Morphine Overdose as a method of execution?

[Mr Bean]

Something that I keep coming back to when it comes to the various execution methods that are used. All of them seem damn wasteful. Gas-Chamber? The least messy but expensive to set up and run. Lethal injection? Clean, but they use a cocktail of drugs and sometimes people have stronger than average resistance to one of the drugs. Firing squad? It is cheap, but we can't get away with using it in today's society Plus the psychological stress on the firing squad members.

Which brings me to morphine, from all the medical research I've read, OD on Morphine is rather pleasant, you get a high, you get knocked out, your heart stops and you die. But already being unconscious, you simply never wake up from your own rather limited personal experience.

So why has something along these lines never been used, is there some survivability factor? Does it not work on certain people? Or am I seriously the first person to think that OD people on painkillers handles all the possible issues of ethics and pain and suffering and what-not.

I don't think it's the latter, but Google turns up only anti-death sites when I use it.

[Shinova]

War on Drugs, maybe.

[General Zod]

War on Drugs, maybe.

Since morphine is regularly used in hospitals, I doubt this. Although I'm not seeing what makes morphine any more effective than the cocktail solution if resistance is the issue.

[Panzer Grenadier]

I've had the same thought as you actually, but I have never really investigated the reasons why this is not used. Like you said it is pretty much a burst of euphoria followed by lights out so its shouldn't be painful at all. To be honest though I dont really know many people who are against the death penalty just because it might cause suffering to the victim. Most people object to the mere fact that the state is taking a life, in which cause morphine would be no different than the other forms you mentioned.

[Mr Bean]

War on Drugs, maybe.

Since morphine is regularly used in hospitals, I doubt this. Although I'm not seeing what makes morphine any more effective than the cocktail solution if resistance is the issue.

The problem is the Cocktail does several different things, one's a painkiller, one's a motor control suppressant, and one's the actual kill drug. If your resistant to any one part of that equation you'll suffer some serious effects.

If the painkiller fails you be in horrible pain and then your heart will stop, pretty much replicating a natural heart attack.

If the mortor control agent fails then you can be mobile as your heart is dieing, the lethal agent to my knowledge has not been resisted since it's so damn lethal even in tiny doses.

But Morphine you don't need that, you OD them, by a massive amount. If they are resistant? Well MORE MORPHINE! You give even under an over-dose it WILL knock them out. So if you fuck up and their still alive, you can simply just keep applying more until the heart stops.

Or so I think, based on my own limited medical knowledge, hence this whole topic to begin with.

[General Zod]

Or so I think, based on my own limited medical knowledge, hence this whole topic to begin with.

How many actual cases of resistance are there to the cocktail? I have a hard time imagining they'd be any more numerous than the amount of prisoners with a strong morphine resistance.

[Mr Bean]

How many actual cases of resistance are there to the cocktail? I have a hard time imagining they'd be any more numerous than the amount of prisoners with a strong morphine resistance.

The issue is, Lethal injection is currently using several different drugs in various doses. If you fuck up a few of them, it results in an inmate who dies in horrible screaming pain.

You can't just inject "lethal agent X" because if you do, the inmate dies screaming, or choking on his own blood, whatever. I don't mean to suggest they are common for them to fuck up, only that by the current lethal injection method, it's possible. Which is why I'm bringing up the whole, "why do they use hell of alot of morphine?

I'm familiar with morphine myself because of a family condition that makes me prone to kidney stones, and the two times I've had to be hauled off due to pain/sudden onset issues they doped me up pretty well with morphine the second time because of miscommunication between Airforce Doctor's and Naval medical personnel I ended up getting a double dose of morphine and knocked the fuck out. As a result of me waking up four hours later having no idea where or was, or what was happing I looked into exactly what happened to me, medically, and questioned my primary care doctor about morphine's effects as an over-dose(I got twice what I should have but that was well below a morphine overdose limit.)

Between talking with my doctor and Internet searching I've found the effects of Morphine OD'ing to be strait forward, get to much, you lose consciousness, get even more and you risk your body simply shutting down, get even more and your heart will stop and you will die.

Which is the reason for this topic, why use a fancy drug cocktail for lethal injection when pure Morphine OD seems like text book definition of "painless death"

[General Zod]

The issue is, Lethal injection is currently using several different drugs in various doses. If you fuck up a few of them, it results in an inmate who dies in horrible screaming pain.

That's the thing though. They have trained personnel to mix the cocktails for these drugs. If they're used effectively enough with minimal problems, then there's no reason to switch. So the question becomes are there enough mistakes made when mixing like you're describing to justify finding an alternative?

Between talking with my doctor and Internet searching I've found the effects of Morphine OD'ing to be strait forward, get to much, you lose consciousness, get even more and you risk your body simply shutting down, get even more and your heart will stop and you will die.

The problem with this is morphine is one of the most frequently abused opiates next to heroine. There's a sufficient amount of people addicted to it that you would have to significantly increase the dosage to overcome this, when you can just use the fixed dosage of the cocktail for the desired result far more effectively.

[Plekhanov]

Which is the reason for this topic, why use a fancy drug cocktail for lethal injection when pure Morphine OD seems like text book definition of "painless death"

Maybe because there seems to be some kind of fetish in the US for inventing overly complex execution methods preferably using as much unnecessary technology as possible hence the electric chair, gas chamber & cocktail method of lethal injection.

The electric chair and gas chamber in particular are both ludicrously complex and far less humane than simply hanging or shooting somebody there's no rational reason for using them.

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, the drug they use as an anesthetic, sodium pentathol, is some wicked juju. That's the stuff they use in anesthesia when they want to saw open a persons chest and do heart surgery without waking them up. In fact, if you give a person a big enough dose, they go into a medical induced coma and can be lethal in its own right. I believe it's delivered first and allowed to take effect before the pancuronium bromide in the lethal injection process and delivered in a megadose (one large enough to make body weight and relative resistance irrelevant).

A megadose of the sodium pentathol is going to tank anyone and they aren't going to feel it because of how effectively it shuts down the nervous system to stimulus. The reason they give the pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride isn't just to kill the person, but kill them in a reasonable timeframe. The sort of dose of sodium pentathol they give condemned prisoners will kill them eventually anyway, but it will take longer.

In fact, that it's lethal in high doses is why it should be administered by a skilled anesthesiologist. Of course, that isn't a problem when you are executing someone.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

That's the thing though. They have trained personnel to mix the cocktails for these drugs. If they're used effectively enough with minimal problems, then there's no reason to switch. So the question becomes are there enough mistakes made when mixing like you're describing to justify finding an alternative?

Well, there's enough issues with it that it's making the news and generating a good deal of controversy. Apparently studies are showing that a lot of the time, the pain-suppressors aren't actually suppressing the pain. Basically the inmates are often dying in agony, but can't show it because the muscle suppressant is paralyzing them.

I'd say this alone is more than enough reason to look into alternatives.

The problem with this is morphine is one of the most frequently abused opiates next to heroine. There's a sufficient amount of people addicted to it that you would have to significantly increase the dosage to overcome this, when you can just use the fixed dosage of the cocktail for the desired result far more effectively.

So? The important thing is that the person being injected isn't suffering horrible agony. Unless there's sort desperate nationwide shortage of morphine, I don't see why simply increasing the dosage until heart and brainwave activity reads zero isn't a viable option. A person can be resistant as hell to it, it still doesn't mean that a high enough dose won't still kill them, with much less pain than the current methods.

[General Zod]

Well, there's enough issues with it that it's making the news and generating a good deal of controversy. Apparently studies are showing that a lot of the time, the pain-suppressors aren't actually suppressing the pain. Basically the inmates are often dying in agony, but can't show it because the muscle suppressant is paralyzing them.

What studies?

So? The important thing is that the person being injected isn't suffering horrible agony. Unless there's sort desperate nationwide shortage of morphine, I don't see why simply increasing the dosage until heart and brainwave activity reads zero isn't a viable option. A person can be resistant as hell to it, it still doesn't mean that a high enough dose won't still kill them, with much less pain than the current methods.

I suppose the issue here is which one is quicker and more effective. If you're making them OD on morphine, it might work, but it could take considerably longer to do the job and may not work at all if you don't have enough supplies of morphine on hand if someone has a sufficiently high resistance. Although considering that the end goal is to kill them, usually individuals who have committed incredibly heinous offenses, I'm not sure why we should go through so much trouble of ensuring it's completely painless.

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, there's enough issues with it that it's making the news and generating a good deal of controversy. Apparently studies are showing that a lot of the time, the pain-suppressors aren't actually suppressing the pain. Basically the inmates are often dying in agony, but can't show it because the muscle suppressant is paralyzing them.

I'd say this alone is more than enough reason to look into alternatives.

Which studies are those? Besides, how exactly do they know they are dying in agony if they aren't showing evidence? I've heard this before, but I've never heard of a megadose of sodium pentathol failing to block nervous response or that they can tell they are actually dying in agony.

So? The important thing is that the person being injected isn't suffering horrible agony. Unless there's sort desperate nationwide shortage of morphine, I don't see why simply increasing the dosage until heart and brainwave activity reads zero isn't a viable option. A person can be resistant as hell to it, it still doesn't mean that a high enough dose won't still kill them, with much less pain than the current methods.

Are they actually suffering horrible agony? Really? Sodium pentathol is so effective that they use in surgery as a general anesthetic, in very carefully measured doses so that it wears off after a specific period of time. In the case of executions, they use a much more massive dose, one that is lethal in its own right.

[mr friendly guy]

I am also interested in how they come to the conclusion people are in pain given the paralytic agent stops them expressing it. I can only hypothesize they did it on animals where they gave the equivalent dose for that species of animal without the paralytic agent.

In answer to the OP, I have seen it a few times where people are given morphine and that is too much for them, and their respiration gets effected. Generally even someone loaded up with naltrexone (an opiate antagonist, ie one of the "anti-heroin" drugs) can overdose on heroin (which like morphine acts on said opiate / opiod receptor). So I don't see why one can't just load up with as much morphine as required.

The only contraindication I can see if its someone who is allergic to morphine, then its not a nice way to go if its a severe reaction precipitating anaphylatic shock.

Another suggestion, is why not use barbituates. These class of drug is used in euthanasia in countries which allow it. From memory they have a low thereapeutic index, meaning that the difference between fatal and thereapeutic doses is small. Which is one of the reasons they have fallen out of favour compared to benzodiazepines (eg valium). Given that its not used frequently these days like morphine, I doubt many people would have built up a resistance to it.

[General Zod]

Another suggestion, is why not use barbituates. These class of drug is used in euthanasia in countries which allow it. From memory they have a low thereapeutic index, meaning that the difference between fatal and thereapeutic doses is small. Which is one of the reasons they have fallen out of favour compared to benzodiazepines (eg valium). Given that its not used frequently these days like morphine, I doubt many people would have built up a resistance to it.

Uh, they use barbituates in lethal injection cocktails already. Specifically, Sodium Thiopental.

[Gil Hamilton]

I think that it's because if sodium pentathol is improperly administered (usually a too low dose), pancuronium can cause it to participate and not work, which has caused some law suits, since pancuronium isn't a painkiller. However, the cause is improper application leading to too small a dose compared to the pancuronium used, which is only a problem when they are trying to give a carefully measured dose. That isn't true of executions, were they give a massive dose of the sodium thiopental, one large enough that there is no way it's going to fall out of the blood stream.

[mr friendly guy]

Another suggestion, is why not use barbituates. These class of drug is used in euthanasia in countries which allow it. From memory they have a low thereapeutic index, meaning that the difference between fatal and thereapeutic doses is small. Which is one of the reasons they have fallen out of favour compared to benzodiazepines (eg valium). Given that its not used frequently these days like morphine, I doubt many people would have built up a resistance to it.

Uh, they use barbituates in lethal injection cocktails already. Specifically, Sodium Thiopental.

Hmm. Well if they are worried about the "humane" angle then perhaps they should just use barbituates alone. From my understanding its the potassium that causes the pain, but I can understand the need to get it over and done with, hence the potassium.

[Gil Hamilton]

Hmm. Well if they are worried about the "humane" angle then perhaps they should just use barbituates alone. From my understanding its the potassium that causes the pain, but I can understand the need to get it over and done with, hence the potassium.

They can, but it takes a long time. That's why they use the potassium chloride in executions.