.

And no, they don't have normal relations with the rest of the world because, bar a few island nations, they are not reconised as a nation.

[K. A. Pital]

Pride and dignity or that new fangled concept of self determination?

Given it's a very divisive issue among the Taiwanese themselves, I see no reason to push for it now.

I mean, in a generation or two Taiwan would probably merge with China like Hong Kong and Macao did, on similar terms.

[Stuart Mackey]

Pride and dignity or that new fangled concept of self determination?

Given it's a very divisive issue among the Taiwanese themselves, I see no reason to push for it now.

Well they obviously do, even if you don't

I mean, in a generation or two Taiwan would probably merge with China like Hong Kong and Macao did, on similar terms.

Yeah? Can you PM me the winning numbers for lotto?

[Battlehymn Republic]

More like China will merge with Taiwan.

As for the timing, I don't know why exactly this moment, but the 2008 Olympics forcing the PRC to play nice- that's probably a factor.

[Kane Starkiller]

I mean, in a generation or two Taiwan would probably merge with China like Hong Kong and Macao did, on similar terms.

How do you figure that? Most of young people in Taiwan consider themselves Taiwanese rather than Chinese from what I've heard while it's the elders that still retain hope and will for reunification. After two more generations it seems to me that majority of Taiwan's population won't consider themselves Chinese anymore.

[septesix]

You got the voting options wrong.

There should be 3 choice.

DO Not Join (China)
Join (DDP)
Rejoin (KMT)

DOn't ask what the difference between join and rejoin. It's just all stupid politics.

[Sidewinder]

I mean, in a generation or two Taiwan would probably merge with China like Hong Kong and Macao did, on similar terms.

I also hope for a peaceful reunification, but the way Taiwanese politics is going now, things will get worse before they get better.

[K. A. Pital]

I'm not a fan of nationalism, to put it mildly. Of course, it's their choice. I'm not really for or against that, but the pragmatic and rationalist in me speaks against it. Why screw important economic relations for some abstract shit? Taiwan's economy has been okay without it, so I don't really see a point.

However, I can give many points where fervent nationalism and separatism has fucked up entier national economies, sometimes for good. Former Soviet republics of Georgia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc., to name just one of those.

[septesix]

I mean, in a generation or two Taiwan would probably merge with China like Hong Kong and Macao did, on similar terms.

I also hope for a peaceful reunification, but the way Taiwanese politics is going now, things will get worse before they get better.

No one in their right mind in taiwan will hope for a re-unification, peaceful or not. Taiwan has simply evolved into a political entity that has goals that are very different and at odds with the centeral government.

The REASONABLE thing to do is a EU-like entity that allows the trades to flow through freely while still allow each government to work at their goals. We can use economical cooperation just every one else would.

What we don't need is a political unifcation that mades no sense except to pampers the nationalisitic feeling CCP is stroking up to maintain their own grip of power.

BTW, CCP had the incredible insight a few years ago that , somehow, "Hong Kong is not ready for democracy"... This statement clearly shows that no one who treasure their hard-won freedom and democracy in taiwan will ever allow a re-unification with the current CCP-China

[K. A. Pital]

The REASONABLE thing to do is a EU-like entity that allows the trades to flow through freely while still allow each government to work at their goals. We can use economical cooperation just every one else would.

So, why not do it and call it a ROC-PRC union? I doubt current China leaders would fervently oppose a unification in an overstate entity like EU. After all, wouldn't that boost their prestige too?