Snipers using "Bait" in Iraq

[Chardok]

From HERE

09-24) 04:00 PDT Washington --

A Pentagon group has encouraged some U.S. military snipers in Iraq to target suspected insurgents by scattering pieces of "bait," such as detonation cords, plastic explosives and ammunition, and then killing Iraqis who pick up the items, according to military court documents.

The classified program was described in investigative documents related to recently filed murder charges against three snipers who are accused of planting evidence on Iraqis they killed.

"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of an elite sniper scout platoon attached to the 1st Battalion of the 501st Infantry Regiment, said in a sworn statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."

In documents obtained by the Washington Post from family members of the accused soldiers, Didier said members of the U.S. military's Asymmetric Warfare Group visited his unit in January and later passed along ammunition boxes filled with the drop items to be used "to disrupt the AIF (Anti-Iraq Forces) attempts at harming coalition forces and give us the upper hand in a fight."

Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice, said such a baiting program should be examined meticulously because it raises troubling possibilities, such as what happens when civilians pick up the items.

Soldiers said that about a dozen platoon members were aware of the program, and that numerous others knew about the drop items but did not know their purpose. Two soldiers who had not been officially informed about the program came forward with allegations of wrongdoing after they learned they were going to be punished for falling asleep on a sniper mission, according to the documents.

Army officials declined to discuss the classified program, details of which appear in unclassified investigative documents and in transcripts of court testimony. Criminal investigators wrote that they found materials related to the program in a cardboard box and an ammunition can at the sniper unit's base.

"We don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman. "The accused are charged with murder and wrongfully placing weapons on the remains of Iraqi nationals. There are no classified programs that authorize the murder of local nationals and the use of 'drop weapons' to make killings appear legally justified."

It is unclear whether the program reached elsewhere in Iraq and how many people were killed through the baiting.

Members of the sniper platoon have said they felt pressure from commanders to kill more insurgents, because U.S. units in the area had taken heavy losses. The sniper unit often went on missions into hostile areas to intercept insurgents going to and from hidden weapons caches.

Within months of the program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate. Though it does not appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have opened the door to the soldiers' actions because it blurred the legal lines of killing in a complex war zone.

Spec. Jorge Sandoval and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley are accused by the military of placing a spool of wire into the pocket of an Iraqi man Sandoval had shot April 27 on Hensley's order. The man had been cutting grass with a rusty sickle when he was shot, according to court documents.

The military alleges that the killing of the man carrying the sickle was inappropriate. Hensley and Sandoval have been charged with murder and with planting evidence.

As Sandoval and Hensley approached the corpse, according to testimony and court documents, they allegedly placed a spool of wire, often used by insurgents to detonate roadside bombs, into the man's pocket in an attempt to make the case for the kill ironclad.

One soldier who came forward with the allegations, Pfc. David C. Petta, told the same court that he believed the classified items were for dropping on people the unit had killed, "to enforce if we killed somebody that we knew was a bad guy but we didn't have the evidence to show for it." Petta had not been officially briefed about the program.

Two weeks after that killing, Sandoval and his sniper team stopped for the night in a hide in the village of Jurf as Sakhr along the Euphrates River. While other snipers slept, Hensley watched as an Iraqi man, Genei Nesir Khudair, slowly approached the hide. He radioed to Didier, for permission to go for a close kill.

"I told him that as the ground forces commander, I would authorize that if it was necessary," Didier testified. "And about five minutes later, he told me that he had indeed killed the individual."

The U.S. military alleges that Sgt. Evan Vela, on Hensley's order, shot the Iraqi man twice in the head with a 9mm pistol after he had been taken into custody. It was Vela's first kill, and he was visibly shaken. "He looked weird," Sgt. Robert Redfern testified. "Just messed up from it. How would you feel if you had to shoot someone?"

At the time the two shots rang out, Sandoval was on guard duty about 20 meters away, out of sight of Vela, inside a broken-down pump house along the Euphrates River, soldiers testified.

Vela and Hensley told investigators that the man had an AK-47 with him and that he posed a threat, but other soldiers have alleged that the AK-47 was planted next to Khudair after he was shot. Sandoval's attorney, Capt. Craig Drummond, thinks his client is innocent in both deaths. Hensley's attorney could not be reached for comment.

Drummond said Sandoval did not have anything to do with placing an AK-47 in the pump-house killing. Sandoval made a statement to investigators discussing his involvement in planting the command wire on the first victim.

"That was done by one of the soldiers at the scene basically out of stupidity. The guys were trying to ensure that there were no questions at all about this kill," Drummond said. "It was done to overly justify a kill that didn't need justification."

Two-and-a-half months after the shooting, authorities seized Sandoval while he was vacationing at his mother's house in Laredo, Texas. Sandoval, a former high school ROTC member, is scheduled to face a court-martial in Baghdad on Wednesday.

Am I the only one who thinks this tactic is...err...dirty?

[General Zod]

Shit like this is why I thought we had entrapment laws. . . .apparently the military has never heard of them.

[Knife]

The tactic is sound, but the bait was stupid and just asking for misidentifying a target. Baiting an enemy is older than time, and for a sniper is a good tactic for offensive operations. Kind of like a belly shot on one troops so others will come rescue him and you've got a target rich enviroment.

But the bait in the article was...well criminal. Anyone, wether a combatent or civilian could have picked up the items and went...'cool' and got id-ed as a target. Fucking stupid.

[FSTargetDrone]

The tactic is sound, but the bait was stupid and just asking for misidentifying a target. Baiting an enemy is older than time, and for a sniper is a good tactic for offensive operations. Kind of like a belly shot on one troops so others will come rescue him and you've got a target rich enviroment.

But the bait in the article was...well criminal. Anyone, wether a combatent or civilian could have picked up the items and went...'cool' and got id-ed as a target. Fucking stupid.

That's the the first thing I thought of, innocent people picking up the "bait" for any number of reasons.

[Edi]

The stupidity of this is fucking jaw-dropping. Apparently nobody in the US armed forces command structure who comes up with these things is capable of any sort of rational thought.

Some of that stuff they drop as bait can be dangerous in the wrong hands, such as if a kid picks up something he doesn't know about and it goes wrong. Things like certain types of detonation cord and other explosives and munitions. So someone who does know what they are could very well pick them up just to bring them in somewhere or dispose of them in a more secure manner, so they just get offed on suspicion?

Damn fucking right they charge those snipers with murder, but they really should go the whole hog and charge the entire goddamn command chain at every level until they get to the fucknut who came up with this shit and put it in practice with that kind of loose (some would say nonexistent) guidelines.

I bet this shit is going to go down REALLY well with the Iraqis. The surprising things is that US troops and mercenaries aren't getting their throats cut every time they turn around.

[Eris]

I had guessed the general content of this article more or less in the few moments after reading the title, even before entering the thread. I just made one major mistake.

I thought it was various Iraqi militants doing it, not the US military.

Kind of speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[chitoryu12]

Considering that I'm the kind of person who likes to collect random interesting things, I would certainly find something that resembles a bullet pretty interesting (though if I know it's a live bullet, I definately won't pick it up). Why should Iraqi teenagers be any different? How many innocents will be offed before everyone gets it through their fucking skulls that you can't just blast someone on the tiniest suspicion.

[General Zod]

Considering that I'm the kind of person who likes to collect random interesting things, I would certainly find something that resembles a bullet pretty interesting (though if I know it's a live bullet, I definately won't pick it up).

Bullets that are "live" would be flying through the air, not sitting on the ground. These aren't explosives we're talking about.

Why should Iraqi teenagers be any different?

Al Qaeda is known for using suicide bombers of any stripes, and ME terrorists have a tendency of using under-aged soldiers. Not that that justifies the military's actions in either case. Just saying.

[Ace Pace]

Considering that I'm the kind of person who likes to collect random interesting things, I would certainly find something that resembles a bullet pretty interesting (though if I know it's a live bullet, I definately won't pick it up). Why should Iraqi teenagers be any different? How many innocents will be offed before everyone gets it through their fucking skulls that you can't just blast someone on the tiniest suspicion.

Because Iraqi teenagers, unlike the garden varaiety american idiot, know that bullets arn't exactly the safest thing to play around with, nor do they just randomly wander the streets picking up stuff in an area thats not the safest out there.

[Darth Wong]

Considering that I'm the kind of person who likes to collect random interesting things, I would certainly find something that resembles a bullet pretty interesting (though if I know it's a live bullet, I definately won't pick it up). Why should Iraqi teenagers be any different? How many innocents will be offed before everyone gets it through their fucking skulls that you can't just blast someone on the tiniest suspicion.

Because Iraqi teenagers, unlike the garden varaiety american idiot, know that bullets arn't exactly the safest thing to play around with, nor do they just randomly wander the streets picking up stuff in an area thats not the safest out there.

Go fuck yourself, dipshit. The fact is that it's completely unreasonable to assume that anyone who picks up a strange-looking object on the road must be an insurgent; it's a huge non sequitur and the only way to justify it is to simply assume that this is the case.

[FSTargetDrone]

Bullets that are "live" would be flying through the air, not sitting on the ground. These aren't explosives we're talking about.

I don't want to sound like a smartass, but doesn't "live" ammunition refer to any which can be fired? Such as, the weapon was "loaded with live rounds."

Or is it just a widely used misnomer (for example, when it's said in the media that "live rounds" are found someplace they aren't expected to be found)?

Because I found this from a military website:

[q]“To make sure it is calibrated right, we will do pre-aim calibrations (PAC) with CIWS throughout the deployment and will keep it loaded with live rounds.”[/q]

Really, I'm just a bit confused on the correct terminology here.

[Ace Pace]

Go fuck yourself, dipshit. The fact is that it's completely unreasonable to assume that anyone who picks up a strange-looking object on the road must be an insurgent; it's a huge non sequitur and the only way to justify it is to simply assume that this is the case.

It's not the ideal state of affairs, but in Iraq, which has been fucked over by enough civil war and idiotic soldiers from every possible side shooting everyone, picking random objects isn't the smartest possible thing to do.

[General Zod]

I don't want to sound like a smartass, but doesn't "live" ammunition refer to any which can be fired? Such as, the weapon was "loaded with live rounds."

Or is it just a widely used misnomer (for example, when it's said in the media that "live rounds" are found someplace they aren't expected to be found)?

I suspect it's a misnomer. Chitterling is making it sound as though bullets are explosives that can go off at the slightest touch and are dangerous to so much as handle when it's clearly false.

[Aaron]

I don't want to sound like a smartass, but doesn't "live" ammunition refer to any which can be fired? Such as, the weapon was "loaded with live rounds."

Or is it just a widely used misnomer (for example, when it's said in the media that "live rounds" are found someplace they aren't expected to be found)?

Because I found this from a military website:

[q]“To make sure it is calibrated right, we will do pre-aim calibrations (PAC) with CIWS throughout the deployment and will keep it loaded with live rounds.”[/q]

Really, I'm just a bit confused on the correct terminology here.

In the military "live" ammo refers to any ammunition that can be fired. So called because we actually use dummy ammo extensively.

[Edi]

Go fuck yourself, dipshit. The fact is that it's completely unreasonable to assume that anyone who picks up a strange-looking object on the road must be an insurgent; it's a huge non sequitur and the only way to justify it is to simply assume that this is the case.

It's not the ideal state of affairs, but in Iraq, which has been fucked over by enough civil war and idiotic soldiers from every possible side shooting everyone, picking random objects isn't the smartest possible thing to do.

So, even if it happens to be in your neighborhood and dangerous objects that your own kids might stumble upon and hurt themselves with, you should leave them there? Doesn't fly. There are expediency arguments for certain things like we talked about, but this is not one of those cases.

[Ace Pace]

Upon further thinking, both Edi and Darth Wong are correct and I'm being an idiot. I won't bring up any excuses, but I conceed, what I said was stupid and wrong.

[FSTargetDrone]

In the military "live" ammo refers to any ammunition that can be fired. So called because we actually use dummy ammo extensively.

That's what I thought, thanks!

[Frank Hipper]

I'm reminded of a film I haven't seen since...

"If they pick the bait up, they're an insurgent!"

"What if they don't go for the bait?"

"Then they're a well-disciplined insurgent!"

[Elfdart]

So when an Iraqi cop sees what looks like something dangerous and picks it up off the street (where it's a danger to others, or before the enemy can use it), he gets a bullet in the head. Nice one.

[Elfdart]

Am I the only one who thinks this tactic is...err...dirty?

Planting weapons on people after you shoot them? Dirty? No way. The Houston Police Department has been doing it for over 40 years.

[Wanderer]

I'm reminded of a film I haven't seen since...

"If they pick the bait up, they're an insurgent!"

"What if they don't go for the bait?"

"Then they're a well-disciplined insurgent!"

Full Metal Jacket and it was;

"If they run, they're Viet Cong. If they stand still they're well disciplined Viet Cong." Said by the door gunner as he shot Vietnamese peasants.

[Frank Hipper]

I'm reminded of a film I haven't seen since...

"If they pick the bait up, they're an insurgent!"

"What if they don't go for the bait?"

"Then they're a well-disciplined insurgent!"

Full Metal Jacket and it was;

"If they run, they're Viet Cong. If they stand still they're well disciplined Viet Cong." Said by the door gunner as he shot Vietnamese peasants.

Uhhh, thank you?

[Chardok]

Full Metal Jacket and it was;

"If they run, they're Viet Cong. If they stand still they're well disciplined Viet Cong." Said by the door gunner as he shot Vietnamese peasants.

Uhhh, thank you?

Gooooosfraba, old friend, serenity now. He doesn't know you as well as the rest of us.

[chitoryu12]

I suspect it's a misnomer. Chitterling is making it sound as though bullets are explosives that can go off at the slightest touch and are dangerous to so much as handle when it's clearly false.

No. It's just that if somebody leaves a bullet lying in the road (as I rarely go into backwoods areas anyway), it will likely raise some suspicion, as to who the hell was carrying live rounds down my street. It's the same as with the bait in Iraq, where they just drop the ammo and det cords in the street and on the sidewalks for people to pick up.

[Mr Bean]

Wait a tick everyone

This is fucking Iraq, a place were people being blow up by roadside bombs are a daily incident and have been for THREE plus years. You don't fucking walk around picking up strange looking things, that kind of shit should have been trained out of the local populace.

I don't support the tactics of the snipers and call it questionable under the Geneva conventions. But seriously who the fuck is going to in Iraq right now if they see something strange walk over there and pick it up?

I mean what the flying fuck?