Why are the British paranoid about official ID?

[Big Orange]

Why is the British public so paranoid about them being introduced for ease of official identification? The mainstream British public is already logged and catalogued by the UK government anyway, with tax records, bank accounts, passports, birth certificates and DNA records.

Why are people so unnecessarily frightened about ID cards, when they're widespread in many mainland European countries with no detrimental results?

[Dalton]

Four words: "Where are your papers?"

[Keevan_Colton]

They like the illusion of anonymity...that's basically it...same reason americans scream and cry about CCTV cameras in public as a breach of privacy. They dont really understand that simply existing and interacting with society in almost any way at all means that they exist in countless records and so on that are all easily cross referenced.

Personally it doesnt really bother me, it doesnt really make much of a difference to me, if the government wants to track this information they already have it all anyway.

[Masami von Weizegger]

...why is the British public so paranoid about them being introduced for ease of official identification? The mainstream British public is already logged and catalogued by the UK government anyway, with tax records, bank accounts, passports, birth certificates and DNA records.

Why are people so unnecessarily frightened about ID cards, when they're widespread in many mainland European countries with no detrimental results?

Simple paranoia, and the spectre of the European Union being responsible for everything bad to happen to the UK in the last 50 or so years. It's just one giant slippery slope fallacy. First you have ID cards, then undesirables are marked, then you're being walled up in abandoned coke ovens for not supporting adoption of the Euro by sinister B-Eurocrats with their funny accents.

[Netko]

Yeah, its pure paranoia. ID cards simplify identification immensely - there is no bullshit about utility bills, pay stubs, driver's licenses and what to do with people who don't drive etc. You have this state issued card proving your identity and thats it. Sure, alternate forms of identity proof are possible, but with a reliable baseline its so much simpler. In today's society you pretty much have to have some sort of id proof issued by a trusted authority to be able to do pretty much any serious interaction with both state services and corporations (contracts), even if the police don't have actual powers to demand your identification without a cause. We already need to prove our identity by more then just our word in serious situations, so introducing ID cards only shatters that illusion, while on the other hand simplifying identity proof for both the person and the corporation/government service/whatnot on the other side.

I certainly never felt that because of me possessing an identity card, my country is fascist or something.

[Bounty]

Four words: "Where are your papers?"

Why are those four words a problem? Unless I'm missing a reference here.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm sorry but Britain has some of the most stringent laws in europe in regards to moderating the behaviour of it's citizens and what they can and can't own, as well as being the most CCTV intensive country in the world, not to mention speed cameras, massive dna database etcera. And they get hung up on ID cards? Laffo.

[Teebs]

I think that other problems that people have with them include:

Their cost.

The fact that the government wants to compile piles of information onto a huge database with them, but has a history of screwing up IT projects to the tune of them being massively over budget and then turning out to be useless anyway.

The fact the government actually proposed at one point selling the various bits of information they had on them to firms in order to offset the costs of having the cards.

The ID cards and their database while compile a wide range of information covering all of someone's dealings with the government not just a few facts like name, citizenship, date of birth e.t.c.

Those are some of the objections to the UK ID card scheme. As I understand it it's not like the ID cards many European countries have but would be far more comprehensive and be done on a scale that hasn't been tried before anywhere.

Beyond that, there's the fact that the government hasn't actually made any decent justification for why we need to spend so much money on such a scheme.

[Keevan_Colton]

Four words: "Where are your papers?"

Why are those four words a problem? Unless I'm missing a reference here.

I suspect it's meant to conjure up images of evil nazi and commie military authoritarian sorts...I'd have expected better from Rob. After all, any time you want to register for something...even a video store membership...they'll ask for your papers...usually a bill or something that shows your address and name...and lets not even get onto starting a bank account or traveling across borders...

The entire job of passport control/immigration is to check peoples papers.

[Bounty]

I suspect it's meant to conjure up images of evil nazi and commie military authoritarian sorts...

I never understood this reasoning. ID cards - the kind I'm familiar with, anyway - don't store any info that isn't publicly available. Name, date and place of birth, noble title if applicable and a photo. Nothing on political affiliation, religion or anything else that can be used to single you out.

Plus, I'm fairly certain that not having ID cards ever stopped any form of genocide. With the amount of administration and record-keeping in the modern world, the idea that you're untraceable as long as you don't have a little plastic card with a chip is laughable.

[El Moose Monstero]

speed cameras

Sorry to pick out a single point from your list, but what's the issue with speed cameras in terms of moderating behaviour?

Realistically, speed cameras may only slow down traffic in specific areas (and some may argue that speeders rapidly braking before a visible speed camera will cause accidents), but how is it any different than getting pulled over by a police car that's pulled you over after sitting in a hidden layby or being caught by a policeman with speed gun? What's the issue with enforcing speed laws with cameras?

[Ghost Rider]

Clear titles, not bizarre "I'm leading up to sorta something.".

[brianeyci]

Why is the British public so paranoid about them being introduced for ease of official identification?

The question you have to ask yourself is: why the fuck do they need ID cards if by your own admission they are already logged by the government through other means?

I don't see it as paranoia. If you want health service you have a health card. If you want to drive you have a driver's license. If you want to leave you have a passport or citizenship card. I don't want one card for everything, because separation of information is a basic tenent of information security. Need to know basis.

Repeat after me: the government is not one monolithic entity. If it ever became a monolithic entity there's a chance it would be oppressive, so different departments should have different requirements and ideally be totally isolated and work only within their mandate. The counter example is terrorism, but let's face it Interpol is the counter to terrorism and a dedicated anti-terrorism team, not every part of government sharing information in a feeding frenzy. We have seen how well that goes with babies getting tagged by bullshit "no fly lists."

There's also the bureaucratic problem and huge IT cost overruns.

[Darth Wong]

speed cameras

Sorry to pick out a single point from your list, but what's the issue with speed cameras in terms of moderating behaviour?

Isn't it obvious? He wants to drive dangerously without getting fined.

[Bounty]

I don't want one card for everything, because separation of information is a basic tenent of information security. Need to know basis.

One, you're paranoid.

Two, an ID isn't a "card for everything". I have a separate driver's license and health card in addition to one that establishes my identity.

There's also the bureaucratic problem and huge IT cost overruns.

This I don't get. Printing the cards costs money, that's why I paid €10 for mine. As for bureaucracy, making the cards is just as matter of printing existing information on a piece of plastic (my last one was ready in three days). In return, you get a far more streamlined process of identifying yourself when dealing with the government. How is that a disadvantage for anyone?

[Colonel Olrik]

There's also the bureaucratic problem and huge IT cost overruns.

What? Having a single card containing your information is by definition less bureaucratic than having five separate cards that you have to request at five different locations, wasting five perfectly good days in the process.

In return, you get a far more streamlined process of identifying yourself when dealing with the government. How is that a disadvantage for anyone?

And in the EU, with any government. Living in Germany, it would be a pain in the ass (and more dangerous) to have to carry my passport around and use it for daily purposes, compared to a credit card sized piece of plastic that by law has to be accepted everywhere.

[Darth Wong]

One thing Brian is forgetting is that if you do suffer an identity theft (something that can and has been done with as little as a credit-card bill stolen out of your mailbox and knowledge of your birthdate), it's actually far more difficult to re-establish your identity when you have a metric shit-ton of different organizations that you have to convince at once.

[Tribun]

There aren't really much points you can really put against ID cards.

We have them here for almost 150 years now, and neither do we still live in 1984, nor do the costs slam us. We must only pay 5€ all five years to get issued new ID card, but that's it. Btw., these things ARE really practical. A universal proof of who you are makes life a lot easier.

[Dalton]

Four words: "Where are your papers?"

Why are those four words a problem? Unless I'm missing a reference here.

I suspect it's meant to conjure up images of evil nazi and commie military authoritarian sorts...I'd have expected better from Rob.

Actually I meant it as more of a representation of the mindset of some of the more paranoid people who oppose it, not as something I seriously believe.

[Lonestar]

I've never figured out what the problem is with National IDs, myself. I mean, for all intents and purposes Dirvers Licenses act as a National ID.

[Knife]

I've never figured out what the problem is with National IDs, myself. I mean, for all intents and purposes Dirvers Licenses act as a National ID.

Exactly. A Drivers licence or the all might SS card is effectively an ID, the drivers in state and the SS national (just no picture).

[Lonestar]

Exactly. A Drivers licence or the all might SS card is effectively an ID, the drivers in state and the SS national (just no picture).

Law Enforcement databases being what they are, a Driver's License for all intents and purposes is National, no matter where you are

[Netko]

But then you run into issues of what to do about people who don't want or aren't able to drive but who still need an ID. With the end result of it being one of the factors for the piss easy driving exams in the US and the idiotic laws like that one in California which essentially mandate giving out drivers licenses as IDs but without withholding the driving part. Bit bad for road safety, don't you think?

A much more sane method is, instead of tying the ID need to drivers licenses , to tie the driver's license information with an ID card, if you absolutely must have only one.

[ray245]

Not to mention there might people who end up driving without passing test getting a driver IC because of it.

And how 'advanced' is the US driving license anyway? Since it is being used as a IC...

[Darth Wong]

The fact is that there's a need for a reliable photo ID card, and if not everyone intends to get a driver's license, that is a great reason to have a non-drivers-license national photo ID card. As it stands, there are plenty of places where they won't even take your credit-card if you can't show them a driver's license.