The Trade Federation vs. the Alpha Quadrant - corporate wars

[ArcturusMengsk]

Suppose that, sometime between the Battles of Naboo and Endor, a wormhole connecting the GFFA (somewhere deep within Trade Federation-controlled space) to the Alpha Quadrant (located in the Neutral Zone) is discovered on a routine scouting mission by the Trade Federation. Seeing this as an opportunity to gather war materiele for the coming conflict but unwilling to divert major military or space-borne assets from the home galaxy for fear of alerting the Republic, they instead establish a small colony on one of the worlds inside the wormhole system. Contact is made several weeks later when both the Romulans and the Federation detect activity within the system and dispatch vessels to investigate.

Bear in mind that, for the purposes of this scenario, the cowardly Neimoidian leadership of the Trade Federation are unwilling to use overtly overtly oppressive means to attain their goals, but still want to establish a position in the new galaxy both for its resources and for its possible use as a strategic locale.

How does first contact with the respective parties fair? How will the other Alpha Quadrant powers respond? Which will be the most susceptible to full-blown buyout, and which can still compete? How might you manage this scenario?

[Aaron]

This has been done before. The short version is that no one in the Federation Galaxy can compete with the Trade Federation, who has enough resources that their withdrawl from the Galactic Republic actaully helped cripple the economy. These guys make the Ferengi look like preschool children by comparison. They could probably afford to buy out the entire Alpha Quadrant if they wanted.

[Darth Tanner]

The Trade Federation could exterminate the entire Alpha Quadrant with a couple of their ships.

Also what resources would the Trade Federation want access to in the ST galaxy that aren't already available through the existing industrial infrastructure in their home galaxy? Any new developments are going to need massive investment to get running while the existing factorise/mines are already set up.

Going with the trade war scenario however...
Federation - hostile reaction from the commies, trade embargo and open war. Unlikely the Numodians could find any purchase in a state with no private investment or actual money.
Romulans - likely to allow limited trade but with some means to prevent Trade Federation ships carrying it into their space due to the xenophobia. A Navigation Act style system for example.
Klingons - grrrr shoot them numodians and steal their stuff!
Ferenngi - Depneds, TNG Ferengi would likely be the same as Klingons but DS9 Ferengi would capitulate and try their luck in open trade conflict. Quickly being bought out most likely depending on how much resources the Numdoians are willing to commit.

Me - The best use for the Milky Way galaxy is to sterilise all the neighbouring powers and start moving my war industry onto their planets so that once the Clone Wars begin the Republic will find it difficult to locate them, let alone destroy them. Also massing my fleet at the wormhole will help defeat the tactical advantage of an attacking fleet armed with hyperdrive. However this does nothing to alleviate the threat posed to the member worlds of the CIS so the advantage of this may be minimal.

[Darth Wong]

Bear in mind that, for the purposes of this scenario, the cowardly Neimoidian leadership of the Trade Federation are unwilling to use overtly overtly oppressive means to attain their goals, but still want to establish a position in the new galaxy both for its resources and for its possible use as a strategic locale.

These Federation types are cowards, but their droids are not. Those battledroids we saw in TPM had been used many times before. The TradeFed has never shied away from the use of force.

[Jark]

Federation - hostile reaction from the commies, trade embargo and open war. Unlikely the Numodians could find any purchase in a state with no private investment or actual money.

Money exists in the Federation. It's just Trek Humans who for the most part don't use money.

[Aaron]

I've always been curious of one thing: if the Federation doesn't use money, how does Sisko's Dad operate his restuarant? What does he exchange for his services, and how does he procure food?

[Darth Wong]

I've always been curious of one thing: if the Federation doesn't use money, how does Sisko's Dad operate his restuarant? What does he exchange for his services, and how does he procure food?

Even Communist Russia had money (rubles). It's impossible to operate an economy, even a socialist utopia, without money. Money is a necessary quantifier of labour and resources. I think that Trek humans "don't have money" the same way they "eliminated disease" even though we hear the names of many diseases and infections throughout the TNG series run. Or more acutely, the way Americans trumpet their "freedom" even though it shrinks every year. Advertising slogans don't have to be true; they only have to be frequently repeated.

[Jark]

I've always been curious of one thing: if the Federation doesn't use money, how does Sisko's Dad operate his restuarant? What does he exchange for his services, and how does he procure food?

We never find out as far as I know.

Nor do we know what Picards family gets for making wine.

Maybe they do actually make profit for the work they do. The whole thing about Humans not using money could just mean they don't require it for their society to function, but it can still be used in their society to aquire certain things.

[FedRebel]

I've always been curious of one thing: if the Federation doesn't use money, how does Sisko's Dad operate his restuarant?

Everything is provided for him by the government

What does he exchange for his services,[/quote]

A comfortable environment in which people can enjoy good non-replicated food

and how does he procure food?

Everything is provided for him by the government

[Aaron]

We never find out as far as I know.

Nor do we know what Picards family gets for making wine.

Maybe they do actually make profit for the work they do. The whole thing about Humans not using money could just mean they don't require it for their society to function, but it can still be used in their society to aquire certain things.

Darth Wong makes an excellent point in that their "we don't have money" is just basically propaganda. But there's also tangable proof that Sisko's father must get paid something, he had to import "tube grubs" from Fereginar when Nog was at the Academy. And I doubt the Feregini are just going to give them to him for free.

[Jark]

Everything is provided for him by the government

A comfortable environment in which people can enjoy good non-replicated food

Everything is provided for him by the government

Do you have evidence that this is the case? Nog mentioned that Siskos father was the only person on the planet who could get him live tube grubs. I don't see how that really works out if it's the government providing everything.

[Jark]

Damnit, people keep posting my points before I do.

[Lord Revan]

besides the "goverment provides everything they need" doesn't work either when you think about it, as goverments need to get the materials from somewhere (btw replicators do need raw materials)

personally I think Mike's idea is the best, as it doesn't fly against everything we know about the economy and as much as we would like it to not be so, people can be manipulated by propaganda to a point were they have some really odd belives.

[Jark]

besides the "goverment provides everything they need" doesn't work either when you think about it, as goverments need to get the materials from somewhere (btw replicators do need raw materials)

personally I think Mike's idea is the best, as it doesn't fly against everything we know about the economy and as much as we would like it to not be so, people can be manipulated by propaganda to a point were they have some really odd belives.

I don't know if propaganda would really cover it. Take for example Jake Sisko in the episode where he's trying to get a baseball card for his dad. He states because he's Human he has no money and goes into talking about the whole Human self betterment thing. But how could he be so easily fooled by the propaganda when his own grandfather owns and runs a business where he's apparently getting some form of money for his services?

For now, I'm liking what I said earlier where money isn't necessary for Human civilization to run anymore, but they can still earn money by providing a service. I don't think that's contradicted by anything else we've heard on the subject.

[Darth Wong]

besides the "goverment provides everything they need" doesn't work either when you think about it, as goverments need to get the materials from somewhere (btw replicators do need raw materials)

personally I think Mike's idea is the best, as it doesn't fly against everything we know about the economy and as much as we would like it to not be so, people can be manipulated by propaganda to a point were they have some really odd belives.

I don't know if propaganda would really cover it. Take for example Jake Sisko in the episode where he's trying to get a baseball card for his dad. He states because he's Human he has no money and goes into talking about the whole Human self betterment thing. But how could he be so easily fooled by the propaganda when his own grandfather owns and runs a business where he's apparently getting some form of money for his services?

For now, I'm liking what I said earlier where money isn't necessary for Human civilization to run anymore, but they can still earn money by providing a service. I don't think that's contradicted by anything else we've heard on the subject.

How the hell can you run a society with no method of quantifying goods and services? Do they have balance sheets where they write "15 lbs of berries" and "8 duranium bars" instead of abstracting all of those assets into a numeric quantifier that accounts for relative values? The idea of operating a society with no method of quantifying value is totally absurd, even in a socialist utopia.

[brianeyci]

Stas Bush has talked about communism before and remarked that the classical Marxist society would be nanotechnology factories. Basically people would go into nano factories and order what they wanted, and eventually they would get it. Once everybody is so rich that nobody needs to be poor, it won't really matter that a few elites are far far richer, at least to the middle class happy to browse their nano catalogues.

The problem with Star Trek is its canon is so huge and there's so many contradictions. Replicators in Star Trek are not good enough to make anything and everything. People prefer real food to replicator food. There's rations. I imagine the Federation cash equivalent is the replicator ration, and for Starfleet they get some special treatment, probably latinum to deal with xeno races given Riker had some latinum on him.

During the war, the replicator rations must have been very tight. The word money is probably associated with purchase of luxuries, and it's a simple matter of reprogramming replicators not to make luxury items. Then your populace is devoid of any sort of luxury at all, and they see it as a necessary sacrifice to maintain their culture. Sort of like North Korea: if they never know what's out there, they will buy that the US has a lower standard of living and their scraps is normal or even rich.

Of course economic theory says under price controls there should be a vibrant black market. Hilter avoided this through oppression, but I don't think it's in the spirit of the Federation to oppress its people with summary executions and death squads (not in character at all). So there is probably a very strong black market, and they probably use latinum and the Federation looks the other way.

[Darth Wong]

Under that scheme, replicator rations would effectively be money. They just wouldn't call it money for propaganda reasons, to remind everyone how superior they are to outsiders.

What would Compulsive Gambler Pete do? He could gamble away his replicator rations, so he has nothing to eat. So how's Pete going to eat? No problem, Vinnie from Chicago will loan him some replicator rations, at a nice interest rate. Oops, sounding a little like money, isn't it? And Mark over here wants to put on a big party in six months for all his friends with 20 different kinds of food and all sorts of decorations and some kiddie rides in the backyard, but that will use up a month's worth of replicator rations. What to do? No problem, we'll set up an agency that will help you store up replicator rations for a big future purchase, since you don't want to deal with Vinnie. But we won't call it a "bank", because that's capitalist. No, we'll call it ... a ... replicator ration storage bureau. And with all of those replicator rations in the bank, er ... replicator ration storage bureau, we have enough liquidity to help other people do this, and that, and ... you get the picture.

It's MONEY.

[Alien-Carrot]

Theres also the theory that, while the federation has a cash economy, the individual people who embrase the ideals of the federation do not STRIVE TO COLLET MONEY OR MATERIAL THINGS.

picard said almost exactly that in FC.

[Lord Revan]

Again nice propaganda but in practice we see that it doesn't work (there's loads of stuff in peoples rooms that wouldn't make sence unless they "collected material things").

We must remember that just because a Starfleet member (or just federation citizen) says something doesn't mean it's automatically true.

[harbringer]

The problem with any colony in federation space is it will be defended .... even if - IF they only use a frigate or something light they will have thousands of battledroids. As many trek ships cant even hit something like the defiant or a jem hadar raider this would be an insurmountable problem. Secondly as the nemoideans are paranoid they would have battleships or at least core ships present to get them out of dodge if nothing else.

The TF has such incredible technology no other trading group could match them even if they keep all the best stuff for themselves. If they only traded in metals and so on and traded bacta for it they would dominate the market. Let alone the way their ships could shift cargo would be invaluble to any AQ power.


Should the miraculous happen and AQ trops get on the ground they will face total annihilation by well equiped droid armies.

And lastly as the TF proved they can and will use any means to get what they want they would be no better than the empire.

[Darth Wong]

Theres also the theory that, while the federation has a cash economy, the individual people who embrase the ideals of the federation do not STRIVE TO COLLET MONEY OR MATERIAL THINGS.

picard said almost exactly that in FC.

I hate to break it to you, but "theory" and "propaganda" are different words, with different meanings. You used the wrong one.

[Aaron]

Theres also the theory that, while the federation has a cash economy, the individual people who embrase the ideals of the federation do not STRIVE TO COLLET MONEY OR MATERIAL THINGS.

picard said almost exactly that in FC.

As Lord Revan has pointed out, in practice we see a very different picture. Kirk collected antiques, Sisko had all sorts of stuff on his walls, Work had Klingon weapons and art around his quarters and there was a DS9 crew member that collected weapons from different races.

[Darth Wong]

Do Trekkies honestly believe that all of the inequities of modern society are caused by "the system" and have nothing at all to do with human nature itself? Karl Marx's greatest (albeit not only) mistake was his failure to account for human nature, and that's something he shared with Trekkies, or so it seems. People just aren't built that way; the idea of totally eliminating the hoarding and possessive instincts from human beings is completely preposterous. Sure, you can get the occasional person to take a vow of poverty, but that doesn't mean you could actually change the nature of the whole species.

[Aaron]

Ghetto Edit: even Picard had a bunch of art and stuff related to his hobbies around his quarters, so it looks like he spouted the rhetoric but didn't buy it.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Do Trekkies honestly believe that all of the inequities of modern society are caused by "the system" and have nothing at all to do with human nature itself? Karl Marx's greatest (albeit not only) mistake was his failure to account for human nature, and that's something he shared with Trekkies, or so it seems. People just aren't built that way; the idea of totally eliminating the hoarding and possessive instincts from human beings is completely preposterous. Sure, you can get the occasional person to take a vow of poverty, but that doesn't mean you could actually change the nature of the whole species.

But Wong! havn't you heared TNG? Humans HAVE "evolved" as a species and no longer have all those dirty desiers of Greed and a Possesive nature!