40K fleet numbers analysis thread

[Connor MacLeod]

I believe it runs, "There may be millions of necrons in stasis, but there are billions of men ready to stand against them" or something. That, too, shall be posted tomorrow.

"With the Emperor's Guidance we will prevail, there may be millions, or tens of millions of Necrons in stasis waiting to emerge, but there are billions of Humans ready to destro them, and destroy them we will."

Inquisitor Arrian.

Of course, the only characters in the book who're likely to have actual knowledge of how many necrons there are the C'tan.

And in typical game fluff fashion, they tend to dramatically underestimate the numbers of Guardsmen.

I'd guess its more useful.reaosnable as a "viable numbers" ratio: The Inquisitor thinks that they can still take the Necrons at 100:1 or :1000:1 numerical superiority in their favor. (Of course, ,at 10:1 or worse that hints that the Imperium might well be fucked.)

And there is the small fact the Tyranids tend to avoid Necron Space like the plague...

[NecronLord]

Please do. IIRC in Caves of Ice, however, that was larrgely a conjecture on Cain's part. He did not literally go through and count how many Necrons there were in the tomb, and he was only in/saw one part of it (which was what he based his estimate on.)

He did not. On the other hand, Adept Lakius did...

'You just left him outside!' Lakius's angry words rang hollow even to him. The young rune priest was dead and recriminations wouldnot bring him back. They were trapped at the centre of the monolith now, the heart of the ancient structure. The Mechanicus-trained academic in him was already studying the chamber, too awed by the storehouse of alien archaeotech to give thought to the cost already incurred. The rows of man-high blocks seemed familiar, something about them... understanding blossomed with a now-familiar tang of fear.

'These are cryo-stasis machines,' he whispered. Metriculation memo-chips in his optic viewer calmly extrapolated that the chamber held over a million of them.

'It's what I brought you to see. They resemble the cryo-crypt of the Assassinorum vessel you arrived in, do they not? The best is at the centre, these are just... servants. Come and we may look upon a sight no living thing has seen in six hundred million years.'

Egal moved off down the slope and Lakius numbly followed. They passed block after block, each glittering with a rime of ancient frost. The floor got steeper until they had to crawl on hands and knees, gripping the blocks to lower themselves down to a flat circular section dominated by an immense stasis crypt. It was a sarcophagus in form, its top moulded into a representation of what lay within. Lakius expected to see a mask of death like the machine warriors, but instead found vivid life rendered in polished metal, beautiful but inhuman and cruel. Rows of sigils around the fid shone with an inner light, and it felt warm to the touch.

Isn't there implication that the Necrons are active on Mars, though? The "visitation" by some of their ships? And IIRC I vaguely recall Abbadon having some daemon-provided glimpse/vision suggesting that as well.

Magos Prime Reston Egal, mentioned above, the Deciever, is also active on Mars. The ships that attacked Mars appear not to been connected with him, given that he reccommended the entire site be flooded with ferrocrete and fusion bombed. On the other hand, if they were his ships, then perhaps he knew that the Adeptus Mechanicus heirarchy would overrule him on the matter...

I did remember Nightbringer, I just wasn't sure if I considered him "Active" since he was sucking energy from a dead star to bolster himself (and I don't remember any mention of him awakening his forces yet.)

Certainly more active than the other two. Abaddon sees the Void Dragon being fed in preparation for its awakening, but beyond that, both the Outsider (who I assume was the C'tan on the world destroyed in Last Stand of the Firebrands, near to awakening) and the Void Dragon are still dormant.

Either that or the Deceiver is manipulating the AdMech.

That would be difficult, assuming he's telling the truth in Deus Ex Mechanicus, which of course, he may not be, it would appear he awoke around M35 or M37. It certainly seems unlikely that he's been around long enough to influence the events of the Horus Heresy, though anything is possible...

I'd bet on the Void Dragon though (IIRC he was more mechanical than others.) Though IIRC there was one AdMech guy who went insane from a "visit" tot he Outsider too... so we can't count him out quite...

More specifically, he got a visit to the 'Lord of Insanity' who might be the Outsider, or the Deciever, who supposedly enjoys sending his victims mad. "Delights in breaking their [mortals'] minds and spirits before consuming their essence." Adept Cortsewain was supposedly taken to the domain of the Lord of Insanity from Cthelmax, a place where Cypher fought a being made of gold (thus, presumably the Deceiver, though any of them could appear that way if they pleased) and lost his phase knife.

Wasn't there something about the AdMech stamping out new Necrons (or at least some sect of them, anywys.) for one of the C'tan?

Not as such. The Deciever (one would assume) adapted an ad-mech facility to do so, until it was bombarded into rubble.

The Skopios Incident

So aorund eight or nine "visits" at least, over a century or so. The only question is - how many people do they harvest in a given "visit?"

Unknown. I'll do some numbers and post them.

It does occur to me if they're "recruiting" again they probably have some fairly significant depletion. The fact that they still want to "wall off" the Warp from realspace is something of an indicator as well (even now they can't quite win through sheer force of arms, at least not presently.)

They're only recruiting pariahs. There's no evidence of them converting anyone else into necrons.

They probably don't need huge fleets yet (somethign that would be hard to hide.)

It wouldn't be that hard to hide if you weren't doign anything with them. Just park them in orbit over a tomb world. One interesting thing, in a sort of Shadow Lite fashion, is a seeming preference for buried ships, on Angelis and in Goto's awful book. Potentially they may have some numbers that are simply concealed.

If they are building ships, the appaent emphasis on smaller craft (cruisers and escrots) would make sense, since they are better long range striking and skirmishing vesses - ideal for the sorts of tactics they seem to be currently employing (and probably alot cheaper/easier to build.)

Mm. I've seen nothing to suggest that they're building new ships at the moment.

You mean that Avatar of Khorne in Storm of Iron? I'm guessing this is in "Dead Sky, Black Sun", isn't it?

The stuff about it having despoiled entire galaxies and universes is in there, yes.

[NecronLord]

Sites of rumoured necron activity in the galaxy (there's a version in the Necron codex, that seems less populated, and is in any case, harder to read)...

Dead Worlds featuring Necrontyr structures -- 16
Sightings of Necrons pre 39th Millennium -- 9
Sightings of Necrons 39th - 40th Millenium -- 26
Sightings of Necrons 41st Milleninium -- 19

So, that seems to be about 15 raids per millennium, over the last three, getting more numerous (or better reported).

[Teleros]

So, that seems to be about 15 raids per millennium, over the last three, getting more numerous (or better reported).

More likely "better reported", if Amberley Vail's savant is anything to go by:

"A two hundred and seventy-three per cent increase in probably Necron contact over the last century," he said. "Only twenty-eight per cent fully confirmed, however." That would be because the majority of contacts left no survivors, of course."

[Connor MacLeod]

He did not. On the other hand, Adept Lakius did...

>snip quote for brevity<

Neat, although "million" could be interpreted as "hundreds of thousands" too I suppose.

Magos Prime Reston Egal, mentioned above, the Deciever, is also active on Mars. The ships that attacked Mars appear not to been connected with him, given that he reccommended the entire site be flooded with ferrocrete and fusion bombed. On the other hand, if they were his ships, then perhaps he knew that the Adeptus Mechanicus heirarchy would overrule him on the matter...

Some other C'tan either spying on/interfering with the Deceiver, or perhaps trying to ally with him then? I dunno if I could see a conceivable benefit in pretending they were HIS because it would just draw attention to him.

Certainly more active than the other two. Abaddon sees the Void Dragon being fed in preparation for its awakening, but beyond that, both the Outsider (who I assume was the C'tan on the world destroyed in Last Stand of the Firebrands, near to awakening) and the Void Dragon are still dormant.

I thought hte Outsider was on that big ass Dyson Sphere? And that was feeding the Void Dragon on Mars? Maybe I misremembered.

]That would be difficult, assuming he's telling the truth in Deus Ex Mechanicus, which of course, he may not be, it would appear he awoke around M35 or M37. It certainly seems unlikely that he's been around long enough to influence the events of the Horus Heresy, though anything is possible..

I didn't mean he'd been around THAT long. I meant that maybe he insinuated himself into the hierarchy and began manipulating it behind the scenes towards his own end, masking his own dickery within the dickery the Admech itself inflicts on humanity. It is kinda his MO, isn't it?

More specifically, he got a visit to the 'Lord of Insanity' who might be the Outsider, or the Deciever, who supposedly enjoys sending his victims mad. "Delights in breaking their [mortals'] minds and spirits before consuming their essence." Adept Cortsewain was supposedly taken to the domain of the Lord of Insanity from Cthelmax, a place where Cypher fought a being made of gold (thus, presumably the Deceiver, though any of them could appear that way if they pleased) and lost his phase knife.

I see.

Cypher? Isn't he the Fallen Dark Angel?

Not as such. The Deciever (one would assume) adapted an ad-mech facility to do so, until it was bombarded into rubble.

That's odd. That would kinda suggest that either the Necrons lack the infrastructure to make their own in any great numbers, or they somehow lost and haven't found them yet. (OR, at least, the Deceiver hasn't.) That would probably also kill the notion they could build starships, I suppose.

On the other hand, that's the only *known* such facility...

The Skopios Incident

That has a number of intersting details. especially the "shattering an asteroid with at least some atmosphere" (that suggests its larger than the moon).

Unknown. I'll do some numbers and post them.

Do we know how many people they take per "visit?"

They're only recruiting pariahs. There's no evidence of them converting anyone else into necrons.

Then who was the Deceiver instilling into the Necrons he built on Skopios?

I'd imagine the bulk of those they "harvest" are ultimately food for the C'tan, but some aside fomr pariahs probably end up recruited or taken. They're supply of Necrons isn't infinite.

It wouldn't be that hard to hide if you weren't doign anything with them. Just park them in orbit over a tomb world. One interesting thing, in a sort of Shadow Lite fashion, is a seeming preference for buried ships, on Angelis and in Goto's awful book. Potentially they may have some numbers that are simply concealed.

That could be. Although if they're "buried" they're either forces from "dead" C'tan who just haven't been found (although if any other than the handful or so known to have survived had hidden troops.. where'd they go after?) Or they just forgot or lost them.

Of course given Skopios like I said, they probably lack alot of the infrastructure they used to have, so whether or not they can build ships or have to find them is probably a moot point. Burying them makes more sense than leaving them in orbit around a death world, however. LEaving ships in orbit is a dead giveaway to anyone whose seen a Necron ship as to where they might be hiding.

Then agian didn't the Nightbringer hide his ship ins ome other dimension (or did someone else do that to him?)

Mm. I've seen nothing to suggest that they're building new ships at the moment.

I suppose not, if they don't even have their own facilities for building Necron warriors...

The stuff about it having despoiled entire galaxies and universes is in there, yes.

Haven't read that far yet, though I ermember it from "Storm of Iron" (which I actually liked.)

Of course, , these are Daemonic entities, they can hardly be called the most objective and unbiased (or honest) individuals, especially when talking to "lesser" beings.

[Cykeisme]

Is the upper limit on Necron troops equal to the population of the Necrontyr race at the time of its demise/conversion?
Or do they still have the ability to reproduce in some manner?

Do those mechanical warriors being built in the Skopios Incident contain Necrontyr identities?


Anyway, as I understand, even if unable to reproduce, they never truly die.. even when defeated in battle, the dormant "corpses" all teleport away mysteriously.
Considering their Necrodermis forms are almost indestructible beyond their ability to regenerate, that pretty much keeps their permanent losses to casualties down to almost nil.

[Imperial Overlord]

Is the upper limit on Necron troops equal to the population of the Necrontyr race at the time of its demise/conversion?
Or do they still have the ability to reproduce in some manner?

They can produce new bodies and the C'tan had transfer copies of Necron intelligence into the new bodies. So yes, their numbers can increase. They also have a method of converting Pariahs into a new kind of Necron.

[NecronLord]

It's also possible that one necron squad equals one necrontyr mind. I seem to recall WD suggesting that some inquisitors saw resemblance in necron warrior and genestealer brood telepathy behaviour.

I'll have to see if I can find that reference later today.

[Cykeisme]

It's difficult to permanently destroy them under battlefield conditions (even disabled Necrons phase out at the end), and they can be produced in a factory.

How does any other force stand a chance?
If they set up a decent industrial base, they'd be the most numerous force in the galaxy.. like the Separatist battle droid armies, even.


There has to be some limiting factor on the copying process or something, otherwise even without the technological superiority they would be undefeatable.

Perhaps an entire squad may be the same guy's mind copied over a bunch of bodies, and/or have a group mind, but there's a limit to the number of bodies each mind can inhabit?

If physical destruction of the bodies doesn't eliminate the minds (virtual immortality, maybe even sort of nBSG Cylon-like), that would at least tie the maximum number of "old" Necron warriors (at any given time) to a multiple of the Necrontyr population. By "old" I mean not including Pariah Necrons and such.

Thoughts?

[Connor MacLeod]

It's also possible that one necron squad equals one necrontyr mind. I seem to recall WD suggesting that some inquisitors saw resemblance in necron warrior and genestealer brood telepathy behaviour.

I'll have to see if I can find that reference later today.

The question is where the "mind" controlling them is/operates from, if that is true. (is it the "leader" of a Necron squad, or are they all remotely controlled like drones?)

[Connor MacLeod]

It's difficult to permanently destroy them under battlefield conditions (even disabled Necrons phase out at the end), and they can be produced in a factory.

Well one would presume not really. Any sort of warp weapon (vortex grenade, missile, etc.) ought to do it. Antimatter probably could as well (at least physically destroy the shell - the Imperium has such weapons.) If they had conversion beam weapons still they could employ those.

How does any other force stand a chance?
If they set up a decent industrial base, they'd be the most numerous force in the galaxy.. like the Separatist battle droid armies, even.

In their own way, Necrons rely just as much on infrastructure and resources as everyone else. Without their tomb worlds or teleporters, their "durability" or rather, their repairability, takes a huge hit (as does their ability to escape.) And despite what Rabid Fivers think, one cannot simply create massively powerful industry (like what, say, the Galactic Empire hs, or even a fraction of it) and keep it totally hidden from everyone else. (Somethign will give it away, and then it becomes a target.)

There has to be some limiting factor on the copying process or something, otherwise even without the technological superiority they would be undefeatable.

An obvious limitation is probably just how many necrons a "controlling" presence can maintain (which I would geuss would be roughly a "squad" - think of it in terms of psychic bandwidth, or whatever equivalent the Necrons use.

Perhaps an entire squad may be the same guy's mind copied over a bunch of bodies, and/or have a group mind, but there's a limit to the number of bodies each mind can inhabit?

I'd think of it as a single mind controlling individual troopers as if they were parts of his/her/its body. Beyond some point, coordination becomes difficult. Over time, practice migth allow for some increases, but probably not much.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm moving this one back to the original thread

Adept Cortsewain rants that the "Lord of Insanity" is its master. People (including myself in the past) have interpreted that to be the Outsider, but that'd mean (even disgarding Goto) we've a spare C'tan in White Dwarf. It's now my opinion that this 'Lord of Insanity' might be the Deciever, who's supposed, after all, to enjoy turning his victims (such as Corteswain) insane. Of course, it's all conjecture, anyway. Until the Dyson Sphere plot's elaborated on, it could be anything... An especially shiny Necron Lord,
maybe.

I see, although the number of C'tan seems to flucutate as much as the numbers of Space Marines

Maybe its the resting place of the Star Child!

That's the fellow. May be a good guy. May not be. I have the suspision we might find out in the next Heresy book.

Wasn't he the cloaked figure dual-wielding pistols in various caseS (most notably/recently I remember during the Eye of Terror campaign?) I also vaguely seem to remember him allying with Abbadon.

My impression is that maybe he's a good guy (particularily based on Angels of Darkness) and his supposed "pilgrammage" to Terra (doesn't he have El'jonson's sword still?), but his activities with Chaos are hard to explain I suppose (unless he's perhaps the reason Abbadon fucks up so much.. )

It's worth noting that when that story was written, the C'tan concept was under development. It probably wasn't imagined that there were only four of them at the time, but rather, that particular 'necron master' had only what he'd been found with.

In any case, it's not as if the C'tan need much logical reason to do anything. 'Because it's fun' works for them just fine.

True, although there's only a point to which that sort of attitude can compromise efficiency, at least not without becoming moronic. Then again, I'm sure there have been some fairly moronic C'tan (like all those the Deceiver fucked over, nevermind the Laughing God..)

Nope. And I'd guess some of those were victories, too.

Victories for the Necrons or for the Imperium?

Who knows. Presumably there's an archive somewhere - they probably originally converted more than the 'millions' that seem to be active now, after all. Perhaps necrons can flit between bodies, like "hot-desking."

Perhaps. Although why would the C'tan refrain from recruiting minions from other races? It doesn't seem in their nature to keep the whole "eternal life" thing to the Necrons themselves. And if they can convert Pariahs, the tech must exist in some form.

And some of the C'tan (like the Deceiver) do like worshipping people (so long as they do what he wants, else he wipes them out like in the Codex) -
And I can't believe the extra numbers wouldn't be welcome.

The only thing I can think of again comes to infrastructure-based limitations. The Deceiver cannot support increased numbers, or cannot do so without exposing himself unduly (perhaps to the Eldar, the Imperium, or someone else.) - at least not without the Warding being completed first.

But I don't see why their minds necesserily have to die with them.

That's true. The mind/soul/essence and the body seem to be separate things in 40K, and the C'tan only feed on the life energies (bio-electricity I guess.) the soul/mind part probably can still exist independently of that. Once the mind is removed, ,teh body isn't useful for anything aside from food.

The C'tan haven't called up everything they can yet. They're not out to kill everyone (can't enslave the dead. Unless you're nurgle...), after all, or even topple the Imperium. Their first priority appears to be chaos, followed by the eldar...

Is Chaos fighting back? I can't see the Chaos Gods not being aware of the Necrons or their plans. Especially not after the last Black Crusade.

But even then, why wouldn't they call up their forces? I don't see there being any logical reason to keep them in hiding if they know about them (more ships/troops = more chaos, ,or at least enablign them to hunt down/wipe out the Eldar.)

It was banished to the warp during a battle against a fleet of young races the Deciever had given its location to.

That would make it rather hard to get access to.

That also leads to a curious question. Does that make the Nightbrtringer's ship warp-capable? (if it could come back from the Warp, it had to have some means of opening a way back.) And also it implies the craft might have been shielded against Daemonic influence/possession (like a gellar field.)

Storm of Iron was quite good, on the whole, but the whole 'vanish through a tear in space' made me dislike it...

I simply interpreted that as being some sort of warp portal/gate, something like the webway. Don't the Eldar have webway that can transporrt individuals between planets, a fter all?

[Ford Prefect]

Neat, although "million" could be interpreted as "hundreds of thousands" too I suppose.

Sure, you could. At least ten hundreds of thousands.

Cypher? Isn't he the Fallen Dark Angel?

Indeed. He'd have been dead too if he hadn't been snatched up by the Ruinous Powers just before Memphet-ran ruined his shit.

Then agian didn't the Nightbringer hide his ship ins ome other dimension (or did someone else do that to him?)

I'm pretty sure it was more an accident than anything else. And I'm also pretty sure it ended up in the Warp, or quite close to it.

[Teleros]

but his activities with Chaos are hard to explain I suppose (unless he's perhaps the reason Abbadon fucks up so much.. )

The polar opposite of Cain & Jurgen perhaps ?

Is Chaos fighting back? I can't see the Chaos Gods not being aware of the Necrons or their plans. Especially not after the last Black Crusade.

Heavy / clever use of Pariahs might block out many of their attempts to gather intelligence from the Warp.

I'm pretty sure it was more an accident than anything else. And I'm also pretty sure it ended up in the Warp, or quite close to it.

That's the impression I got from reading it too.

[NecronLord]

Wasn't he the cloaked figure dual-wielding pistols in various caseS (most notably/recently I remember during the Eye of Terror campaign?) I also vaguely seem to remember him allying with Abbadon.

Yes. He was preaching something. I forget what...

My impression is that maybe he's a good guy (particularily based on Angels of Darkness) and his supposed "pilgrammage" to Terra (doesn't he have El'jonson's sword still?), but his activities with Chaos are hard to explain I suppose (unless he's perhaps the reason Abbadon fucks up so much.. )

I think the idea's that most of the renegades who follow him are outraged at the poor conditions in the imperium, rather than chaos worshippers. There was one story of him helping miners revolt and overthrow exploitative rulers or something. This isn't a strong point of my knowledge.

True, although there's only a point to which that sort of attitude can compromise efficiency, at least not without becoming moronic. Then again, I'm sure there have been some fairly moronic C'tan (like all those the Deceiver fucked over, nevermind the Laughing God..)

Remember, the C'tan don't consider it war. As far as they're concerned, they're fighting animals. The Pete Haines' quote about them not using war-equipment because that would require them to feel threatened springs to mind.

And it's not an entirely unjustified idea. As far as we know, now, there is absolutely nothing in the galaxy that can kill them.

Victories for the Necrons or for the Imperium?

For the Imperium.

Perhaps. Although why would the C'tan refrain from recruiting minions from other races?

Why would they need to? With the exception of Pariahs, most other races have no reason to make them bother...

It doesn't seem in their nature to keep the whole "eternal life" thing to the Necrons themselves. And if they can convert Pariahs, the tech must exist in some form.

Certainly. Though one wonders if there's an organic brain in a pariah, or wafers or crystal, or something more exotic.

And some of the C'tan (like the Deceiver) do like worshipping people (so long as they do what he wants, else he wipes them out like in the Codex) -
And I can't believe the extra numbers wouldn't be welcome.

Well, remember, necrons aren't very amusing worshippers. On the other hand, living humans' 'racial fear and superstition is most gratifying.'

The only thing I can think of again comes to infrastructure-based limitations. The Deceiver cannot support increased numbers, or cannot do so without exposing himself unduly (perhaps to the Eldar, the Imperium, or someone else.) - at least not without the Warding being completed first.

According to Amberly's comments in Caves of Ice, I think, in M42 the Necrons get much higher profile. Though they may not have more resources in that time, it would seem to suggest they're not that worried about being observed. Of course, some of these things have no answers. I asked Gav Thorpe about the 'necron brood telepathy' thing the other day, and he essentially said that they had no plans to ever specify how it works on such a level.

Is Chaos fighting back? I can't see the Chaos Gods not being aware of the Necrons or their plans. Especially not after the last Black Crusade.

Chaos forces and gods may not be able to properly concieve of the threat, which is supposedly going to take millennia. And even if they can, there's not much they can do, aside from possibly getting their hands on necron gear involved (as in Dark Apostle, in fact) as they can't really manifest themselves in too well in warded areas.

They've certainly tried doing things about Cadia...

That would make it rather hard to get access to.

There's a beacon to summon it back, which seemed to be taking effect within minutes of its owner's reawakening in Nightbringer.

That also leads to a curious question. Does that make the Nightbrtringer's ship warp-capable? (if it could come back from the Warp, it had to have some means of opening a way back.) And also it implies the craft might have been shielded against Daemonic influence/possession (like a gellar field.)

Quite so. It wouldn't be terribly unlikely for necron ships to have such devices, of course; they are just objects, and they could easily copy them off someone else's starships. While the navigation isn't terribly easy, it's not terribly hard either; especially as we've seen that when you have negligable prescence in the warp, as the Tau do, it supposedly 'rejects' you.

I simply interpreted that as being some sort of warp portal/gate, something like the webway. Don't the Eldar have webway that can transporrt individuals between planets, a fter all?

It wasn't that. It was the 'universes and galaxies' that she supposedly destroyed. If Khorne commands so much power and influence, why doesn't he just drop it on the Emperor's forces?

[Connor MacLeod]

I think the idea's that most of the renegades who follow him are outraged at the poor conditions in the imperium, rather than chaos worshippers. There was one story of him helping miners revolt and overthrow exploitative rulers or something. This isn't a strong point of my knowledge.

I'm vaguely remembered of his (off screen) portrayal in Angels of Darkness. He opposed the virus bombing (well effectively that) of the populacee of the planet the Dark Angels were garrisoned on.

Remember, the C'tan don't consider it war. As far as they're concerned, they're fighting animals. The Pete Haines' quote about them not using war-equipment because that would require them to feel threatened springs to mind.

Kind of, but not viewing it as a war is kind of, I dunno.. arrogant. I mean, it makes sense after a fashion, but it still represents something of a drawback/error on their part.

And it's not an entirely unjustified idea. As far as we know, now, there is absolutely nothing in the galaxy that can kill them.

Kill? Probably not. But what about their physical bodies? What if they are destroyed? I doubt they can do as much harm in their original states as they can as they are presently.

And didn't that Necron get Exterimatus'ed out of existence (supposedly?)

Why would they need to? With the exception of Pariahs, most other races have no reason to make them bother...

They're going to have to fight at some point, aren't they? Especially if the Great Warding doesn't work (Either it gets overloaded, or they don't complete it.)

And we know the Imperium (at least) consider them a threat. Which means at some point (when they can find time, at least) they'll make an effort at wiping them out. The Deceiver, at least, ought to be aware of this.

Certainly. Though one wonders if there's an organic brain in a pariah, or wafers or crystal, or something more exotic.

I'd say something other than a brain. As I recall melta wweapons destrroy them pretty thoroughly (as do other weapons) yet they can reform themselves bakc to normal with time. No squishy organic brain will survive that.

Then again, there are pariahs, which probably HAVE to have some squishy organic bits in them for the pariah thingy to work. Maybe its only some Necrons that have organic bits, and others are the "exotic" duplicates or some such.

Well, remember, necrons aren't very amusing worshippers. On the other hand, living humans' 'racial fear and superstition is most gratifying.

I suppose. But again, that doesn't seem to be a good reason for not building up forces.

]According to Amberly's comments in Caves of Ice, I think, in M42 the Necrons get much higher profile. Though they may not have more resources in that time, it would seem to suggest they're not that worried about being observed. Of course, some of these things have no answers.

Well, yet. I'd just wonder why they wouldn't care unless they WERE more militarily stronger. The Imperium has already demonstrated they'll nuke any perceived threat out of existence./ And they hae (supposedly) done this to a Necron at least once already.

I asked Gav Thorpe about the 'necron brood telepathy' thing the other day, and he essentially said that they had no plans to ever specify how it works on such a level.

Ah, no surprise. I don't think the actual how it works is as important as "what its used for" - its probably machine based though (FTL signla, perhaps. Or maybe it operates through some variation on their warp nexi)

Chaos forces and gods may not be able to properly concieve of the threat, which is supposedly going to take millennia. And even if they can, there's not much they can do, aside from possibly getting their hands on necron gear involved (as in Dark Apostle, in fact) as they can't really manifest themselves in too well in warded areas.

Well I wouldn't think so, but the threat of being cut off from realspace ought to be a motivation to get Chaos on the Necron's ass, so to speak, rather than fucking around with the Imperium.

Hell, I'd have thought the Emperor and/or the Eldar would try to work out some way to get Chaos and the Necrons to go at one another, since the CG and the C'Tan seem to be naturally mutually exlcusive. Having them fight each other would seem to benefit the Imperium/Eldar greatly.

They've certainly tried doing things about Cadia...

True. Maybe the CG think they can just overpower the Warding even if it does get built. We do know that the Pylons and Pariahs can be burnt out if the warp "power" is strong/prolonged enough....

There's a beacon to summon it back, which seemed to be taking effect within minutes of its owner's reawakening in Nightbringer.

I remember. But now that I think about it, its interesting how the beacon might have worked. That sort of signal implies the Necrons have an ability to transmit from realspace to warp. How they do it would have interesting implications in temrs of sensors/comms...

Quite so. It wouldn't be terribly unlikely for necron ships to have such devices, of course; they are just objects, and they could easily copy them off someone else's starships. While the navigation isn't terribly easy, it's not terribly hard either; especially as we've seen that when you have negligable prescence in the warp, as the Tau do, it supposedly 'rejects' you.

Given space hulks and ghost/daemon ships, having an inert object getting dumped into the warp doesn't seem to be the problem. Keeping it uninfested (or having it in the warp with a C'tan in it) may be a different story. (Again something like a Gellar field probably is required.)

It wasn't that. It was the 'universes and galaxies' that she supposedly destroyed. If Khorne commands so much power and influence, why doesn't he just drop it on the Emperor's forces?

I must not have paid attention to that part. Then again, there supposedly ARE other galaxies out there, aren't there? If the Orks, Tyranids, a nd Necrons are running around in other galaxies, I don't see why Chaos (in theory) couldn't be. So maybe they do span more than one galaxy/universe.

I would also point out that HOW those galaxies/univereses were destroyed isn't specified either - there's no reason to assume he/she is doing it singlehandedly. Or, as another possibility, ,that he/she is confusing Khorne with herself, this is, IIRC the "Avatar of Khorne", after all.

[Teleros]

Kill? Probably not. But what about their physical bodies? What if they are destroyed? I doubt they can do as much harm in their original states as they can as they are presently.

I dunno... when Khaine destroyed the Nightbringer's body, the latter was so pissed off he stopped all Eldar from ever reincarnated as phoenixes ever again. Sounds pretty nasty to me...

[Connor MacLeod]

I haven't touched this thread in months, ,but I'm back with more information, so I don't consider this necromancy. No, I havent yet gotten around to the TAu or Chaos or the others yet. I may be able to at a later point. But I do have revisions to the Imperium's numbers and whatnot, given that I've read some of the Space Wolf novels and also gotten a peek at Dark heresy. The additions are outlined below:

First, of course, the relevant quotes:

Ragnar's Claw, page 330

It occurred to him that quite soon he might feel the same way about Fenris. It was only one world but there were mil­lions of such worlds in the Imperium, separated by thousands of light years of distance. He had heard it said that if a man could visit one new world in the galaxy every day of his life, he would not have visited a thousandth of the inhabited worlds by the time he died.

Assuming "every day of his life" means 70 or 80 years, this works out to between 25,000 and 30,000 days, which in turn is 1/1000th of 25 to 30 million inhabited worlds, minimum. Note that "life" can vary, since on lower tech worlds lifespans can be lower, whereas with life extension technologies life can life up to 100+ years. Possibly even 200 or 300 years.

If the lifespan were a mere 30-40 years, the calc would be roughly half of what I said above (12-15 million worlds). If we get to 120 years (which is an age given for a priest in the Sisters of Battle codex) or even 200 years (an average minimum age with extended lifespan technologies) the days could be 44,000 to 73,000 - or 44 to 70 million worlds. Given Ragnar's comments as to the age of the Great Wolf relative to normal men (700 years, 10x the span of the oldest morttal on Fenris) 70 years seems a likely number.


In any case...within an order of magnitude we could infer that there are at LEAST many tens of millions of inhabited planets in the Imperium, but quite possibly more depending on how one defined the lifespan, ,but also because its implied that "a thousandth" isnt absolute (it could be a much smaller fraction)



Sisters of Battle 2nd Edition
PAge 5

The Adeptus Ministorum split the Imperium into areas called dioceses, each led by a Cardinal who controlled the Missionaries and Preachers of hundreds of worlds.

This helps to establish the minimum size of a diocese. Which, ironically, is roughly the size of a sector (or possibly several.)

Page 34

There are several thousand Cardinals, each one responsible for a separate diocese in the Imperium.

"several thousand" would imply 2-3000, which would suggest hundreds of thousands of worlds in the Imperium, rather than tens of millions as above. We must note, however, that "several thousand" could be interpreted as meaning differen things (thousands is anything less than a million, after all.)

Also, this could also be considered a "Retcon", since some of the old SoB stuff got changed when they were hooked up to the ORdo Hereticus, so the newer stuff could be said to override the old. Works either way for me, really.

Dark Heresy

page 62

Nevertheless, the Ecclesiarchy is a vast and powerful institution comprising millions of clergymen and hundreds of thousands of dioceses spread across the far reaches of Imperial Space.

Here we learn there are "hundreds of thousands" of dioceses. With 200,000 dioceses, with 200 worlds per diocese (minimum) that is 40 million worlds in the Imperium, which coincides with the estimate from Ragnar's Claw. This of course depends on how you define the terms above, but in general we can infer tens if not hundreds of millions of worlds.

Page 127

The Imperium is vast, and amongst its billions of inhabited worlds there are countless forge worlds, factories, ,craftsmen, artificers and blacksmiths turning out weapons and armour. As can be imagined this producees a practically limitless variety of makes, patterns, and brands. It would be impossible to detail eacn and everyh different make of weapon in the Imperium (or even a small fraction of them)...

This implies there are "billions" of inhabited worlds, which is orders o fmagnitude greater than the previous estimates.

This revises some of my earlier conclusions in the following ways:

- The number of sectors goes up quite a bit. With 1 million worlds at 200 planets/sector (as per BFG) you have 5,000 sectors.. or in the tens of thousands of sectors range with "millions" of worlds as established before. With 20-40 million minimum, that number goes up to 100,000-200,000 sectors, minimum.

- Fleet numbers likewise go up. with 50-75 warp capable ships, this means that there are between 5 and 15 million warp capable ships in the Imperial Navy. Odds are its much higher, probably tens of millions. and doesn't include defense ships and smaller vessels.

- The warship breakdown, if we go by previously-established sector models, goes something like this. at least 100,000-200,000 battleships (possibly more.. say 400,000-500,000) a million or more cruiser grade ships (~10 per sector assumed) and the rest escorts of varying classes.

- Transport ships work out to roughly "hundreds" per sector, or roughly an order of magnitude more than the total number of warships. either way this works out to roughly between tens of millions or hundreds of millions of freighters and transports in the Imperium, depending on how many "hundreds" is or how big you work out the navy to be. (and this could also mean the navy is in the tens of millions of ships range too, arguably.)

- Planetary breakdown: this probably means hundreds of thousands if not millions of hive worlds, millions of civilized planets, and probably hundreds of thousands of forge worlds, easily.

This also, incidentally, means that there are at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of potential ship-building facilities in the Imperium, since at least every forge wolrd (if not manyy of the Hive and civilised worlds) could buidl warships. Hell, we know cruiser-grade vessels can be built even at feudal/feral worlds, given time and effort, so you can argue that tens of millions of potential yards exist (at least for escorts and most cruisers!)

- Population: tens of quadrillions easily. Even assuming roughly 2-3 billion per planet, thats 40 quadrillion for 20 million worlds. Of course, the breakdown is more varied, but the hive worlds again will bolster the figure by at least a couple Order so fmagnitude, so it quite possibly could go into the quintillions, even though feral/feudal/agri/forge worlds will have lower popualtions.

- PDF/Guard: going by the "several million" estimate at least, PDFs get into the tens or hundreds of trillions range easily, ,at least. Guardsmen in the trillions. If we factor in the fact hives are going to be much bigger (and provide more troops) those could increase easily by an order of magnitude or more (quadrillions of PDF and tens/hundrds of trillions of Guard)

More to come later, with some probable rationalizations for these numbers and the more common "million system" references.