Windu out the window

[Tsyroc]

Clearly the Star Wars episode of Robot Chicken shows Mace belly flopping on the ground looking pretty much dead.

[Havok]

amazing, i post a OMG WINDU COULD HAVE LIVED thread, and not only dont i get flamed, a couple of people kind of agree with me. i wonder what else i could get away with here. mabye this.

Palpatine never died at the death star, he survived the 100 meter fall, made it to a shuttle, evacuated, and went to live with his grandson.

The clones that revived only THOUGHT they were re-embodiments of the original. And soon jacen will figure this out an seek out palpy as a master.
Then Ben will track them down to jabbas palace on tattooine, have a massive lightsabre duel, cut off jacens arms, throw him in the scarlac pit, (which bites off both his legs on the way down), and most of his outer skin is digested off befor palpy rescues him and rebuilds his body to resemble a sith war driod. Jacen is then dubbed.. Darth Recycled

OMG, THE HORRIBLE HORRENDOUSNESS OF THIS HORRIFYING THOUGHT IS


But then, i guess it is hard to show sarcasm on furoms, even when you say stuff like...

crawl down in a sewer where he belongs, and eek out a living as king or the Coura-rats?

So you are saying you started a thread and topic just to be sarcastic in the OP in hopes of getting flamed and not actually adding anything to the board? Nice.

[Battlehymn Republic]

The clones that revived only THOUGHT they were re-embodiments of the original.

Actually, I like that. Wankatine wasn't the original all along!

[Connor MacLeod]

We've seen Jedi survive long-distance freefall descents crashing onto solid objects in the movies (Anakin onto Zam Wessell's speeder, nevermind holding onto it while it's travelign at speed - both of which are feats involving thousands of gees worth of acceleration over very short periods of time) Anakin did that when a Padawan, and Obi-Wan was roughly equal to him by the end. Arguably Mace would be somewhere in that range too (Yoda would be far more than that, and I suspect he had a major drop as well.)

If Mace could summon the needed power to do it? He Might have survived, in theory. However, its clear that he did die, so whether he could or not is irreelvant.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The acceleration is the derivative of instantaneous velocity with respect to time (or the second derivative of position with respect to time). I don't think Anakin's grasping of the speeder involved multiple acceleration events, so unless you're refering to "jerk" (derivative of acceleration with respect to time or the third derivative of position with respect to time) which I don't think you are, Anakin's fall and landing on the speeder refers to a single accelerative event of very high magnitude considering the frailty of the average human's body with respect to such high stress. A longer duration of the accelerative event would actually be more impressive - would we not be more impressed by a person able to tolerate 100 Gs over 10 minutes or 1 second? If you just mean the intensity of Anakin's change in velocity with respect to such a brief interval of time, then "over a very short period of time" is redundant - the briefness of the event is expressed in the magnitude of acceleration. As it is, the Jedi Knight is obviously capable of enduring a multi-thousand G acceleration event in the span of less than a second. This can only be explained through their use of the Force to protect the fragile body from direct interaction (similarly to the heat dissipation requirements of the blast door breaching aboard TFS Profiteer, the duel on Mustafar, Vader's blaster bolt deflection, etc.). Presumably the lightsaber is a prefered weapon because of the sheer power output it can deliver, probably amounting to an insurmountable feat in direct contact by most Force adepts' abilities.

[Crown]

This is the thread in question; Jedi do NOT die in big falls. The equations go through a number of iterations (some for altering mistakes on my part, and others for adjusting very conservative assumptions to properly reflect data more accurate to what we see).

So if Mace did die (and for the record, I'm in the 'yes he did' camp), then it wasn't from the fall, but rather from being pre-tenderised by Sidious ... if that makes sense.

The acceleration is the derivative of instantaneous velocity with respect to time (or the second derivative of position with respect to time). I don't think Anakin's grasping of the speeder involved multiple acceleration events, so unless you're refering to "jerk" (derivative of acceleration with respect to time or the third derivative of position with respect to time) which I don't think you are

He is, and he is correct. Anakin's fall can be analysed as the change in his velocity in the y-axis (vertical), and his change in velocity in the x-axis (horizontal). You could, I suppose represent these both as one vector, but the equations weren't brought to that point.

Anakin's fall and landing on the speeder refers to a single accelerative event of very high magnitude considering the frailty of the average human's body with respect to such high stress.

As pointed in the thread, the G's experienced by Anakin in that scene surpassed (by many orders of magnitude) what an F1 driver experienced when he crashed his car into a wall. The driver was incased in a carbon fiber cockpit, was strapped in, and was wearing a helmet and had to be hospitalised. Anakin was wearing robes. He should have went splat.

A longer duration of the accelerative event would actually be more impressive - would we not be more impressed by a person able to tolerate 100 Gs over 10 minutes or 1 second?

Are you saying you wouldn't be impressed by somone landing (spread eagled no less), on a New York sidewalk after jumping off the Empire State building, and then getting up and walking away? Since that is exactly what Anakin did. While I agree being able to survive high G's for longer is more impressive than high G's for short peroids at a time, lets keep this in perspective. Anakin should have died doing that.

If you just mean the intensity of Anakin's change in velocity with respect to such a brief interval of time, then "over a very short period of time" is redundant - the briefness of the event is expressed in the magnitude of acceleration.

Not in the way he phrased his post it isn't. It's clarifing the event in question. Had he phrased it as 'Anakin's instantenous Delta V, over a short period of time', then you would have a point. He said; 'both of which are feats involving thousands of gees worth of acceleration over very short periods of time' in no way is the 'very short periods of time' a redundant statement he's just underlining the event in question for clarrification.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Since I said the feat was incredible, involved very extreme accelerations that would've splattered any normal person, and therefore resorted to the Force as an explanation, where are we in disagreement? It seems to me Connor is saying that duration of the accelerative event is part of its impressiveness, when a longer duration of equal accelerative magnitude would be more impressive. Obviously the event in of itself, the magnitude of which accounts for the briefness of the change in velocity (being the definition of acceleration) is very impressive and requires superhuman qualities to explain Anakin's survival.

[Surlethe]

It seems to me Connor is saying that duration of the accelerative event is part of its impressiveness, when a longer duration of equal accelerative magnitude would be more impressive.

The duration of an accelerative event is indeed part of its impressiveness, and you're correct in saying that a longer duration of equal acceleration would be even more impressive. I'm not sure why that's relevant, though: for an object decelerating to zero from falling at terminal velocity, ∆v is constant. So a = ∆v/∆t, and the acceleration is actually inversely proportional to the duration of the event; when the acceleration is inversely proportional to the duration, so is the impulse -- i.e., ma/∆t. And it's withstanding the impulse that is so impressive here.

[Molyneux]

It would be horribly incompetent of Sidious to not have an elite squad of troops tracking Windu as he fell, to make sure he died. That said...

I almost wrote a fanfic about Mace Windu's daughter attacking (my version of) the new Jedi Order, after her father - addled and crippled by the lightning and fall, and mad from the combined damage and pain of betrayal and seeing his world crumble around him - raised her in the depths of Coruscant's slums to avenge him against Skywalker. Never went anywhere, though.

I will say, though, that unless I'm shown a dead body: Kit Fisto was horribly injured, but left Coruscant and went home to raise a school of tadpoles.

[Ghost Rider]

I will say, though, that unless I'm shown a dead body: Kit Fisto was horribly injured, but left Coruscant and went home to raise a school of tadpoles.

In the novel they mention Kit Fisto's head quite apart from his body.

[Cykeisme]

The acceleration is the derivative of instantaneous velocity with respect to time (or the second derivative of position with respect to time). I don't think Anakin's grasping of the speeder involved multiple acceleration events, so unless you're refering to "jerk" (derivative of acceleration with respect to time or the third derivative of position with respect to time) which I don't think you are, Anakin's fall and landing on the speeder refers to a single accelerative event of very high magnitude considering the frailty of the average human's body with respect to such high stress. A longer duration of the accelerative event would actually be more impressive - would we not be more impressed by a person able to tolerate 100 Gs over 10 minutes or 1 second? If you just mean the intensity of Anakin's change in velocity with respect to such a brief interval of time, then "over a very short period of time" is redundant - the briefness of the event is expressed in the magnitude of acceleration. As it is, the Jedi Knight is obviously capable of enduring a multi-thousand G acceleration event in the span of less than a second. This can only be explained through their use of the Force to protect the fragile body from direct interaction (similarly to the heat dissipation requirements of the blast door breaching aboard TFS Profiteer, the duel on Mustafar, Vader's blaster bolt deflection, etc.). Presumably the lightsaber is a prefered weapon because of the sheer power output it can deliver, probably amounting to an insurmountable feat in direct contact by most Force adepts' abilities.

That's a very good point. A Jedi can protect themselves from massive acceleration over an instant, but what about a greater impulse, from similar magnitude of acceleration sustained over a greater period of time?

Assuming we can view a user's pool of Force use ability as a "mana bar" like in many Star Wars computer games (before you jump on me, Dooku's increasing fatigue when trying to hold off Anakin in the RotS novelization actually supports this, albeit in less a definitive and graphically representative way than a bar/meter), the magnitude of acceleration would determine the rate at which their "Force meter" would be drained.. but prolonging the acceleration would determine how long the drainage would continue to occur. Thus in effect, the total mana lost would be directly proportional to the duration of the said acceleration.. likely emptying them out, at which point the Jedi's organic body behaves in much the same manner as an ordinary being's.

That may not have been relevant to the discussion, but this is: Windu was probably already emptied out from the fight and the damage, and wouldn't have had any juice to spend.


In addition, it's often said that breaking a Jedi's concentration can leave them unable to call on the Force entirely, rendering them as vulnerable as a normal being. Descriptions of Grievous' strategy in combat against many Jedi hinged around his ability to disrupt their concentration simply using intimidation, surprise and fear.
Despite our stalwart badass motherfucking Jedi's considerable prowess, badassery and motherfuckingness, actual physical harm -especially of such a serious nature- would probably have an even more profound effect.


The fact of the death itself is a certainty not in dispute, but a combination of these two factors easily explains how he ended up quite dead, and perhaps will assist in allaying any lingering discontent with the outcome of the event.

I will say, though, that unless I'm shown a dead body: Kit Fisto was horribly injured, but left Coruscant and went home to raise a school of tadpoles.

In the novel they mention Kit Fisto's head quite apart from his body.

B-b-but Ghost Rider, we have virtually no information on Nautolan physiology! Perhaps all their vital organs are located in their head. And, in a matter relevantly pertaining to the postulation raised by Molyneux, perhaps their reproductive organs as well.

[Alien-Carrot]

OMG, I have this image of Fistos head using its tentacls to crawl to the nearest spaceport, get a ticket home, and make hot, wet, head love to some random nautilid.

[Ghost Rider]

I will say, though, that unless I'm shown a dead body: Kit Fisto was horribly injured, but left Coruscant and went home to raise a school of tadpoles.

In the novel they mention Kit Fisto's head quite apart from his body.

B-b-but Ghost Rider, we have virtually no information on Nautolan physiology! Perhaps all their vital organs are located in their head. And, in a matter relevantly pertaining to the postulation raised by Molyneux, perhaps their reproductive organs as well.

Psh.

He's Palpatine's 15 pounder in the bowling alley.

[Murazor]

B-b-but Ghost Rider, we have virtually no information on Nautolan physiology! Perhaps all their vital organs are located in their head. And, in a matter relevantly pertaining to the postulation raised by Molyneux, perhaps their reproductive organs as well.

Well... This worked for the Icarii. Why not for the Nautolans too?

And now that I consider it... how the fuck did Selestrine talk without a respiratory system after being beheaded?

[Molyneux]

I will say, though, that unless I'm shown a dead body: Kit Fisto was horribly injured, but left Coruscant and went home to raise a school of tadpoles.

In the novel they mention Kit Fisto's head quite apart from his body.

B-b-but Ghost Rider, we have virtually no information on Nautolan physiology! Perhaps all their vital organs are located in their head. And, in a matter relevantly pertaining to the postulation raised by Molyneux, perhaps their reproductive organs as well.

Psh.

He's Palpatine's 15 pounder in the bowling alley.

In the novel, they mention Kit Fisto being beheaded. They also mention his disembodied head sitting on a table to greet Anakin when he comes in, don't they?

In the film, all that we see is him getting a cut across the midsection; he shouts and falls over. I don't think he's ever seen on-camera again after that.

[Ghost Rider]

B-b-but Ghost Rider, we have virtually no information on Nautolan physiology! Perhaps all their vital organs are located in their head. And, in a matter relevantly pertaining to the postulation raised by Molyneux, perhaps their reproductive organs as well.

Psh.

He's Palpatine's 15 pounder in the bowling alley.

In the novel, they mention Kit Fisto being beheaded. They also mention his disembodied head sitting on a table to greet Anakin when he comes in, don't they?

In the film, all that we see is him getting a cut across the midsection; he shouts and falls over. I don't think he's ever seen on-camera again after that.

Yes, Anakin notes did he think about death being humorous even in death, and then walked in to see the Windu/Palpatine scene.

Which then allows us to follow canon perfectly, since we rely on novels to fill in holes we do not always see. Stover made no contradictions to the scene flow so, unless there is proof other wise; he's dead.

[Anguirus]

Actually, I don't see when Palaptine had time to run back and chop the guy's head off in the movie. Stover's version of the scene is quite good, but does contradict the higher canon of the movie.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, I don't see when Palaptine had time to run back and chop the guy's head off in the movie. Stover's version of the scene is quite good, but does contradict the higher canon of the movie.

We saw every swing? Because that is the point, we don't thus...the novel fills in the HOLES. Unless there is a complete contradiction, we take it as evidence, not throw it out.

The point is he made a few slashes, killed some masters, then went after Windu. The difference of the scene are what happened prior with the recording.

And like I said before, unless you can demonstrate that the novel for Fisto's death contradicted the movie, it stands as what it is.

[Anguirus]

And like I said before, unless you can demonstrate that the novel for Fisto's death contradicted the movie, it stands as what it is.

Fisto's death is book: took place in Palpatine's office. Fisto was beheaded, head landed on desk.

Fisto's death in movie: takes place in Palpatine's war room. Virtually bisected by lightsabre, immdiately falls. Palpatine's fight with Windu takes him out of the room and into his office. There is a cutaway, but before and after the cutaway he is embroiled in an intense fight with Windu.

I suppose it could possibly be argued that Palpatine blasted Windu away with the Force for just long enough to defile Fisto's prone corpse, drag it to his office, and deposit the head on his desk for long enough so that Anakin sees it as he rushes to the battle. However, since in the movie version the final battle moves TO his office instead of FROM his office, and we clearly see in the subsequent scene with Palps and Anakin that there is no head on Palpatine's desk...the two series of events are irreconcilable without a truly absurd amount of hoop jumping (like Palpatine having two offices within a few meters of each other perhaps, and Anakin had to pass through one in order to get to the other? But wait...in the movie Anakin parks his speeder while in the film he leaps in through the office window...so I guess Anakin parks, got out, wandered through the halls a bit, then leapt back to his speeder and then flew over to Palpatine's second office in time to see Fisto's head?)

Anyway, if Palpatine really did risk his own life in order to violate Fisto's corpse, one wonders what Fisto did to him. Kept him in line too long at the men's room did he? Fisto would also have had to smile at some point after his death, unless Palpatine did that too.

[Ghost Rider]

And like I said before, unless you can demonstrate that the novel for Fisto's death contradicted the movie, it stands as what it is.

Fisto's death is book: took place in Palpatine's office. Fisto was beheaded, head landed on desk.

Fisto's death in movie: takes place in Palpatine's war room. Virtually bisected by lightsabre, immdiately falls. Palpatine's fight with Windu takes him out of the room and into his office. There is a cutaway, but before and after the cutaway he is embroiled in an intense fight with Windu.

I suppose it could possibly be argued that Palpatine blasted Windu away with the Force for just long enough to defile Fisto's prone corpse, drag it to his office, and deposit the head on his desk for long enough so that Anakin sees it as he rushes to the battle. However, since in the movie version the final battle moves TO his office instead of FROM his office, and we clearly see in the subsequent scene with Palps and Anakin that there is no head on Palpatine's desk...the two series of events are irreconcilable without a truly absurd amount of hoop jumping (like Palpatine having two offices within a few meters of each other perhaps, and Anakin had to pass through one in order to get to the other? But wait...in the movie Anakin parks his speeder while in the film he leaps in through the office window...so I guess Anakin parks, got out, wandered through the halls a bit, then leapt back to his speeder and then flew over to Palpatine's second office in time to see Fisto's head?)

Anyway, if Palpatine really did risk his own life in order to violate Fisto's corpse, one wonders what Fisto did to him. Kept him in line too long at the men's room did he? Fisto would also have had to smile at some point after his death, unless Palpatine did that too.

Amazingly, you demonstrae nothing with all that.

We see him bisected, and you're telling me this contradicts the thought of him getting beheaded in lost second or two that the movie doesn't show?

Because right now, you're not grasping what it means to CONTRADICT what is shown.

[Molyneux]

And like I said before, unless you can demonstrate that the novel for Fisto's death contradicted the movie, it stands as what it is.

Fisto's death is book: took place in Palpatine's office. Fisto was beheaded, head landed on desk.

Fisto's death in movie: takes place in Palpatine's war room. Virtually bisected by lightsabre, immdiately falls. Palpatine's fight with Windu takes him out of the room and into his office. There is a cutaway, but before and after the cutaway he is embroiled in an intense fight with Windu.

I suppose it could possibly be argued that Palpatine blasted Windu away with the Force for just long enough to defile Fisto's prone corpse, drag it to his office, and deposit the head on his desk for long enough so that Anakin sees it as he rushes to the battle. However, since in the movie version the final battle moves TO his office instead of FROM his office, and we clearly see in the subsequent scene with Palps and Anakin that there is no head on Palpatine's desk...the two series of events are irreconcilable without a truly absurd amount of hoop jumping (like Palpatine having two offices within a few meters of each other perhaps, and Anakin had to pass through one in order to get to the other? But wait...in the movie Anakin parks his speeder while in the film he leaps in through the office window...so I guess Anakin parks, got out, wandered through the halls a bit, then leapt back to his speeder and then flew over to Palpatine's second office in time to see Fisto's head?)

Anyway, if Palpatine really did risk his own life in order to violate Fisto's corpse, one wonders what Fisto did to him. Kept him in line too long at the men's room did he? Fisto would also have had to smile at some point after his death, unless Palpatine did that too.

Amazingly, you demonstrae nothing with all that.

We see him bisected, and you're telling me this contradicts the thought of him getting beheaded in lost second or two that the movie doesn't show?

Because right now, you're not grasping what it means to CONTRADICT what is shown.

Apparently you're unaware that Kit Fisto's cousin had a short but bright career in film work.

[Ghost Rider]

Apparently you're unaware that Kit Fisto's cousin had a short but bright career in film work.

He too will be a bowling ball for the Sith .

[2000AD]

Pffh, that ain;t Kit Fastos couin. He's the little squid kid that gets born in Men in Black.