Medieval II: Kingdoms

[Dartzap]

So: These Venetian banners and Christian crosses: In the description, it claims the troops are armed with spear/sword and crossbow. the escorting troops always appear to be either normal Crusade spear men for the Cross or Armoured Sargent's for the Venetians. I see no swords, nor do I see any crossbows. Anyone know the reason?

[Vympel]

Hmmm - they've added grapeshot as an attack option for Bombards - anyone tried it out?

[Darth Wong]

Hmmm - they've added grapeshot as an attack option for Bombards - anyone tried it out?

How do you activate that option? I don't see it.

[Vympel]

The special attack button - click once for flaming shot, as per usual, once for grapeshot, then once again for back to normal fire.

I was doing my first city assault with bombards in my Crusade campaign - it was near night time, so they defaulted to that ineffectual and generally inaccurate flaming shot. I clicked once, and the bombards starting moving closer to their target - I didn't notice because I was busy telling my Firethrowers to move somewhere, but then I went back, and saw that the special attack button had changed to grapeshot - pushing it again reverted it to normal fire.

(obviously not much opportunity to try that out in an assault, but it could be awesome out in the open, or placing them in front of a breach at a castle/ city ... )

The Firethrowers are at their most powerful in the cities - I annihilated PoA infantry defending a breach by just lining up firethrowers outside - utterly decimating their Canons of the Holy Sepulchre.

Incidentally, those guys are the most lethal heavy infantry I've ever seen - sending Dismounted Latinkon at them on the walls was a slaughter, and a mere 30 of them can slaughter 150 spearmen, no problem. I can only deal with them efficiently with firethrowers or a cavalry charge.

[Vympel]

Mangonels are really the most devastating artillery addition to the game - I've yet to play any other campaign but the Crusades (which I'm about to finish, the Turks only have one last city and I've finished holding all of the Greek's objective cities) but if they're in the other campaigns I'm definitely giving them a spot in my army - it's just amazing the damage they can do compared to say, Trebuchets or catapults.

Bombards are really only useful for attacking cities, against armies they're just too inaccurate, and grapeshot is only good for one or two salvos at most- though it's funny to watch!

[Vympel]

Just finished the Crusades campaign - I find the enemy are much more willing to sue for peace if you're really powerful than in the last game - I was at war with both the PoA and Egypt (KoJ had made peace already) and I had an army on the way to the last Turk city (Basra) to win the game - their diplomats both approached me during the same term asking for a Ceasefire- I made a counter-proposal of granting the ceasefire if they would give me a certain region - for the PoA, it was Baalbek (their last castle anywhere) and for Egypt it was Dumyat (also their last castle anywhere). They counter-offered by asking for around ~40,000 florins. I cut the amount in half and they accepted.

So I snatched up two citadels (which, incidentally get filled with mercenary troops - Baalbek was stuffed with mercenary heavy cavalry - the Kwarz ... whatever ...) in exchange for a ceasefire. Great.

Anyway, PoA only had Van left, and the camps in Arabia, I had taken everything else, and Egypt was largely intact except for me taking Alexandria as it's a victory condition for the Greeks (obviously), so I got the Byzantine Empire pretty well reconstituted upon victory, with still more than 100 turns to go.

The Mongols are still rampaging though, but I can deal with them the same way I did in the Grand Campaign. No need to keep playing - on to the next campaign!

[PeZook]

Just finished the Crusades campaign - I find the enemy are much more willing to sue for peace if you're really powerful than in the last game - I was at war with both the PoA and Egypt (KoJ had made peace already) and I had an army on the way to the last Turk city (Basra) to win the game - their diplomats both approached me during the same term asking for a Ceasefire- I made a counter-proposal of granting the ceasefire if they would give me a certain region - for the PoA, it was Baalbek (their last castle anywhere) and for Egypt it was Dumyat (also their last castle anywhere). They counter-offered by asking for around ~40,000 florins. I cut the amount in half and they accepted.

You know, I never understoof people's bitching about the diplomatic system. I've managed to use it to get all kinds of results - but here's the key: you need to be seen as reliable for it to work!

Don't break alliances, don't withdraw from promises, don't fuck with others using assassins, etc, and other factions will be more than happy to reason with you.

Is it really so strange that some people just won't believe that you will keep a ceasefire when you've broken it ten times before?

[Vympel]

I try and make a point to always honour my agreements, but I take the Augustus from I, Claudius approach - broken agreements must be met with ruthless, overwhelming retribution.

I just started my Teutonic Campaign, playing as Novgorod - I'd become so used to playing as the Greeks in both the Grand Campaign and the Crusades map I forgot what it was like to have insufficient finance in the early game - luckily, Novgorod is still considered pretty rich by the standards of the play area so it hasn't been too much trouble - in a first, though, I captured two Teutonic Order generals in a battle when they attacked one of my villages and ransomed them both back to the Order - I really needed the money.

I'm really impressed with how each campaign in Kingdoms has an entirely different feel.

Anyway, Novgorod is a new experience for me - they're obviously just the Rus from the Grand Campaign with a different standard and colour, but I've never played the Rus and it's interesting playing as a faction with no well protected heavy infantry equivalent to Dismounted Feudal or Chivalric Knights (the Greek heavy infantry were never as good as Chivalric Knights, but they were close enough).

The Teutonic Order were the first to attack me, I saw them off and made peace with them (the typical trade rights were exchanged) - I set my sights on the Mongol possessions to the south - all rightful Rus possessions (including Kiev) - I took all their cities and they only have one city and one village left, but they made an alliance with the Teutonic Order and they attacked me again - so they're next on my list. I'll execute them all next time, money be damned, they broke the ceasefire.

[Darth Wong]

I've beaten the Americas campaign (as Spain), the Britannia campaign (as the English), and, as of last night, the Crusades campaign (as the Greeks). Of the three, the Crusades campaign was the easiest because money was never a problem.

The only dicey part was the Venetians suddenly showing up on my doorstep, but they bypassed Constantinople when I beefed up its garrison and attacked one of my large towns instead. I rushed a couple of generals there just in time to hire a small mercenary army for the battle and I still lost (a half-stack of merc cavalry and a crappy town garrison of a half-dozen spear militia units is not enough to hold off three Venetian armies), but it was the ultimate Pyrrhic victory: before my forces succumbed to their overwhelming numerical superiority, they managed to kill all of the Venetian generals, thus destroying the faction. The town went rebel and I took it back in the next couple of turns, and that was about the only real difficulty I had in the whole campaign.

I'll do the Teutonic campaign next so I can say I've got all four under my belt.

[Vympel]

The only dicey part was the Venetians suddenly showing up on my doorstep, but they bypassed Constantinople when I beefed up its garrison and attacked one of my large towns instead. I rushed a couple of generals there just in time to hire a small mercenary army for the battle and I still lost (a half-stack of merc cavalry and a crappy town garrison of a half-dozen spear militia units is not enough to hold off three Venetian armies), but it was the ultimate Pyrrhic victory: before my forces succumbed to their overwhelming numerical superiority, they managed to kill all of the Venetian generals, thus destroying the faction. The town went rebel and I took it back in the next couple of turns, and that was about the only real difficulty I had in the whole campaign.

I discovered an interesting thing about the Venetians behavior - they also bypassed Constantinople when they saw how well defended it was (unfortunately, I really wanted to see a battle there - the Varangian Guard cleaving Italians off the walls like it's LotR:TT would've been awesome) - and they moved about Asia Minor with no purpose in particular - I started following them with two stacks - eventally, I managed to herd them in to the two passes in the mountains that lead to the Adana region (which at the time was held by the Principality of Antioch) - the narrow passes meant they could either head for Adana and get out of my hair, or they could turn around and attack the stacks that were following them - they attacked, and all three stacks were wiped out in those mountain passes. Attacking the Greeks on high ground is generally a bad idea. Too many arrows.

I'll do the Teutonic campaign next so I can say I've got all four under my belt.

I'm doing ok in my Teutonic campaign, but I'm getting worried - as Novgorod I've wiped out the (surprisingly weak) Mongols to the south of me and snapped up Chernigov and Kiev and numerous small villages- as well as fought skirmishes with the Teutonic Knights that I've always won - but then I realized that they've formed an alliance with Poland, and worse, Lithuania, my buffer, has been largely wiped out. I'm really hoping the alliance with Poland breaks down and they attack each other, otherwise I'm fucked- Novgorod only starts with one castle, after all, and it's very far from all the towns that have to be defended, and what's more, has a tiny starting population.

I really need to take that Order castle on my borders as a strong defence. Luckily I just got bombards and grand bombards are on the way, and I'm trying to assemble a stack that can take the place (too bad I have no heavy infantry and have to rely on hordes of woodsmen).

The whole villages thing in this campaign is interesting - they'll eventually grow to be towns, but they start off so small that by the end of the campaign they'll never be huge cities (if one were to play that long) - I can't decide if they're worth defending (or attacking).

[Darth Wong]

I discovered an interesting thing about the Venetians behavior - they also bypassed Constantinople when they saw how well defended it was (unfortunately, I really wanted to see a battle there - the Varangian Guard cleaving Italians off the walls like it's LotR:TT would've been awesome) - and they moved about Asia Minor with no purpose in particular - I started following them with two stacks - eventally, I managed to herd them in to the two passes in the mountains that lead to the Adana region (which at the time was held by the Principality of Antioch) - the narrow passes meant they could either head for Adana and get out of my hair, or they could turn around and attack the stacks that were following them - they attacked, and all three stacks were wiped out in those mountain passes. Attacking the Greeks on high ground is generally a bad idea. Too many arrows.

I let the Venetians roam around until they attacked one of my large towns. It seemed like a huge waste of money to raise a large army just to follow them around, and after playing the Britannia campaign, I was still in penny-pincher mode. It took me a while to realize that I could throw money around like Paris Hilton at a Chippendales performance.

I'm doing ok in my Teutonic campaign, but I'm getting worried - as Novgorod I've wiped out the (surprisingly weak) Mongols to the south of me and snapped up Chernigov and Kiev and numerous small villages- as well as fought skirmishes with the Teutonic Knights that I've always won - but then I realized that they've formed an alliance with Poland, and worse, Lithuania, my buffer, has been largely wiped out. I'm really hoping the alliance with Poland breaks down and they attack each other, otherwise I'm fucked- Novgorod only starts with one castle, after all, and it's very far from all the towns that have to be defended, and what's more, has a tiny starting population.

That's weird. In my game, I'm allied with Poland, and Novgorod has conquered huge swathes of territory while I've been cutting down the Lithuanians and trying to build my economy.

I really need to take that Order castle on my borders as a strong defence. Luckily I just got bombards and grand bombards are on the way, and I'm trying to assemble a stack that can take the place (too bad I have no heavy infantry and have to rely on hordes of woodsmen).

I find that once you get cannon towers, you can get by with fairly weak garrisons and save your money for more field armies, which gives you a lot more offensive flexibility.

The whole villages thing in this campaign is interesting - they'll eventually grow to be towns, but they start off so small that by the end of the campaign they'll never be huge cities (if one were to play that long) - I can't decide if they're worth defending (or attacking).

I don't have the patience to wait forever to build up cities, so I always mod Total War games to cut the build time for all structures in half. I figure it's not cheating because the enemy gets the same build-time discount (it's applied to all factions, all structures). It's actually a really easy mod. In my games, it's usually worth it to grab settlements even if they're small, because I can usually build it up to at least a minor city before too long. It's too bad you can't move populations around like you could in RTW, by enslaving conquered populations or recruiting peasants in one town and then disbanding them in another town. In RTW, if you took Carthage early and enslaved its population you got an instant headstart on city growth all over your fledgling empire.

[Vympel]

[
I let the Venetians roam around until they attacked one of my large towns. It seemed like a huge waste of money to raise a large army just to follow them around, and after playing the Britannia campaign, I was still in penny-pincher mode. It took me a while to realize that I could throw money around like Paris Hilton at a Chippendales performance.

Nothing like the greatest city in the world (until the 13th century) to boost your economy

That's weird. In my game, I'm allied with Poland, and Novgorod has conquered huge swathes of territory while I've been cutting down the Lithuanians and trying to build my economy.

I wonder what they're doing it with - probably lots of Militia Cavalry and so forth, unless I'm missing something. I kid you not, the Novgorod castle at the start has a population of less than 1000.

This is the first game ever that I've been frantically building up farms to accelerate population growth - I would usually hold off from doing it normally because I didn't need the disorder.

I find that once you get cannon towers, you can get by with fairly weak garrisons and save your money for more field armies, which gives you a lot more offensive flexibility.

Yeah, I'm building up the ballista towers as a precursor with a view to freeing up my actual military (as opposed to the militia) for campaigning abroad as opposed to running around my territory putting out fires.

One thing I forgot since Rome is the lethality of those javelin throwing cavalry like the Boyar Sons - the AI used it's Jinetes poorly when I crushed Spain when I played the English and the Greeks, but damn if they don't totally massacre enemy General's Bodyguard if you can get close.

I don't have the patience to wait forever to build up cities, so I always mod Total War games to cut the build time for all structures in half. I figure it's not cheating because the enemy gets the same build-time discount (it's applied to all factions, all structures). It's actually a really easy mod. In my games, it's usually worth it to grab settlements even if they're small, because I can usually build it up to at least a minor city before too long. It's too bad you can't move populations around like you could in RTW, by enslaving conquered populations or recruiting peasants in one town and then disbanding them in another town. In RTW, if you took Carthage early and enslaved its population you got an instant headstart on city growth all over your fledgling empire.

I've got that mod of yours sitting on my HD, I've just never implemented it - when I finish all the campaigns I'm going to give it a go and see how I like it.

Also, it seems they've changed the passage of time on the Teutonic Campaign - judging from my turn number (mid 30s) and the date, it appears 1 year = 1 turn, as opposed to the Crusades where it's the typical 2 year = 1 turn.

[PeZook]

I've heard that CA added boiling oil in Kingdoms ; Can somebody tell me what other crucial features got added in? I'm contemplating buying Kingdoms right now, but I'll either do that or wait for a bundle of the original and Kingdoms in one package with a nifty bonus thrown in (they come out like that eventually ), depending on what I get out of the bargain.

[Darth Wong]

Nothing like the greatest city in the world (until the 13th century) to boost your economy

Yeah, it really gives the campaign a completely different feel than the other 3 campaigns.

I wonder what they're doing it with - probably lots of Militia Cavalry and so forth, unless I'm missing something. I kid you not, the Novgorod castle at the start has a population of less than 1000.

In that case, it's amazing that they've conquered so much territory. Although it's possible that my double build-speed mod has been really beneficial to them.

One thing I forgot since Rome is the lethality of those javelin throwing cavalry like the Boyar Sons - the AI used it's Jinetes poorly when I crushed Spain when I played the English and the Greeks, but damn if they don't totally massacre enemy General's Bodyguard if you can get close.

Yeah, they're approaching my borders now and they seem to go really heavy on the missile cavalry. Makes them tough to face in field battles, especially since my economy is still pretty weak and I don't have big field armies. On the other hand, it also means I can slaughter them if they're foolish enough to assault my cities and fortresses.

I've got that mod of yours sitting on my HD, I've just never implemented it - when I finish all the campaigns I'm going to give it a go and see how I like it.

I don't even remember what was in that old mod, or whether I tested it first. In any case, I can also send double build-speed mods for all 4 Kingdoms campaigns if you need 'em.

Also, it seems they've changed the passage of time on the Teutonic Campaign - judging from my turn number (mid 30s) and the date, it appears 1 year = 1 turn, as opposed to the Crusades where it's the typical 2 year = 1 turn.

I wonder how far forward the campaign goes; does anyone get musketeers before it's over?

[Vympel]

In that case, it's amazing that they've conquered so much territory. Although it's possible that my double build-speed mod has been really beneficial to them.

Yeah, farms that much sooner probably gave their population a boost.

Yeah, they're approaching my borders now and they seem to go really heavy on the missile cavalry. Makes them tough to face in field battles, especially since my economy is still pretty weak and I don't have big field armies. On the other hand, it also means I can slaughter them if they're foolish enough to assault my cities and fortresses.

There's swampland on the Teutonic map, apparently - I've yet to fight a battle there, but it'd be interesting to see how the cavalry handle it.

I don't even remember what was in that old mod, or whether I tested it first. In any case, I can also send double build-speed mods for all 4 Kingdoms campaigns if you need 'em.

I might send you a PM when I'm done with Britannia and the Americas campaign - I'm looking at your file, and I don't even know how you did it (can't seem to find that blahblah_buildings file anywhere - is it meant to be booted with the .exe)- maybe you should teach me to fish instead?

I wonder how far forward the campaign goes; does anyone get musketeers before it's over?

It goes to 1550 apparently, so Novgorod at the very least should get Cossack Musketeers - incidentally, I remember you saying that they appeared to be skirmish only, but perhaps they're in the castle tree, as opposed to the city tree?

[Vympel]

Crap - given the end date is 1550, perhaps I should be prepared. The Novgorod Republic ceased to exist in 1478, 7 years after they'd been defeated at a battle and come under the direct control of Muscovy.

I hope some sort of Muscovite horde isn't showing up at some point on my doorstep or something. (Moscow isn't even on the map).

Anyone actually finished the Teutonic campaign to know?

[Vympel]

And another thing- what's up with the General's Bodyguard in both Medieval II and Rome? Did anyone else notice that they remain the "early" variant throughout the game, even though in skirmish there's quickly a better equipped, more modern "late version" (ie original General's Bodyguard for Catholic factions resembles Feudal Knights - the late version resembles Gothic Knights)?

As I understand it, they may have patched this in Rome, but has anyone ever had "late" bodyguards in Medieval II campaign? It'll suck if my Novgorod general's bodyguard don't even have lances for the whole game.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Observations:

Ireland is fun once you get rolling. The Muire are great, one of the truly useful half-size units.

The Apaches are also loads of fun and surprisingly good for fighting western armies. They're quick on the campaign map, have a roster full of ranged units, and their upkeep is like 30 a turn, so you can toss full stacks around the map willy nilly. I just smacked the Spanish up a bit and gained the ability to recruit cavalry and musketeers. That should be interesting.

[RazorOutlaw]

I believe even as the Spanish I had Late General Bodyguards fighting along my Feudal Knights. So yeah, you're not the only one who has experienced that little quirk.

[Vympel]

Just got Cossack Musketeers. It's Turn 49 of the campaign (they're in the city tree, available in Novgorod the moment it becomes a Huge City).

[Darth Wong]

Just got Cossack Musketeers. It's Turn 49 of the campaign (they're in the city tree, available in Novgorod the moment it becomes a Huge City).

Kickass.

BTW, I figured out why the Novgorod did so well in my Teutonic campaign. Their late units are really good, and because of my double build-speed mod, they got their late units much earlier than they should have. They were sending armies of druzhina and dismounted dvor all over the place.

[PeZook]

Just got Cossack Musketeers. It's Turn 49 of the campaign (they're in the city tree, available in Novgorod the moment it becomes a Huge City).

I always hated that about Russia in the original game. Spain has to build Royal Barracks to get her musketeers, but Russia just...gets them basically for free

And they're better than all other musketeers, too.

[Darth Wong]

Just got Cossack Musketeers. It's Turn 49 of the campaign (they're in the city tree, available in Novgorod the moment it becomes a Huge City).

I always hated that about Russia in the original game. Spain has to build Royal Barracks to get her musketeers, but Russia just...gets them basically for free

And they're better than all other musketeers, too.

Certain teams are late-game juggernauts and early-game pussies; your strategy with those teams is just to make it to the late game, and then you can steamroll everyone.

[Vympel]

Ain't that the truth - the only annoying thing now is my Cossack Musketeers taking the trip all the way from Novgorod (and Smolensk, my newest huge city) to the front line- I attacked Poland after making peace with the much-weakened Teutonic Order.

Incidentally, the Novgorod heavy infantry units are strange - the first type of heavy infantry you'll get, apart from Woodsmen, that is, are Dismounted Boyar Sons. Then you'll get Dismounted Druzhina - which are exactly the same in every respect. And they're both in the castle tree. Berdiche Axemen, however, are in the city tree - go figure.

Dismounted Dvor have identical melee stats to Dismounted Boyar Sons - so really, there's no reason to have anything but hordes of Dismounted Dvor for your heavy infantry needs (excluding Berdiche Axemen, of course) I've got 3x Boyar Sons / 3x Dismounted Dvor in my "standard" stack, just for varieties sake (also Boyar Sons have less upkeep).

[Netko]

I've been playing Kingdoms for a few weeks now - its a very nice expansion, probably the best TW expansion yet and up there with the best of them overall. Love how each campaign has its own atmosphere.

I'd rank the campaigns as Crusades and America tied for first (best) place, followed closely by BI, while Teutonic just doesn't do it for me somehow. I've found myself mostly playing America, which I really didn't expect (I was looking forward to England and Crusades mostly) - but there's just something gratifying about laying waste to the natives with musketeers and culverins.

A few observations and questions from my America game:
- Musketeers seem to have kept the retarded AI from the grand campaign - to be even moderately effective I have to put them on skirmish or they waste an insane amount of time on their little reform dances, and I never seem to get the "first row kneels, second row fires over them" if I move the musketeers from their starting position - am I doing something wrong or are they really this crippled?
- Spanish Dragoons are insane. The two I got with one of the later expeditions regularly manage to lay waste to 20% or so of the enemy forces with no (natives) or less then half-dozen (Europeans) casualties - I just run them around the enemy, keeping them constantly in motion until they exhaust their ammunition
- while we're on that subject, is there any way for Spain to build Dragoons and culverins, what title and buildings are required for it?
- the Spanish General's Bodyguards with 3 HP are also quite insane - I managed to kill a 1000+ native army with them as the sole unit (admittedly, my Viceroy so it was overstrength at 32, but still) with only 4 casualties by doing charge and retreat tactics (unlike regular cavalry they very rarely suffer casualties when retreating)
- on the other hand, the native mercenaries are utter crap cannon fodder - those idiots brake if you sneeze near them - just tonight I was assaulting a city and there was only one heavy infantry enemy unit still alive, which got trapped on the walls - so I pinned them down with 2 NMs from the gate side and sent two more to the first tower along the wall so that they would hit the enemy from the rear - the idiots who were attacking the enemy from behind broke under 30s, ran through the enemy suffering massive casualties and routed off the map, while at the same time the units at the front of the enemy maintained their position. Weird. It seems those morons are severly affected by individual action and only have decent morale while part of the main force.
- are the mercs you get when allying with the natives any better? I allied with the tribe just west of Vera Cruz at the beginning, but they had to go relatively soon as they were utterly useless while not wanting to give me military access, and after that I decided to have a genocidal policy towards natives (well, European factions as well) so I didn't really get to explore the mercenary alliance system

All in all, a very nice expansion