Empire -v- Landsrad ALL OUT GROUND WAR

[NecronLord]

Just thinking of dune shielding's claimed abilities to defy CoM. I somehow got the image of an AT AT treading on a dune trooper and stopping dead.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Ground combat? Galactic Empire all the way. The AT-AT alone outranges and outclasses every tanks, quads, and other combat vehicles the Dune universe has. Talk about 17 km weapon range...

Frankly speaking, I don't know much about Dune ground combat capability. But from the movies and games alone, their ground combat capability is about the same as 20th century armies (except for palace shielding, but they can be breached by NUKES, while Rebels theatre shield can withstand orbital bombardment from a flotilla of Star Destroyers).

Well, the new Dune movie (No, not the one starring Sting and Max Von Snydow. It's the new one. I don't remember the title but it takes about FOUR CDs. A damn long movie. Anyone remind me the title?) shows that Dune Universe's ground combat capability is quite PATHETIC. Come on! Those feared Sardaukars cannot stop a bunch of fremen armed with KNIVES, for chrissake. Today's GPMGs could do the job without sweat.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Wouldn't it stand to reason that he would know all plans of attack ahead of time?
Would technological and firepower superiority count against infallible, and complete intellegence of an enemy's plans?

Knowledge about enemy's plan and moves could only help when the firepower between two sides is about the same. When disparity in firepower is too great, perfect intelligence won't do any help at all.

[Typhonis 1]

True this is just ground combat but the Death Star shows the tewchnological disparity between the two groups how man 120 mile satalites does the Duneverse have that can move under there own power .Also Combat robots would shock the Duneites AIs of all colors would tick them off roya;lly since the Butlerian Jihad

[Frank Hipper]

True this is just ground combat but the Death Star shows the tewchnological disparity between the two groups how man 120 mile satalites does the Duneverse have that can move under there own power .Also Combat robots would shock the Duneites AIs of all colors would tick them off roya;lly since the Butlerian Jihad

Al Dhanab's world is an artificial planet. Not mobile, however.
There is no AI in the Dune universe at all. War droids would most likely produce a suicide bomber like frenzy in Dune populations. They'd hurl their babies at them with their last breath.

[Jadeite]

True this is just ground combat but the Death Star shows the tewchnological disparity between the two groups how man 120 mile satalites does the Duneverse have that can move under there own power

Ahem, Korona Station over Richese (not mobile, but pretty damn big), and Guild Heighliners (more than several kilometers long)

[Typhonis 1]

True about the artficial planet but is it self mobile .Also how large IS a highliner?

[Jadeite]

Also how large IS a highliner?

Heres a passage from House Corrino on p393.

"Unannounced and unexpected, an armada of Guild ships appeared in the skies over the desert world. Five Heighliners, each more than twenty kilometers long, took their places in orbit, within sight of the Harkonnen capital of Carthag."

Apparently Heighliners have an EMP type weapon system:

"From overhead, the armada of Guild ships broadcast intense pulses that disabled circuitry and navigational systems on all vessels in Carthag spaceport. In the Baron's residency, glowglobes dimmed and then brightened as they were bombarded. Some fizzled and exploded, showering plaz fragments on his head."

The Empire apparently also has a navy, because it describes Imperial battle cruisers, corvettes, marauders, and bombers descending from the Heighliners.

[Crazy_Vasey]

..Frankly speaking, I don't know much about Dune ground combat capability. But from the movies and games alone, their ground combat capability is about the same as 20th century armies (except for palace shielding, but they can be breached by NUKES, while Rebels theatre shield can withstand orbital bombardment from a flotilla of Star Destroyers).

There's no way in hell the Dune games are part of the real canon. Their relation to the novels is in name only, especially the newest one Emperor: Battle for Dune.

The films level of canon is also very much debatable seeing as it flat out invents new things for the sake of it. Those sonic weapons for example just weren't in the novels.

Anyway nothing is shown anywhere that could take an AT-AT or even an AT-ST. This is a mismatch. There's shit all real evidence on their space forces as well unless you delve into the prequels which I never ever will. KJA. Ugh.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

..Frankly speaking, I don't know much about Dune ground combat capability. But from the movies and games alone, their ground combat capability is about the same as 20th century armies (except for palace shielding, but they can be breached by NUKES, while Rebels theatre shield can withstand orbital bombardment from a flotilla of Star Destroyers).

There's no way in hell the Dune games are part of the real canon. Their relation to the novels is in name only, especially the newest one Emperor: Battle for Dune.

The films level of canon is also very much debatable seeing as it flat out invents new things for the sake of it. Those sonic weapons for example just weren't in the novels.

Anyway nothing is shown anywhere that could take an AT-AT or even an AT-ST. This is a mismatch. There's shit all real evidence on their space forces as well unless you delve into the prequels which I never ever will. KJA. Ugh.

I'm quite familiar with Dune novels... my only experiences are movies and games. Just wonder, is there any novel quotes can be used to measure Dune Universe's ground combat capability?

[Jadeite]

I'm quite familiar with Dune novels... my only experiences are movies and games. Just wonder, is there any novel quotes can be used to measure Dune Universe's ground combat capability?

There are plenty of examples in the prequels. And to whoever said that Dune has no sonic weapons, in the part of House Atreides where Ix is being tooken over by the Txeilaxu, it describes Vernius troops setting up sonic weapon emplacements in the tunnels.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

[quote="Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]
I'm quite familiar with Dune novels... my only experiences are movies and games. Just wonder, is there any novel quotes can be used to measure Dune Universe's ground combat capability?[/quote]

Sorry it should be I'm NOT quite familiar.

[Typhonis 1]

I know this is a ground force thread but still you need to get to the ground to fight to begin with can Dune Ships stand up to Imperil ships

[omegaLancer]

The fact that while the various houses of the Dune universe had space/ air power, they lack mechanize forces. In "Dune Messiah" Paul ponder what would happen if any of the noble houses developed Mechanize force to counteract the advantage that Paul had with his Freeman death commando.

What made this impossible was the over whelming hatre that most of the Poeple had against any kind of advance mechanical devices. While shields, lasgun and most kind of infantry weapon was okay, a tank bare too close of a resemble to the forces faced in the great Jiah...

Now Dune Shield apparently was able to shield gainst low level energy attacks, artilley shells,but it was mention in several novels that it could not block out atomics ( that why the atomics possessed by each house was a valuable tool). And the former Emperor own home world was render a radioactive waste land by a rogue house.

Personel shields was not wide spread and seem only to be used by elite troops or their commanders. They could not defense against low velocity projectiles like darts fire from a simple air gun or a thrust from a dagger, and a interaction with a Beam of LAS gun would cause a reaction equal to a nuke.

Paul's final battle against his enemies in "Dune" was plan to concide with a sand storm that would deny them the use of air borne forces, and make it solely a infantry battle. The combination of the Sonic weapons, Worm mounted freemans and the Freeman's hand to hand abilities won the day.

Would Freeman had won without the weather no. The Air power that the various house had brought would have blasted the Freeman into dust, but Paul knew when the emperor would arrive and that on that day a great dust storm happen.

As for Paul abilities to fortell the future, anyone who also can see into the future would be able to block pauls sight, this was the case in "Dune Messiah" and in "Childern of Dune", and a Sith force abilities would easily render Paul or any other with the gift of foretelling blind. Simple fortune telling cards interfer with Paul's sister attempts to scry.

[Lord Pounder]

A Sith would neuter Pauls abilities? Show me one shread of evidence that proves this? Did you even read the feckign books coz you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about.

On another subject how whould a worm work for the Duniverse armies. Lets say that Muad'Dib is able to gain control of a few worms, saying the battle is on Arrakis whats to stop the said Makers swallowing the ATAT's whole?

[omegaLancer]

I have read the book, and the reason behind what I said is this.

In Dune, Dune Messiah and Childern of Dune we find that the precogitative abilities of Paul and his sister were block by person having similar abilities.

First the minute Paul acquire the abilities the Navigators' guild Knew, do to the fact that the future events surrounding Paul and the planet Dune was now block to their abilities.

In Dune Messiah the actions of the group plotting Paul's down fall could not be reveal first due the fact that a Navigator with the abilities to see the future was a member of the cabal against Paul.

In Childern of Dune, his sister was unable to see in to the future due to the wide spread use of Tarot like cards used by freemen and worshipper of Paul.

Since Palpatine is also able to Scry into the future that means his action and plans would also be unpredictable by Paul and his descendent.

More so Palpatine prove able to block all the Jedi senses in this respect include their abilities to detect his ability with the force.

[Sea Skimmer]

A Sith would neuter Pauls abilities? Show me one shread of evidence that proves this? Did you even read the feckign books coz you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about.

On another subject how whould a worm work for the Duniverse armies. Lets say that Muad'Dib is able to gain control of a few worms, saying the battle is on Arrakis whats to stop the said Makers swallowing the ATAT's whole?

A lone concussion missile, the Empire has a couple different ground launchers for them. Really think a worm will still be moving after a hit from a 190 megaton shaped charge?

[Frank Hipper]

I know this is a ground force thread but still you need to get to the ground to fight to begin with can Dune Ships stand up to Imperil ships

Yes or no. Attributes of Dune ships are so vague that what can you say?
We know a Guild Heighliner is huge.
We know that a Frigate is the largest ship that can be landed in one piece. We know that a Hammership is designed to fall on an enemy's position.
We know that a Monitor is heavily armored, and segments into ten pieces to land on a planet.
Not getting into prequel territory, that's about all there is.........





And a herd of sandworms would take an incredibly dim view of AT-ATs running around on Arrakis, controlled or not.

[omegaLancer]

Since this a ground combat of the empire verus all the arm forces of the Dune universe, why would we assume that it will be fought on the only world where sand worms are located.

Or that any major battle would be forught in the Dessert where the worms roam.

[omegaLancer]

I remember that Sand worm are attracted by surface vibration and that the freemen used a Thumper to attract them. for some reason I reminded of Temors 2 and the scene of small radio control cars loaded with Explosive.

I wonder if it would work with the sand worms, replacing chemical explosives with a thermo detonator... Hummmmmmmmm

[Lord Pounder]

Well saying as how a worm wouldn't be seen above ground till it was really close and by then megaton weapons would harm the Shooters as well as the worm that point may be moot also Worms have a known tendancy to rise up from underneath an annoyance to it therefore unless the Imperial forces know abotu worm sign they will be too late to react.

And as far as your concerend Lancer, a worm is hundreds of meters long and it's mough is armoured, Do you really think that a an imperial explosives team would have time to fuck arrounf in the middle of a fire fight? We asume it'll be fought in Dune coz i started the thread and I say so.

And as for the Sith thing are u stupid? A jedi works much different from a person with Prescience. So only if the GE employ a navigator they can block Muad'Dib untill then their plans are bear. Jedi and Kwisatz Haderach are much different beings, one uses Midicloreans to gain his power and uses the Force and the other was a carefully breed human that took too much spice. Oh and they are called FREMEN u gobshite if your gonna try and talk about things you don't know do us the favour of even trying to seem like you did your research instead of spouting some shite you were obviously told.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Just equip the AT-ATs with a self destruct in case they get eaten by a worm, preferrably a hundred thermal detonators or so. That'll give em a nice case of indigestion.

[DocHorror]

All this means is that he would have perfect prescience of the Empire about to kick his ass.

Without trying to cause a major arguement how is Pauls prescience any different from Jedi prescience? If Paul can see the Empire coming to kick his ass & be unable to act on it, how can Jedi act on it in Combat?

What Im trying to say is if the Jedi can see in the future, albeit to a small degree, & they see a blow that is going to kill them (perhaps destined to kill them), then does knowing that its going to kill them mean it WILL kill them or can they alter their destiny...

Do you know what I mean?

Its all a bit metaphysical...

[DocHorror]

crap...messed up the quote on that last post...bugger...

[Darth Wong]

All this means is that he would have perfect prescience of the Empire about to kick his ass.

Without trying to cause a major arguement how is Pauls prescience any different from Jedi prescience? If Paul can see the Empire coming to kick his ass & be unable to act on it, how can Jedi act on it in Combat?

You misunderstand. His inability to act on it is not due to Fate, or any other "metaphysical" concern. His inability to act on it is due to the massively superior firepower the Empire can bring to bear.

If a Jedi reacts to a bolt coming, that's fine and dandy, but if there's a nuclear blast in his face, it doesn't matter whether he can see it coming or not.