Jedi tactics

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2007-09-19 12:59pm

The Jedi devote great deal of time to saber duels but never seem to use any military tactics involving firearms. Their tactics against soldiers consist of rushing in while deflecting blaster fire and hacking the gunslingers. TheJedi dont take guns seriously even though majority of their enemies use them. Even a legendary jedi like Mace Windu put his knights surrounded by thousands of droids with no cover. Because of Jedi's impressive precognition and speed this kind of brute force tactics worked most of the time, untill they were all gunned down that is.

So why dont the Jedi fight like soldiers using cover instead of standing in open or use the Force creatively like Magneto messing around with guns, cars etc in x-men films ?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2007-09-19 01:27pm

first off, since the Ruusan reformation there has been no Jedi soldiers (until the Clone Wars ofc) or as Mace Windu put "we're keepers of the peace, not warriors"

the Jedi are mostly diplomats and/or specialized police force.

It takes time to develop effective combat tactics (especially if you had none to begin with).

as flashy Force moves it takes alot of effort and it's quite possible that most Jedi can't even do it.

DogsOfWar · Post by **DogsOfWar** » 2007-09-19 02:52pm

The battle of Genonosis(sp?) was the first major engagement which the Jedi fought in since the Republic was founded. They had little need up to that point for military training or tactics.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2007-09-19 03:07pm

DogsOfWar wrote:The battle of Genonosis(sp?) was the first major engagement which the Jedi fought in since the Republic was founded. They had little need up to that point for military training or tactics.

well first battle since refounding of the Republic after the Ruusan reformation (1000 before TPM)

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-09-19 06:23pm

The reason Jedi don't fight like soldiers is because they aren't soldiers. They're essentially a police force. Hell, that entire Geonosis battle was obviously an attempt by Windu to cow Dooku with the sheer number of Jedi present and the power of their reputation. After all, look at the reaction by the regular Geonosians: they scattered the moment the Jedi lit their sabers. Only problem was that Windu probably expected Dooku to yield instead of fight.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-09-19 06:48pm

Peptuck wrote:The reason Jedi don't fight like soldiers is because they aren't soldiers. They're essentially a police force. Hell, that entire Geonosis battle was obviously an attempt by Windu to cow Dooku with the sheer number of Jedi present and the power of their reputation. After all, look at the reaction by the regular Geonosians: they scattered the moment the Jedi lit their sabers. Only problem was that Windu probably expected Dooku to yield instead of fight.

Indeed. A far better example of Jedi tactics comes from the KOTOR era. There we see Jedi soldiers, and its fairly impressive. Battle armored robes, personal shielding units, cybernetic implants, and in some cases, power armor.

As for tactics/stratagems, I'll direct you to Darth Revan.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2007-09-19 08:18pm

Aratech wrote:
Indeed. A far better example of Jedi tactics comes from the KOTOR era. There we see Jedi soldiers, and its fairly impressive. Battle armored robes, personal shielding units, cybernetic implants, and in some cases, power armor.

As for tactics/stratagems, I'll direct you to Darth Revan.

The Jedi under Luke Skywalker are a bit more heavily armed than the average Jedi under Yoda. See: Kyle Katarn.

Ryan Thunder · Post by **Ryan Thunder** » 2007-09-19 08:52pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Aratech wrote:
Indeed. A far better example of Jedi tactics comes from the KOTOR era. There we see Jedi soldiers, and its fairly impressive. Battle armored robes, personal shielding units, cybernetic implants, and in some cases, power armor.

As for tactics/stratagems, I'll direct you to Darth Revan.
The Jedi under Luke Skywalker are a bit more heavily armed than the average Jedi under Yoda. See: Kyle Katarn.

Just a tad.

But remember, he's the Jedi Battlemaster. Probably counts for something, especially when they had to pretty much start over.

Fiji_Fury · Post by **Fiji_Fury** » 2007-09-19 09:36pm

Is Kyle Katarn in any of the novels? I seem to recal his name being uttered by Luke Skywalker at the end of the New Jedi Order series, and then him appearing in that abortion of sci-fi called the Swarm War. Let me know if I'm wrong, but other than a brief mentioning or a complacent appearance on the Jedi Council, Kyle Katarn is never depicted as doing anything in the novels. I only mention this because it doesn't seem quite right if he kicks as much ass as the games portray.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2007-09-19 10:20pm

Kyle's had one or two novels about him, but nothing in the 'mainstream' with Luke and co.

Probably because the authors arn't allowed to interfer with him for purposes of game continuality.

I mean, come on, someone off's Kyle, you'll piss off the FPS players, and you can't have any more Jedi Knight games without basing them on 'Jaden'.

Ryan Thunder · Post by **Ryan Thunder** » 2007-09-19 10:22pm

Right, forgot about that.

Correction: He's been called the Jedi Battlemaster by sources of ambiguous canonicity.

Or something like that.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2007-09-19 11:31pm

Regarding the claims that the Jedi Order is a police, not military, force: aren't real police officers trained to use cover and concealment in gunfights?

Dark Flame · Post by **Dark Flame** » 2007-09-19 11:45pm

Sidewinder wrote:Regarding the claims that the Jedi Order is a police, not military, force: aren't real police officers trained to use cover and concealment in gunfights?

Yes, but the Jedi have the capability to create cover wherever they want it with a simple flourish of the lightsaber. They're more used to fighting one or two miscreants, where they can effectivily use that tactic, than thousands of armed enemies.

Alien-Carrot · Post by **Alien-Carrot** » 2007-09-20 01:41am

Sorces of ambiguous canonocity

I have got to use that line against jay or asimov.

As too KOTOR, whats with the personal shields?

We never see any persona shield in the trilogies, except for destroyer droids. I would imaging the empire would love to use such things for stormies, or at least imperial guards. But we never see any.

Was the technology lost? Or was the shield system on destroyes the culmination of the personal shield, and the tech was lost with the downfall of the trade federation?

Personally, I would go with the last option.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2007-09-20 01:53am

Alien-Carrot wrote:Sorces of ambiguous canonocity

I have got to use that line against jay or asimov.

As too KOTOR, whats with the personal shields?

We never see any persona shield in the trilogies, except for destroyer droids. I would imaging the empire would love to use such things for stormies, or at least imperial guards. But we never see any.

Was the technology lost? Or was the shield system on destroyes the culmination of the personal shield, and the tech was lost with the downfall of the trade federation?

Personally, I would go with the last option.

The easiest explanation is that it is expensive. Your average stormie wont have it because of this.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2007-09-20 01:57am

Personal shielding technology is supposedly expensive, burns out quickly, and not one hundred percent reliable. So not something to issue to your average line trooper.

Alien-Carrot · Post by **Alien-Carrot** » 2007-09-20 02:11am

Personal shielding technology is supposedly expensive, burns out quickly, and not one hundred percent reliable. So not something to issue to your average line trooper.

Kevlar is expensive, can only stop e few rounds before it comprimised, and doesnt cover the entire body. But its standard for fbi, army, and swat teams.

And how expensive can a 1 pound chunk of electronics and emmiters be compared to say, a death star.

I'm pretty sure the empire could put 5 shield emmiters on every storm trooper if that didn't build even 1 star destroyer.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2007-09-20 02:40am

I think by the movie era blaster firepower had surpassed personal shielding. In the past armour was highly effective against arrows, javelins etc but increased power of guns changed all that. Now no one goes to battle wearing knightly armour. A similar thing happened in the SW galaxy.

Napoleon the Clown · Post by **Napoleon the Clown** » 2007-09-20 04:27am

Alien-Carrot wrote:
Personal shielding technology is supposedly expensive, burns out quickly, and not one hundred percent reliable. So not something to issue to your average line trooper.
Kevlar is expensive, can only stop e few rounds before it comprimised, and doesnt cover the entire body. But its standard for fbi, army, and swat teams.

And how expensive can a 1 pound chunk of electronics and emmiters be compared to say, a death star.

I'm pretty sure the empire could put 5 shield emmiters on every storm trooper if that didn't build even 1 star destroyer.

Kevlar may be on the expensive side of things, but an upper-middle class joe could afford a jacket, if they were paranoid. For the protection it does offer, the cost isn't bad at all.

A "1 pound chunk of electronics and emmiters" may not be prohibitively expensive on its own, but stop and think about how many would need to be procured and how often they'd need to be replaced. Also keep in mind that they probably became a lot less effective as time went on. A 45 pound set of fullplate could stop bullets of the time. Now you can go and buy easily concealable firearms that will go through it and still kill the bastard inside. For surprisingly cheap.

lord Martiya · Post by **lord Martiya** » 2007-09-20 04:40am

Sarevok wrote:I think by the movie era blaster firepower had surpassed personal shielding. In the past armour was highly effective against arrows, javelins etc but increased power of guns changed all that. Now no one goes to battle wearing knightly armour. A similar thing happened in the SW galaxy.

In AOTC I remember that a clonetrooper destroyed a destroyer droid with only one shot. Clearly destroyer droids are lethal against poorly armed enemies as Naboos and Gungans, and I suppose that they were constructed to deal against pirates and clients that don't want pay, but against military troopers with assault rifles and other high-powered weapons they will literally cut in ribbons.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2007-09-20 09:16am

lord Martiya wrote:
Sarevok wrote:I think by the movie era blaster firepower had surpassed personal shielding. In the past armour was highly effective against arrows, javelins etc but increased power of guns changed all that. Now no one goes to battle wearing knightly armour. A similar thing happened in the SW galaxy.
In AOTC I remember that a clonetrooper destroyed a destroyer droid with only one shot. Clearly destroyer droids are lethal against poorly armed enemies as Naboos and Gungans, and I suppose that they were constructed to deal against pirates and clients that don't want pay, but against military troopers with assault rifles and other high-powered weapons they will literally cut in ribbons.

Indeed. And if they cost as much as hinted and don't last very long in combat then they aren't practicle for general deployment. They might be practicle for the very specialized Special Forces Unit but they might when on tip off said person's position on sensors as well. In the Courtship Of Princess Liea, Price Isolder was able to wear one that ws about the size of a Texan's belt buckle. The problem was that its was indicated that it was only good for a half dozen shots at best and every hit made the unit hotter and hotter to the point that at the end of the engagement that simply touching it was enough to give an opponent 3rd degree burns almost instanly. This is not something youe want turned on on a fellow soldier standing close to you in a battle formation. For the loner its great and gives protection again the sniper but pray you aren't standing next to him when he turns it on!

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2007-09-20 10:20am

For the record, Katarn has been mentioned in quite a few of the NJO books. He also had a couple of comics dedicated to him in the Vong War period as well.

And the NJO under Luke often go in armed to the teeth. The Strike Team that went after the Voxyen cloning facilities wore light, but very protecting armor jumpsuits, carried a large mixture of Thermal Detonators (various yields), flash grenades, frag grenades and other little bits and pieces like claymore style tripmines, Yalsamari bait...

For weapons they all had blaster pistols as well as their lightsabres, then as a minimum they had light repeating blasters, more then a few had high powered minicannons or sniper laser rifles.

So they know to load up for bear.

Pretty much the same equipment was used in Destinies Way by the Jedi for that matter.

And yes, the NJO Jedi appear to be much more able to function as soliders / warriors then the Old Republic era Jedi, who just were little more then police officers thrust into a role that they were poorly suited for.

Darth Massacrus · Post by **Darth Massacrus** » 2007-09-20 02:33pm

Alien-Carrot wrote:Sorces of ambiguous canonocity

I have got to use that line against jay or asimov.

As too KOTOR, whats with the personal shields?

We never see any persona shield in the trilogies, except for destroyer droids. I would imaging the empire would love to use such things for stormies, or at least imperial guards. But we never see any.
.

True, to an extent. The Empire did indeed have knowledge of personal shields, as Grand Vizier Sate Pestage had his own personal force shield device. And it is worth mentioning that in the KOTOR games, most of the energy shields do not last for very long, especially against some of the more advanced weaponry, and is worthless against disrupters. I dont recall ever hearing that the technology had been lost, but it was likely that it had become inefficient to mass produce and sustain (especially on a fighting force the size of the Grand Army).

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-09-20 06:27pm

Kyle Katarn is not a typical example of a Jedi from any era.

In-universe, he started out as an Imperial special ops commando who defected to the Alliance, and performed numerous highly successful saboteur missions against very heavily defended Imperial installations.
Only later did he go on his Force-powered romp of self-discovery, and later accept some guidance from Luke.

Out of universe, he's a classic FPS game character in the lines of Doom and Quake. He doesn't leave home without an arsenal that you wouldn't be able to fit in your car, projecting enough firepower to take out a small town.

And his lightsaber.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2007-09-21 10:04am

Darth Massacrus wrote:
Alien-Carrot wrote:Sorces of ambiguous canonocity

I have got to use that line against jay or asimov.

As too KOTOR, whats with the personal shields?

We never see any persona shield in the trilogies, except for destroyer droids. I would imaging the empire would love to use such things for stormies, or at least imperial guards. But we never see any.
.
True, to an extent. The Empire did indeed have knowledge of personal shields, as Grand Vizier Sate Pestage had his own personal force shield device. And it is worth mentioning that in the KOTOR games, most of the energy shields do not last for very long, especially against some of the more advanced weaponry, and is worthless against disrupters. I dont recall ever hearing that the technology had been lost, but it was likely that it had become inefficient to mass produce and sustain (especially on a fighting force the size of the Grand Army).

It definitely wasn't entirely lost - Prince Isolder of Hapes had one in The Courtship of Princess Leia. It seems to have become more of an anti-assassin device, probably due to the limited durability on the battlefield.