Atheist Soldier Sues U.S. Defense Department

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Atheist Soldier Sues U.S. Defense Department

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Atheist soldier sues over religious freedom

By John Milburn

The Associated Press

Published Wednesday, September 19, 2007

FORT RILEY — A soldier who unsuccessfully tried to hold a meeting for atheists and other non-Christians is suing the Defense Department, claiming his right to religious freedom was violated.

The lawsuit, filed in federal court in Kansas City, Kan., alleges a pattern of practices that discriminate against non-Christians in the military. It was filed Monday, the 220th anniversary of the signing of the U.S. Constitution. It names Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Maj. Paul Welborne.

According to the filing, Spc. Jeremy Hall, a soldier assigned to Fort Riley's 97th Military Police Battalion, received permission to distribute fliers around his base in Iraq for a meeting of atheists and non-Christians.

When he tried to convene the meeting, Hall claims, Welborne stepped in, threatening to file military charges against Hall and block his re-enlistment.


Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which is helping Hall with his lawsuit, said it is the first of many to come.

"We're going to expose the pernicious practice and pattern of these massive violations of the Constitution," Weinstein said. "That we had to go to this extent is just a heinous disgrace that defies any possible explanation."

Lt. Col. Jonathan Withington, a spokesman for the Defense Department, said he wasn't aware of the lawsuit but the military places a "high value" on the right of military personnel to practice their faith.

"It is DoD policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on military readiness, unit cohesion, standards or discipline," Withington said.

The lawsuit claims Hall was forced to "submit to a religious test as a qualification to his post as a soldier." Hall and the foundation are asking the court to block Welborne from establishing "compulsory religious practices" and order Gates to prevent Welborne from interfering with Hall's free speech rights.

Since its founding in 2005, the foundation has received nearly 6,000 calls from men and women in the military raising concerns about violations of religious freedom, Weinstein said.

Most of the calls, he said, were Christians concerned about coercion from superior officers trying to push their beliefs.

"We're trying to prevent the chain of command from going all the way to the West Wing to making diminutive fundamental Christianity be the foreign and domestic policy of the United States," he said.

Weinstein and his youngest son, Curtis, claim to have encountered anti-Semitism as Jewish cadets at the Air Force Academy. They have written a book, "With God on Our Side," about the issue.

A federal judge in Colorado dismissed a lawsuit in 2006 by Weinstein and four other Air Force Academy graduates who claimed that particular religious views were being pushed on cadets.

Last year, Weinstein threatened to file a lawsuit over what he and others called "anti-Semitic" Bible studies posted by the Fort Leavenworth Command Chaplain's Web site. The documents, which were first posted in 1999, were removed after complaints were raised by Weinstein's foundation.

Separately, seven Army and Air Force officers, including four generals, face possible disciplinary action for violating ethics rules by assisting a Christian group in the production of a fundraising video. A Pentagon inspector general's report released earlier this month found the officers were interviewed in uniform and "in official and often identifiable Pentagon locations."

The video was for the evangelical group Christian Embassy. The report found that none of the officers received approval from superiors to participate in video interviews in an official capacity or in uniform.

Air Force and Army officials are reviewing that report.
Those wacky Christians...

Seriously, I find it admirable and noteworthy and that some service members who are Christian found it irksome that their superiors were pushing religious beliefs on them.
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Damnation, here's the link. Frightfully sorry about that. :oops:
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Post by Darth Wong »

It's not surprising that Christians might object to the proselytizing of fellow Christians. There has been inter-denominational hostility between different Christian sects for centuries.
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Post by Lonestar »

Who is Maj. Paul Welborne? Batt Commander? Chaplain? What authority was he operating under when he attempted to prevent an "Atheist" group from being formed?

Article doesn't say.
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Post by MKSheppard »

FORT RILEY!

Brunghardt! :luv:
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Darth Wong wrote:It's not surprising that Christians might object to the proselytizing of fellow Christians. There has been inter-denominational hostility between different Christian sects for centuries.
It would be interesting to know exactly which denomination it was that was being pushy.

Lonestar wrote:Who is Maj. Paul Welborne? Batt Commander? Chaplain? What authority was he operating under when he attempted to prevent an "Atheist" group from being formed?

Article doesn't say.
Indeed, very good question, but unfortunately every article I can find about this is just a copy of the original AP story.
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Post by Flagg »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's not surprising that Christians might object to the proselytizing of fellow Christians. There has been inter-denominational hostility between different Christian sects for centuries.
It would be interesting to know exactly which denomination it was that was being pushy.

Southern Baptists or 'evangelicals'. Or a combination of the 2.
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Post by Medic »

MKSheppard wrote:FORT RILEY!

Brunghardt! :luv:
:banghead: There's no "h" you habitual-adder-of-that-nonexistent-consonant-in-my-surname you.

Also, the "There are atheists in foxholes" subforum at richarddawkins.net covered this story a good time ago and it gives us a little bit more information which puts this Major Asshole in an even worse light.

MAAF (that's not an exact link but neither is it in the relevant thread on that board)
One of our members held a MAAF meeting at his base here in Iraq and ended up being harassed and threatened with UCMJ action by a fundamentalist officer who posed as a "freethinker" in order to get in to the meeting. I forwarded the member's actual report to Jason, but I've done a sanitized write-up (deleted names and references to installations) on what happened for his protection because I expect this to make the rounds of the various interested parties. Here's the story I'm circulating:

Thought you'd be interested in this report of the first-ever meeting of Atheist service-members in Iraq under the umbrella of the MAAF-Iraq chapter of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers.

One of our members, a young Atheist enlisted soldier, thought he would like to see if he could generate some interest in MAAF meetings at his Forward Operating Base (FOB) here in Iraq (not the base I'm at, by the way). He got things coordinated and started hanging flyers, and after weeks of having to re-hang his flyers almost daily because some vandal kept tearing them down, he finally succeeded in having a small MAAF meeting. I wasn't there because the meeting wasn't on my FOB, but I knew he was holding it and was expecting to hear from him after the meeting. Keep in mind that this young soldier did everything right - he went through the Chaplain's office and jumped through all the hoops it takes to legally hold meetings that are religiously or philosophically based. Four soldiers attended this meeting - all of them very junior enlisted soldiers with the exception of one Major (an O-4), who claimed to be a "freethinker".

Well, to make a very long story a little shorter, the Major turned out to be a fundamentalist Christian who verbally berated the other attendees, accused them of plotting against Christians and disrespecting soldiers who have died protecting the Constitution, and threatened them with punishment under the UCMJ for their activities (said they were "going down") and said he would do whatever it took to shut the meetings down. Keep in mind that by this point, he had two of the attendees (one soldier fled when the shouting started) standing at the position of attention so that he could yell at them, berate them, and humiliate them. This apparently went on for several minutes at which time the Major shut down the meeting by saying he wasn't some "push-over Chaplain" and that he would not tolerate the meetings to continue.

The young MAAF member who hosted the meeting is absolutely freaked out about what happened, but he said he's going to continue with the meetings and isn't going to be bullied by the prayer warriors. I've advised him to immediately notify the Chaplain sponsor of what happened to get guidance while I try to figure out what to do next. I should hear something back from him tonight sometime and there's even a small possibility I might be able to score a mission to his FOB and attend one of his meetings in the next few weeks (if I do, I'll meet with the Chaplain in person).

As for immediate action, he's going to get me the names of his Chaplain sponsor and the name of the officer who disrupted the meeting. My intent right now is to make a formal report to the most senior Chaplain I can find along with possibly an Equal Opportunity complaint against the officer if we can get him fully identified. I may not be eligible to make that complaint because I wasn't there, but I can at least smooth the way for this young troop to make one if he elects to. At the very least, I can make the EO office formally aware of what happened there.

More info will follow when I get it, but right now, feel free to disseminate this information since I've intentionally sanitized it for names and locations. I will be happy to forward any words of support to him if they get mailed to my email address - he could really use some encouragement right now, I think.
Names are sanitized in this but it sounds like our champion.

FYI though to the non-military persons reading this, there exists channels within the military and chain of command to address such grievances. It's by no means perfect and that may be why we see this as a lawsuit against the Department of Defense now but we do have an Equal Opportunity policy with EO personnel in every battalion level unit or so that work to solve these issues. More fundamentally than that though a great many number of problems in Army units are solved and stay "in house."

Anyway, I just realized that that thread also contains this news story, that's confirmation they speak of the same moron. As to who this Major belonged to, it's quite likely he wasn't in any of the Soldiers direct chain of command, since Hall put up flyers all over a major base. Anyone in a number of units could have seen it and my money's betting this guy works in the S3 shop. (this is because S-3 shops are composed of mid-grade officers like Majors and NCO's particularly from E6-8 that in combat arms units get shafted out of their normal occupation by virtue of being in an S-3 shop. Instead of being in a rifle platoon or a tank platoon, they're dealing with the battalion or brigade level chain of command and the nature of the job is such that once you get certain qualifications like Master Gunner or other stuff, you're stuck in S-3 for the rest of your career. It's hard to explain if you're not in the Army but long story short: S-3 is a skull-sucking experience where dreams go to die) Fucking S-3... but yeah, totally biased guess on my behalf. :)
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Post by Block »

I find this pretty interesting, both in Boot Camp and at Pendelton they went out of their way to let us know where any and all religious facilities were, without comment on them. They also allowed atheists to meet in the interfaith center, in a room as large as any of the others, for the same hour the rest of us got for religious services. This is far from the norm, and the guy is clearly way outside the UCMJ.
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Flagg wrote:
It would be interesting to know exactly which denomination it was that was being pushy.

Southern Baptists or 'evangelicals'. Or a combination of the 2.
Yeah, that's probably a safe bet. :)
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Post by Solauren »

So, some dumb ass fundie Major decided to VIOLATE PROCEEDURE AND REGULATIONS?

Ouch. This is nearly a big a clusterfuck as Iraq (rimshot).

Seriously though, shouldn't the major be up on in-service charges?
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Post by Flagg »

Solauren wrote:So, some dumb ass fundie Major decided to VIOLATE PROCEEDURE AND REGULATIONS?

Ouch. This is nearly a big a clusterfuck as Iraq (rimshot).

Seriously though, shouldn't the major be up on in-service charges?
Why? He's only spreading the word of God. I mean this is a Christian nation. :wanker:
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Post by Sidewinder »

I remember seeking help from Army chaplains when I was feeling down. The chaplains were helpful, but sergeants who were evangelistic Christians were NOT. Maybe the problem is the training those two groups receive.
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Sidewinder wrote:I remember seeking help from Army chaplains when I was feeling down. The chaplains were helpful, but sergeants who were evangelistic Christians were NOT. Maybe the problem is the training those two groups receive.
In what way were they unhelpful? Were they just interested in proselytizing?
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Post by Sidewinder »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:I remember seeking help from Army chaplains when I was feeling down. The chaplains were helpful, but sergeants who were evangelistic Christians were NOT. Maybe the problem is the training those two groups receive.
In what way were they unhelpful? Were they just interested in proselytizing?
Yes. The chaplains I knew were willing to lend a sympathetic ear. The sergeants wouldn't know sympathy if it bit them in the ass.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Flagg »

Sidewinder wrote:
FSTargetDrone wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:I remember seeking help from Army chaplains when I was feeling down. The chaplains were helpful, but sergeants who were evangelistic Christians were NOT. Maybe the problem is the training those two groups receive.
In what way were they unhelpful? Were they just interested in proselytizing?
Yes. The chaplains I knew were willing to lend a sympathetic ear. The sergeants wouldn't know sympathy if it bit them in the ass.
I'm guessing their idea of help was telling you to read the Bible, accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, or some combination thereof?
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Block wrote:I find this pretty interesting, both in Boot Camp and at Pendelton they went out of their way to let us know where any and all religious facilities were, without comment on them. They also allowed atheists to meet in the interfaith center, in a room as large as any of the others, for the same hour the rest of us got for religious services. This is far from the norm, and the guy is clearly way outside the UCMJ.
Indeed. In boot camp, where you went to church on sunday (if at all) was treated with the utmost respect. It was like the only things the Drill Instructors were even vaguely scared of fucking with. If a recruit requested to go to Catholic Mass one sunday and Mormon chruch the next, he'd do it and without anyone blinking an eye at him.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Still, this isn't the first time that allegations of blatant proselytizing have been heard, and we know that there are plenty of churches out there which preach a very militant form of Christianity. If the people who attend these churches end up in ranking positions in the Army, this kind of thing probably goes on in more units than anyone can possibly know. For each person who stands up and makes a fuss about a strongly evangelical atmosphere in some particular unit, how many just quietly go along with the program so they won't make waves?

In business, they have the "ten to one rule": for every customer who complains, there are probably ten who were pissed off but didn't actually say anything. The ratio is probably worse for the military.
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Post by PainRack »

Flagg wrote: I'm guessing their idea of help was telling you to read the Bible, accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, or some combination thereof?
isn't that illegal? From what I read of the US Army chaplains system, unless you're a christian and seeking spiritual help, they can't push their faith on you. I'm sure the rules are lax enough that they get to use biblical proverbs and other stories but the behaviour you describe doesn't seem to be allowed. Much less what shit-head major here pulled.
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PainRack wrote:
Flagg wrote: I'm guessing their idea of help was telling you to read the Bible, accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, or some combination thereof?
isn't that illegal? From what I read of the US Army chaplains system, unless you're a christian and seeking spiritual help, they can't push their faith on you. I'm sure the rules are lax enough that they get to use biblical proverbs and other stories but the behaviour you describe doesn't seem to be allowed. Much less what shit-head major here pulled.
They've been documented doing it. In fact there was, IIRC a lawsuit recently filed against a military hospital by a jewish officer who was denied kosher food and preached to by hospital staff and chaplains against his will while he was confined to a hospital bed
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Darth Wong wrote:Still, this isn't the first time that allegations of blatant proselytizing have been heard, and we know that there are plenty of churches out there which preach a very militant form of Christianity. If the people who attend these churches end up in ranking positions in the Army, this kind of thing probably goes on in more units than anyone can possibly know. For each person who stands up and makes a fuss about a strongly evangelical atmosphere in some particular unit, how many just quietly go along with the program so they won't make waves?

In business, they have the "ten to one rule": for every customer who complains, there are probably ten who were pissed off but didn't actually say anything. The ratio is probably worse for the military.

The obverse is actually just as likely to be true, for every "true christian" prosyltizer you are likely to have 10 guys who couldn't give a shit or at least ten guys for every one who complains. Honestly what faith you are matters about nothing amongst guys in a FOB. Its just seen as whatever way you happen to spend the little down time you have. For most guys you would think sleep and porn were their religion but more importantly in aN FOB there isn't time to deal with overzealous adherents of any faith because you have a job to do and people who interject crap into your life which has nothing to do with the job are just seen as a waste of good oxygen.
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Post by Medic »

:lol: Wilkens summarized my thoughts as well so both the Army and USMC are similar in this regard and I don't believe it should be too different for other branches. Keep in mind the military is very diverse, ethnically and religiously with servicemembers from every corner of the country. It behooves company and field grade officers to create a secular workplace which is all I've ever worked in.

If anything it's typically NCO's that are the proselytizing type for no other reason than they work with their servicemembers on a daily basis, know them more personally than officers typically do and have less responsibility and less prying eyes into how they conduct their business. Simply put, officers typically have a tougher time getting away with it; even if they tried the consequences for them failing to uphold equal opportunity's purpose is a lot harsher than it is for senior NCO's. (Enlisted personnel definitely have lower expectations placed on them than commissioned officers and it shows by the fact that they can screw up a lot more) When anyone from an E-6 to an E-9 DOES try to bring all his soldiers into his religion, he can only effect so many and most commanding officers have an open-door policy. If anything, a servicemember can only go wrong by failing to notify his NCO leadership that he wishes to take advantage of his platoon or company leader's open-door policy and jumping the chain-of-command cause it's understood among the more professional leaders that if the problem is platoon or company level leadership, you can't likely resolve it that level.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The "we have better things to do than talk religion" argument works for business too, but that doesn't mean there aren't nutjobs out there who get into a position of authority and try to use that position to lean on people they don't like for religious reasons.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Darth Wong wrote:The "we have better things to do than talk religion" argument works for business too, but that doesn't mean there aren't nutjobs out there who get into a position of authority and try to use that position to lean on people they don't like for religious reasons.
The difference being that in buisness when you have better things to do there is still lax time, in a FOB where you are lucky to get 6 hours of sleep spending aytime prosletyzing is gonna get you fucking killed. Not because of anything like fragging but because devoting your time to that when nobody has time for anything is going to wear you down and leave you making mistakes that will cost people their lives. That's the difference because like as not when you step outside the gate (hell even when you are inside the gate) you have to devote so much energy to keep alive because little mistakes or missed clues will kill you that dealing with shit like what is mentioned above is rare at best because prioritizing means sleep and relaxation take a huge first place on those rare moments you aren't either on patrol prepping for patrol or debreifing after a patrol (or eating/showering/performing the daily basics of staying alive).

Now I'm not saying this shit doesn't happen and certainly stateside or on bigger more secure bases like Balad it is much likelier but at FOBs this shit is going to be extremely rare.
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Post by Flagg »

PainRack wrote:
Flagg wrote: I'm guessing their idea of help was telling you to read the Bible, accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, or some combination thereof?
isn't that illegal? From what I read of the US Army chaplains system, unless you're a christian and seeking spiritual help, they can't push their faith on you. I'm sure the rules are lax enough that they get to use biblical proverbs and other stories but the behaviour you describe doesn't seem to be allowed. Much less what shit-head major here pulled.
Lots of shit is illegal but still goes on all the fucking time, especially if it's motivated by religion. My 4th grade teacher singled me out and made my life hell for not buying into her creationist bullshit, which she taught openly while ridiculing evolution, and the school looked the other way.
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