Tanks vs. Mechs: 1941 Force Sub Part 3

[SylasGaunt]

Ummm, underwater, not underground.

Both actually.

[Typhonis 1]

OK so the Hind As shower the damn bots with folding fin rockets from there pods.Land mines anyone??how wel will a frelling zoid move if a tank mine blows a foot off?Sniper vs pilots out in the open in a forward base say

[Darth Wong]

These things have exposed joints, ridiculously inefficient configuration of armour, and poor balance. If someone is going to claim that they can shrug off anti-tank weapons which will punch through three feet of RHA despite their horrendous configuration and vertical surfaces, they'd better provide the evidence (note that impressive-looking HE and incendiary effects are not evidence of said capability in a weapon).

[SylasGaunt]

And? It's not like they're the only mecha to have bad armor sloping (a certain imperial walker comes to mind) yet for some reason we don't seem to automatically assume an AT-AT will be taken out by a modern tank shell.

Don't suppose anyone knows what kind of KE you'd need for a shell to fly for 60 miles?

Beyond that I'll have to check the eps I have to get anything more definite.

[SAMAS]

Ummm, underwater, not underground.

Both actually.

To be exact, War Sharks are also capable of moving through loose ground such as sand.

[SAMAS]

OK so the Hind As shower the damn bots with folding fin rockets from there pods.

Spacing, please.

Hinds have to get through the Zabats and Redlers. And after that is the problem of getting shot by AA guns on some of the ground Zoids.

Land mines anyone??how wel will a frelling zoid move if a tank mine blows a foot off?

Ask Raven, who beat the crap out of a Command Wolf when he had only three legs(The fourth had a 25-foot metal spike going through the end).

[The Yosemite Bear]

OI KRIFFING VEY

Ok, it's made out of generic mecha metal that is alternatly lighter then Kleenex adn can take hits from small nukes without being damaged, strangely no material in any rational universe exists like that, and if it did because of the armour faciets/power transmission ratios that naturaly exist in any real world comparison, would be better suited for use on a real vehicle with decent surface area transmission factors. Especially since there is such a thing as Equal and opposite reaction.

oh and Energy required to propell a 100ton object and 200kph is applied to the frame and the surface area equally (Which incidentally is where mecha get raped in every variation of this force sub)

[The Yosemite Bear]

1. Gundum Alex's arm mounted mini-gun did not spin her around like a ballerina in a microgravity enviornment with no bracing.


2. The Zaku II in question was heavily Damaged

3. The Kampher had piss poor armour, and was infinatly COOLER

[SylasGaunt]

The armor in the area that was hit certainly didn't looked damaged, and more importantly it was acting like a kinetic penetrator.

[SylasGaunt]

Okay I'm trying to compile a list of incidents based on both memory and my DVDs (unfortunately I've only got the first two) on Zoid sensors, wepaons and armor.

1.) Judge Pods can survive re-entry and impact with the ground (leaving a damn big crater to) however zoid weaponry is capable of punching through them (As Brad's shadow fox did against Naomi's Gunsniper).

2.) Episode 1 has the 60+ mile range for the standard long range rifle

3.) In episode two Leena and Brad both move into a forrested area to try and conceal themselves from an enemy Gunsniper and Leena's Dibison gets picked up on what looks like an IR scanner of some kind.

4.) Same episode, Naomi's sensors have pretty much every zoids on the battlefield locked up.

5.) In episode 3 of Zoids Zero Bit's Liger Zero detects Harry Champ's Dark Horn coming at him through a building from behind. (said Dark Horn plowing through the building a few seconds later).

6.) 2 rounds from the Liger Zero's impact cannon blew a hole big enough for the Liger Zero and Harry's Dark Horn to fit through.

7.) Episode 4 shows Helcats and a Saber Tiger with cloaking systems (Who are eventually picked up by using the Zoid's sensors to detect their footsteps and the Saber Tiger by the outline it makes in a dust cloud).

8.) Brad picks up the enemy zoid team at 30 kilometers in Ep. 5

9.) Jack Cisco's Lightning Saix picks up the Liger Zero Jaeger coming in from the rear on radar

10.) Same episode, both the lightning Saix and the Liger Zero Jaeger create a substanial shockwave when they boost their speed.

11.) Episode 8, the Blitz teams zoids survive being struck by artificial lightning.

12.) Same ep. the Liger Zero Schneider was able to keep it's footing through a cyclone capable of mangling a judge capsule

That's all I've got at the moment. One of my friends has almost the entire series on tape so I'll see if I can't get ahold of those today.

[SAMAS]

These things have exposed joints,

The caps on the end aren't the joints. Many Zoids, such as the Saber Tiger, have their joints fully encapsulated.

ridiculously inefficient configuration of armour, and poor balance.

Their balance is as good as the animals they resemble. Possibly a little better, considering they also have the added concerns of weapons fire.

If someone is going to claim that they can shrug off anti-tank weapons which will punch through three feet of RHA despite their horrendous configuration and vertical surfaces, they'd better provide the evidence (note that impressive-looking HE and incendiary effects are not evidence of said capability in a weapon).

Have we said they would shrug them off? We're not bringing Getter Robo in here.

Okay, some of the more powerful Zoids could...

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

There are several zoids that can be equipped with optical cloaking systems making them invisible.

Do I need to tell you how stupid that is, concidering IIRC they have glass cockpits?

[SylasGaunt]

We aren't told how it works other than that we get a Predator style ripple with no sign at all that it inhibits the pilot any.

[SAMAS]

There are several zoids that can be equipped with optical cloaking systems making them invisible.

Do I need to tell you how stupid that is, concidering IIRC they have glass cockpits?

Actually, those would be the majority of Republic Zoids, like the Ligers, Command Wolves, etc. Most Imperial Zoids have fully enclosed cockpits(check the links)

[Admiral Valdemar]

There are several zoids that can be equipped with optical cloaking systems making them invisible.

Do I need to tell you how stupid that is, concidering IIRC they have glass cockpits?

Actually, those would be the majority of Republic Zoids, like the Ligers, Command Wolves, etc. Most Imperial Zoids have fully enclosed cockpits(check the links)

A glass cockpit on a mobile armour unit.

Reminds me of a screendoor on a sub only not as stupid.

[SylasGaunt]

A glass cockpit on a mobile armour unit.

Reminds me of a screendoor on a sub only not as stupid.

Provided it's glass and not something like that transperant armor material used used in the Republic Fighter Tank and other AOTC vehicles... which would I think be hte case seeing as how I can't recall an instance of the cockpit 'glass' breaking.

[Darth Wong]

Their balance is as good as the animals they resemble. Possibly a little better, considering they also have the added concerns of weapons fire.

Ummm, the shapes of the animals they resemble work only at the scales and weights of the original animals. You do realize that, right?

[SAMAS]

There was one scene, in one of the last episodes of Zoids Guardian Force(Takes place a long time before Slash Zero(Blitz Team)), where a shot from a hidden cannon on the Death Stinger hits the cockpit of the Gustav, putting a small hole in the canopy and injuring Fiona.

But off the top of my head, that's like the only time that's happened without the rest of the Zoid getting fragged.

[SAMAS]

Their balance is as good as the animals they resemble. Possibly a little better, considering they also have the added concerns of weapons fire.

Ummm, the shapes of the animals they resemble work only at the scales and weights of the original animals. You do realize that, right?

Yes.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Their balance is as good as the animals they resemble. Possibly a little better, considering they also have the added concerns of weapons fire.

Ummm, the shapes of the animals they resemble work only at the scales and weights of the original animals. You do realize that, right?

Yes.

Well that's generally why you don't see giant mammals now, the biggest dinos were still miniscule in mass to these things and they didn't dart about too easy either.

I can understand that another reason for not seeing giants like this in Nature is due to material and general physical problems like having bones snap and lungs collapse, but what real advantage is there in Zoids which break every rule of engineering that pertains to modern armour development?

Robots like this but the size of the animals they resemble, maybe. But to use these huge things as MBTs is a tad irrational, legs may be somewhat more mobile than tracks or wheels, but they are overcomplicated unless made from artificial muscle which again mimics nature but is still not fit for the job.

For coolness factor, mechs are great, but in reality they literally do fall flat on their faces unless we talk small robots or power armour.

Are there any real hints as to what they are made from such as this transparent "armour" they use for cockpit canopies?

[Straha]

And the Btech fan comes out.

Look I wont hold any delusions, BTech would have it's ass handed to it if it fought the Russians. The thing is the Russians could just keep on coming, kill 6 and then 30 more would take their place. THey used to clear out Mine Fields by running wave after wave over it. Even if you have a 100 ton Mech that could go as fast as you say, or turn as well you'd get destroyed from the 50 tank shells heading your way, and the mine fields already there.

Look the eastern front is a horror story for whoever is in the German shoes... leave it at that.

[SAMAS]

Ummm, the shapes of the animals they resemble work only at the scales and weights of the original animals. You do realize that, right?

Yes.

Well that's generally why you don't see giant mammals now, the biggest dinos were still miniscule in mass to these things and they didn't dart about too easy either.

I can understand that another reason for not seeing giants like this in Nature is due to material and general physical problems like having bones snap and lungs collapse, but what real advantage is there in Zoids which break every rule of engineering that pertains to modern armour development?

Robots like this but the size of the animals they resemble, maybe. But to use these huge things as MBTs is a tad irrational, legs may be somewhat more mobile than tracks or wheels, but they are overcomplicated unless made from artificial muscle which again mimics nature but is still not fit for the job.

For coolness factor, mechs are great, but in reality they literally do fall flat on their faces unless we talk small robots or power armour.

Are there any real hints as to what they are made from such as this transparent "armour" they use for cockpit canopies?

Definitely, but we're not here to discuss wether or not you can build something that big and still obey the laws of physics. Even though these Tank vs. Mech battles often degenrarate into that on the first Tanker's post.

In fact, that's the reason I came up with this, to see how they would rip into the Zoids' designs. Which is funny, because this is like the only debate where one side by default comes in with their Suspension of Disbelief turned firmly off.

But that's the way it is in Zi. Apparently, Zoids are halfway between modern manufactured weapons and wild creatures. Which is probably why tanks seem to be few and far between, if they exist at all, in Zoids. Why spent millions of dollars trying to design a vehicle, then Millions more fabricating materials and mass producing them, when you can just catch a Zoid, or use one of the many you already have, and control it's evolution to the desired effect? A few alterations to it's structute, some new guns, insert the Zoid Core, and you're done, as long as the testing holds out. And if you're lucky enough to have an Organoid(And I mean very lucky), it can be done for you in a matter of days.

An Example of Zoid Evolution


Slash Liger
Shield Liger ---> Blade Liger ---> Liger Zero --->Liger Zero X
Snipe Liger

[Darth Wong]

Suspension of disbelief does not mean suspension of thought, Samas.

Let's look at these moronically engineered machines:

1) Speed figures are ludicrous. Take your "Molga" unit for example: 2.95m tall and 200 km/h top speed. Do you know how to operate a calculator? Even if it covers its own height with each stride, that works out to 19 strides per second. Do you see them pulling 19 strides per second on TV? Pure bullshit.

2) Armour is not sloped. If you want to help a weapon penetrate, vertical armour is a great idea.

3) Weapons paradoxical; if they are kinetic and can knock over another Zoid from sheer momentum, then the recoil should know over the launching zoid. They must be rockets. If they're rockets, anti-tank guns on a much smaller platform should get the job done.

4) Utility of claws and talons: if you can breach a Zoid's armour with hardened talons and claws, modern anti-tank weapons should get the job done easily. Deal with it.

This is all in addition to the ridiculous notion of jumping around in dirt and mud on bipedal robot legs where humans have enough trouble. I have never heard a workable excuse for mecha fan-whore behaviour, and you don't appear to be setting any precedents.

[SylasGaunt]

Suspension of disbelief does not mean suspension of thought, Samas.

Let's look at these moronically engineered machines:

1) Speed figures are ludicrous. Take your "Molga" unit for example: 2.95m tall and 200 km/h top speed. Do you know how to operate a calculator? Even if it covers its own height with each stride, that works out to 19 strides per second. Do you see them pulling 19 strides per second on TV? Pure bullshit.

A molga doesn't stride it's got wheels IIRC.

2) Armour is not sloped. If you want to help a weapon penetrate, vertical armour is a great idea.

It's not like Zoids is the only series that has this problem, blame it on the fact that not everyone's a military buff or engineer.

3) Weapons paradoxical; if they are kinetic and can knock over another Zoid from sheer momentum, then the recoil should know over the launching zoid. They must be rockets. If they're rockets, anti-tank guns on a much smaller platform should get the job done.

Rockets and missiles are seperate weapons systems though.

4) Utility of claws and talons: if you can breach a Zoid's armour with hardened talons and claws, modern anti-tank weapons should get the job done easily. Deal with it.

All the truly effective claw weapons are powered and enhanced.

[Stormbringer]

Congratulations, Mecha-whore you missed the point. You're making nitpicks that have no real bearing on the facts. Just accept the fact that Mechs are unrealistic and they'd be owned by proper tanks.