Are trek sensors really bad or are the crews really inept?

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2007-09-23 09:17am

The reason I ask is because I've lost track of how many times someone is talking then there's a bang, the ship shakes, the alarm sounds, and the captain is called to the bridge. Why? Because the ship is under attack. So many times the first warning of an attack is the ship being hit.

This includes the defiant in times of war with some of the best crew in the fleet so is it their gear that's so crap?

This may be Trek only but I posted in vs as it's somewhat relevant I believe.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-09-23 10:20am

Really is just Trek.

And yeah, it's close to either ineptitude or their sensors being wildly divergent in power...completely depending on the situation.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2007-09-23 10:44am

A phenomenon which seemed far more frequent in the TNG-era series (and Boobyprise).

DogsOfWar · Post by **DogsOfWar** » 2007-09-23 11:33am

Some of it is definitely equipment (Ent-D didn't detect the Stargazer until Wesley adjusted the sensors), some of it is countermeasures (cloaking devices and the pirate vessel with Picard as a crewman), and I'm sure a lot of it is plain incompetence (Riker comes to mind for some reason).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-09-23 11:38am

One consistent feature of Trek is that they have all kinds of fancy sensor technologies (for example, one Romulan captain even mentioned the Federation's "gravitic sensor nets"), but they either do not deploy them on their starships or they choose not to turn them on. How often do you hear some jackass say that they're just going to push a few buttons and then "remodulate" the sensors to pick up something special? Hey fucktard, why don't you have your computer automatically and constantly "remodulating" the sensors to pick up all manner of things, so you don't get caught with your pants down so often? Or how about adding multiple sensor banks, so that you can sweep for many target types at once? Can't you find room, in a ship where a third of the fucking space was apparently set aside for "future expansion"? Oops, that would be too easy!

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2007-09-23 12:05pm

In Trek, there's always an excuse with plenty of technobabble for something, all contrived for a story or some redundant script lines.

Somehow, somewhere, some nutwits get enjoyment from that.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2007-09-23 02:03pm

isn't one of the major problems with alot trek gear that while their theoretical range/abilities are impressive (by our standards) every sub space fart will interfare with them making their actual performance alot less

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2007-09-23 02:07pm

Darth Wong wrote:Can't you find room, in a ship where a third of the fucking space was apparently set aside for "future expansion"?

You gotta be kidding me!

Where is that peal of idiocy from? The TM?

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2007-09-23 06:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:One consistent feature of Trek is that they have all kinds of fancy sensor technologies (for example, one Romulan captain even mentioned the Federation's "gravitic sensor nets"), but they either do not deploy them on their starships or they choose not to turn them on.

Maybe those systems consume a lot of power, or overheat easily-- that's why they're not turned on all the time.

How often do you hear some jackass say that they're just going to push a few buttons and then "remodulate" the sensors to pick up something special? Hey fucktard, why don't you have your computer automatically and constantly "remodulating" the sensors to pick up all manner of things, so you don't get caught with your pants down so often? Or how about adding multiple sensor banks, so that you can sweep for many target types at once?

Assuming Starfleet actually trains its crewmembers to use the sensors in a competent manner, maybe limitations in computer technology, e.g., poor AI or the problems with multitasking, prevents Starfleet vessels from performing as you suggested.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2007-09-23 06:43pm

Sidewinder wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:few buttons and then "remodulate" the sensors to pick up something special? Hey fucktard, why don't you have your computer automatically and constantly "remodulating" the sensors to pick up all manner of things, so you don't get caught with your pants down so often? Or how about adding multiple sensor banks, so that you can sweep for many target types at once?
Assuming Starfleet actually trains its crewmembers to use the sensors in a competent manner, maybe limitations in computer technology, e.g., poor AI or the problems with multitasking, prevents Starfleet vessels from performing as you suggested.

Why would it be necessarily beyond the scope of even a basic computer to automatically scan through each available frequency? Such an operation doesn't require a full-range AI system to accomplish, it could easily be encoded in the control programme's subroutines.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-09-23 08:20pm

Junghalli wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Can't you find room, in a ship where a third of the fucking space was apparently set aside for "future expansion"?
You gotta be kidding me!
Where is that peal of idiocy from? The TM?

The TNG TM DOES state such but I'm reasonably certain it's mentioned somewhere in an aired episode too (and no I can't tell you which one).

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2007-09-24 09:23am

DogsOfWar wrote:<snip>, some of it is countermeasures (cloaking devices and the pirate vessel with Picard as a crewman.

Well the final straw causing this post was an episode of DS9 where the defiant was making a supply run to the front lines during the dominion war. Two main characters were talking, then bang, they're hit by fire from Dominion ships. THEN the alarm sounds and people are called to battle stations.
No cloaks, no special phenomenon, just a warship with sensors that can't pick up an enemy ship till it's shot them, or one of the best crews in star fleet sleeping on the job on the front lines in war time.

Jark · Post by **Jark** » 2007-09-24 10:41am

PayBack wrote: Well the final straw causing this post was an episode of DS9 where the defiant was making a supply run to the front lines during the dominion war. Two main characters were talking, then bang, they're hit by fire from Dominion ships. THEN the alarm sounds and people are called to battle stations.
No cloaks, no special phenomenon, just a warship with sensors that can't pick up an enemy ship till it's shot them, or one of the best crews in star fleet sleeping on the job on the front lines in war time.

May I ask which episode that was?

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2007-09-24 11:20am

Sidewinder wrote: Maybe those systems consume a lot of power, or overheat easily-- that's why they're not turned on all the time.

The problem with that theory is in the same episode, when it was suspected that cloaked ship might be in the area, they still didn't turn on these "gravitic sensors" that would help them to track the Warbird. They relied exclusively on an intermittent subspace wake or whatever it was that the Warbird was generating (due to internal sabotage) to track the ship.

My theory would be simply that you need more than one ship or station to create this network. We see this quite clearly in Redemption II with the tachyon detection grid, and it might be similar with this other detection method.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2007-09-24 12:15pm

There are many examples of trek sensors failing,or perhaps the crews incompetence,in every trek show i have seen.
Take VOY as an example, they were falling into weird space phenomena frequently,but the sensors always detected those phenomena too late.
They also detect their enemies a bit too late.
I think either star trek computers are stupid,or the crews are incompetent,or both.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2007-09-24 05:57pm

As I said once a while ago , in the future their is no radar. Six or 12 moder Aegis style scanning radars 2 foe each face...I mean How the Hell is a ship going to hide in a bnlind spot then and given that Trek fights usually occur at short ranges....

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2007-09-26 12:24am

What makes the TNG/DS9 examples even more pathetic is the fact that there were several incidents in TOS in which the Enterprise's deflector shields were automatically activated by sensor contact with an unidentified object.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2007-09-26 09:06am

Patrick Degan wrote:What makes the TNG/DS9 examples even more pathetic is the fact that there were several incidents in TOS in which the Enterprise's deflector shields were automatically activated by sensor contact with an unidentified object.

TNG era and later are the politically correct Federation. How dare they raise shields at unknown objects!! It would make them seem aggressive and barbaric!

They have to leave their shields down and power down their sensors to be as passive and friendly as possible. Whereas the TOS era was more of a western shoot'em up style.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2007-09-27 03:19am

Jark wrote:
PayBack wrote: Well the final straw causing this post was an episode of DS9 where the defiant was making a supply run to the front lines during the dominion war. Two main characters were talking, then bang, they're hit by fire from Dominion ships. THEN the alarm sounds and people are called to battle stations.
No cloaks, no special phenomenon, just a warship with sensors that can't pick up an enemy ship till it's shot them, or one of the best crews in star fleet sleeping on the job on the front lines in war time.
May I ask which episode that was?

Ummm I don't recall the exact name (the DVD was a rental) it was something like Siege at <something> 529 or something. Vague I know but I don't recall as I said.

It was the one where they end up helping the troops defend a comms station I think it was. The "troops" were cracking up as they're supposed to be rotated out every 90 days but they'd been there 5 months.

Quark and Dax were talking, then the ship jolts violently. Quark runs out after Dax to see what's happening and bumps in to Worf on his way to the bridge.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2007-09-27 11:15am

PayBack wrote:
Jark wrote:
PayBack wrote: Well the final straw causing this post was an episode of DS9 where the defiant was making a supply run to the front lines during the dominion war. Two main characters were talking, then bang, they're hit by fire from Dominion ships. THEN the alarm sounds and people are called to battle stations.
No cloaks, no special phenomenon, just a warship with sensors that can't pick up an enemy ship till it's shot them, or one of the best crews in star fleet sleeping on the job on the front lines in war time.
May I ask which episode that was?
Ummm I don't recall the exact name (the DVD was a rental) it was something like Siege at <something> 529 or something. Vague I know but I don't recall as I said.

It was The Siege of AR-558. I haven't seen it, but if Sisko was as fucking incompetent as you describe, I'm grateful I didn't see it.

Jark · Post by **Jark** » 2007-09-27 11:22am

PayBack wrote: Ummm I don't recall the exact name (the DVD was a rental) it was something like Siege at <something> 529 or something. Vague I know but I don't recall as I said.

It was the one where they end up helping the troops defend a comms station I think it was. The "troops" were cracking up as they're supposed to be rotated out every 90 days but they'd been there 5 months.

Ok, I know which one you're talking about, it's called The Siege at AR-558. Also, I thought it was just that one guy cracking, or am I wrong?

Quark and Dax were talking, then the ship jolts violently. Quark runs out after Dax to see what's happening and bumps in to Worf on his way to the bridge.

I checked the script but it didn't seem to have many details on the actual battle. I do know the Dominion uses sensor jammers since they were doing that at the start of the episode Valiant, so maybe the same thing was happening here? Here's a quote from that episode

NOG
I'm not sure... I'm having trouble
with the long-range scanners...
looks like... our sensors are
being... jammed.

If I recall correctly, they didn't know about the Dominion ships until they saw them out the window.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2007-09-27 02:05pm

PayBack wrote:The "troops" were cracking up as they're supposed to be rotated out every 90 days but they'd been there 5 months. :shock:

There's 5 months in theater and then there's 5 months in actual combat. Which was this?

Jark · Post by **Jark** » 2007-09-27 02:10pm

drachefly wrote: There's 5 months in theater and then there's 5 months in actual combat. Which was this?

It looks like it was actual combat. Here're selections from the script of that episode

VARGAS
Take it easy? I'd love to take
it easy. Just get me out of this
vole-hole and I promise all I'll
do, for the rest of my life, is
take it easy! According to
Starfleet regulations we're
suppose to be rotated off the
front lines after ninety days --
ninety days. We've been stuck
here for five months!

LARKIN
I know our orders, Captain. But
maybe Starfleet Command isn't
aware of our situation -- we've
been holding this place for five
months. That's five months of
fighting off repeated Jem'Hadar
attempts to take it back. When
we landed here, there was a
hundred and fifty of us... we're
down to forty-three.

They also had to deal with some sort of mines that hide in subspace and appear at random to kill a target.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2007-09-28 02:57am

Jark wrote:NOG
I'm not sure... I'm having trouble
with the long-range scanners...
looks like... our sensors are
being... jammed.

If I recall correctly, they didn't know about the Dominion ships until they saw them out the window.

So does that mean long range is considered outside eyesight range?

Ok, I know which one you're talking about, it's called The Siege at AR-558. Also, I thought it was just that one guy cracking, or am I wrong?

Well there was only obvious evidence of one. I just assumed it was indicative of the overall feeling of the unit.