Happy / Crappy Landings

[Lord Poe]

I can only provide two theories: Repulsor engines, since it's now in atmosphere, or, and I am leery of suggesting it, telekinesis.

Actually, listening to my own video, I'm reminded that the novelization mentions damaged thrusters being used.

[NecronLord]

Is it not a mite unfair to put a legendary feat of piloting that's spoken about for years after, thoughout the galaxy up against... err. Data & Troi?

Also. How do you know the Invisible Hand isn't intended to land? The Prequel Trilogy shows a lot of ships landing, including Core Ships and Venators. I would think that as a destroyer displacement craft, the Providence Class probably could land.

[(name here)]

It was most certainly not intended to lad when broken in half and on fire. A quick check of the ROTS ICS says nothing one way or the other, but it lacks landing craft. that said, it apparently has internal tensor fields, which are probably needed to land, given it's funny shape. The fields had failed by the time the engines and reactors broke off.

[Lord Poe]

It was most certainly not intended to lad when broken in half and on fire. A quick check of the ROTS ICS says nothing one way or the other, but it lacks landing craft. that said, it apparently has internal tensor fields, which are probably needed to land, given it's funny shape. The fields had failed by the time the engines and reactors broke off.

"Flying's no problem. The trick is landing, which, ah..." Anakin gave a slightly shaky laugh. "Which, you know, this cruiser is not exactly designed to do. Even when it's in one piece."

[NecronLord]

Humm. Curious. I wonder why. Given its ground troop content, I'd think being able to land would be worthwhile, and it doesn't seem to impinge on the combat ability of Venators.

[Lord Poe]

UPDATE: Looks like the Youtube Trektards have found the video now.

What's with this Trekkie bullshit about the saucer plowing THROUGH hills?

[(name here)]

That's the part that happens in the special edition they watch in their heads.

[Darth Servo]

UPDATE: Looks like the Youtube Trektards have found the video now.

I know wishfire. Rabid trektard and semi-Mindless Scooter cockgoblin from Startrek.com

What's with this Trekkie bullshit about the saucer plowing THROUGH hills?

Ant hills.

[chitoryu12]

I have a distinct feeling that WishfireOmega is related to Startrek.com's WishfireAlpha.

[Darth Servo]

I have a distinct feeling that WishfireOmega is related to Startrek.com's WishfireAlpha.

Yeah, I already pointed that out.

[chitoryu12]

I have a distinct feeling that WishfireOmega is related to Startrek.com's WishfireAlpha.

Yeah, I already pointed that out.

Ah. I'm stupid.

[Darth Servo]

I have a distinct feeling that WishfireOmega is related to Startrek.com's WishfireAlpha.

Yeah, I already pointed that out.

Ah. I'm stupid.

No, just didn't read.

[Lyzerious]

Man that vidio was good! I never thought of that before.

[Darwin]

I wonder how fast those terk ships were going.
how fast was the IH going anyway?

No idea. Another thing; the IH wasn't tumbling out of control, either, even though it had no drive engines left. It maintained a steady, upright course. Anyone have theories on that?

It must have still had repulsorlift units operational. It definitely still had inertial compensators and gravity deck still running, so this isn't much of a stretch. A big warship like that is bound to have some decent backup power reserves, so that half the ship can still operate for a while minus the main reactor. It just didn't have enough power to significantly slow its descent, which if typical for re-entry from orbit, should be at least Mach25 until it hit thicker atmosphere and slowed through friction.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Humm. Curious. I wonder why. Given its ground troop content, I'd think being able to land would be worthwhile, and it doesn't seem to impinge on the combat ability of Venators.

You controlled those variables how exactly? Do you have a ship of comparable profile, power, and volume with the same engines and guns, but no landing gear or troops that is equal in ability to the Venator-class? You have no basis for comparison.

[Lord Poe]

Man that vidio was good! I never thought of that before.

Keep in mind that an equally damaged Enterprise entered the atmosphere of Genesis in ST3, and completely burned up. You could see it melting as it entered.

EDIT. Here's the scene. Note the secondary hull and nacelles are still intact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHtJW0NxEjI

[drachefly]

That ship was self-destructing. They probably turned the SIF off for that, doncha think?

[Lord Poe]

That ship was self-destructing. They probably turned the SIF off for that, doncha think?

Only the saucer exploded. But that's my point - compare the damage to the Enterprise and Invisible Hand entering the atmospheres. They have comparable ship mass missing, yet I doubt anyone would survive a crash landing in a ship where the nacelles were already visibly melting.

[Darth Servo]

That ship was self-destructing. They probably turned the SIF off for that, doncha think?

The fact that trek ships need SIFs while SW ships do not only further proves the fact that SW ships are stronger.

[(name here)]

If i remember the ROTS ICS, the invisable hand had some way of gliding with deployed mini-wings.

[Teleros]

Didn't see much evidence for them in the movie though. There were some flaps and the like deployed IIRC, but they didn't seem big enough to have the ship glide on them.

[Surlethe]

I had simply assumed that they deployed the flaps to increase drag and slow the ship down.

[Connor MacLeod]

I watch that crash and wonder why they didn't evacuate everyone into the saucer section beforehand? Isn't that what it's there for? At a minimum, they could have had the people already evacuated in case they HAD to separate, so as to save time (and get away before the main part explodes.)

(I do know this is the least of the problems, that they could have evacuated the children and shit onto the saucer section and detached it before the battle, and they never did any of that oncec in all the years of TNG, but I was being generous and ignoring that inherent stupidity. Or why they carried familes when they were facing such severe dangers week after week to begin with...)

The Invisible hand only "breaks up" when it startts firing reverse thrusters in an attempt to slow down/control its own reentry, those stresses, coupled with the combat damage it suffered (which is talked about in both the ROTS:ICS and the ROTS novel) is what lead to the "shearing off" of the rear half. The fact that the tensor fields/AG was malfunctioning didn't help either.

It's also worth noting that the Separatist ships were not nearly as durably constructied as republic vessels, even setting aside the "atmospheric landing" feature (which would probably mean repulsors designed for use in an atmosphere, not just keeping it above a planet.)

[Lord Poe]

I watch that crash and wonder why they didn't evacuate everyone into the saucer section beforehand? Isn't that what it's there for? At a minimum, they could have had the people already evacuated in case they HAD to separate, so as to save time (and get away before the main part explodes.)

I think its been pointed out before, but isn't Sickbay in the saucer section? Why do we see it being evacuated? In TOS, Kirk said Sickbay was the most protected part of the ship.

The Invisible hand only "breaks up" when it startts firing reverse thrusters in an attempt to slow down/control its own reentry, those stresses, coupled with the combat damage it suffered (which is talked about in both the ROTS:ICS and the ROTS novel) is what lead to the "shearing off" of the rear half. The fact that the tensor fields/AG was malfunctioning didn't help either.

Yes, Anakin predicted the IH would tear itself apart in the novelization when the antigrav generators went offline. THe idiots trying to debunk the video by posting novelization quotes curiously steer clear of that quote.

For anyone interested, here's my defense of the video on Starfleet Jedi

It is interessting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline

If you actually watched and understood the video, which your PM to me shows you have trouble with), you'd notice quite clearly that the announcement was made that the helm control was offline. No evidence was "forged", jackass.

Both informations are important for the conclusion that the saucer has re-entered atmosphere totally uncontrolled.

Again, that's quite clear in the video. The completely undamaged saucer section was sent out of control by a....shockwave.

And now look at the Invisible Hand. Although - before breaking apart - she was more controllable than the Enterprise - and even after she was broken apart, Annakin could still steer her and could approach a runway to land her.

Ain't that amazing? It went through concentrated enemy fire, broke in half, had no drive engines to speak of, and was completely open to atmospheric re-entry....

...and still landed with more control than the undamaged saucer section.

Her hull was almost totally burnded of.

Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....

That observation is confirmed by the novelization

Which doesn't match the canon movie at all. (Don't you just love when two can play at that game?).

That proves non-ambiguous that the hull of the Enterprise is far tougher concerning the toleration of heat energy than the hull of the Invisible Hand.

All it proves it that despite it being in one piece (unlike the IH), despitre it being completely being undamaged and untouched by enemy fire (Unlike the IH), it still couldn't land under control and with zero damage to the bridge or bridge crew as the IH did.

And the crash of the Enterprise saucer was far more forcible than the landing of the Invisible Hand.

How? both slid to an upright stop. Except one was a whole and complete ship rendered inoperative by a...shockwave.

The latter has landed on a runway where she was steered to.

And the saucer landed in a nice, soft valley, as it was designed to do. THe IH was never intended to land on a planet. Much less half of it.

The strain on her structure at this crash was therefore far greater than the strain on the structure of the Invisible Hand at her landing.

Right. I guess being in one piece is a liability, then.

And the bridge of the Invisible Hand was mounted in a fashion to the ship that an impact shock wave from a landing wouldn't reach it because there was no direct assembly from the point of impact to the bridge.

Uh huh. Even though the IH bridge was sticking out on a crop from the hull that was burned away? Oops...

Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.

I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.

Thanks. It's idiotic rebuttals like this which remind me why I don't do this on a regular basis anymore.

I have not claimed that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline.

What are you smoking, today? Look at your own damned post, dishonest one:

It is interesting how good that clip shows that you are not only biased but you are even trying to forge evidence. Or is it coincidence that you have leaved out the scenes in which was said that helms control are offline

Jeee-zus.....

Yes - but - as I have said - the announcement that Data - after they were already slowed down by the atmospheric friction that they haven't created plasma anymore - has accomplished to re-route auxiliary power so that he could level their descent with only the lateral thrusters - were leaved out.

A lot of things were "leaved out(sic) of both examples. I wasn't about to post the last 25 minutes of Generations, or the first 15 minutes of ROTS I got to the point, which was the landing.

The damage it has taken by the enemy fire was superficial. Most of the IH was undamaged after it wasn't fired on her anymore.

Not according to the novelization you keep waving around.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

Quite dishonestly selective of you to dismiss the above.

And we have seen that the fire weapon that has reached the inside of the IH has not caused great damages.If that has damaged the structure of the IH, it would be even less robust as I have thought originally.

Not only had the Republic fleet hulled the IH in several places, but the internal explosions and the entire rear portion being open to atmospheric re-entry may have had something to do with it...

Please show me weapons fire of such extent that it realy could damage the structure of the IH.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

And the IH is broken appart only by the stress created by accelerating.

Incorrect; intellectually and intentionally dishonest of you.

"The gravity generators have desynchronized-they'll tear the ship apart!"

Her hull was almost totally burnded of.

Gee, I wonder what the ship landed on, then? I wonder why it didn't pancake like the Hindedburg when it hit the surface then? Hmmm....

I have said almost.[/quote]

Almost as in 3%, 10%, what? What did the IH land on, if it wasn't the hull? If the hull was so compromised as you are suggesting, it shouldn't have been able to handle the weight of the ship crashing.

Why doesn't it match the movie? The hull is clearly burning in the movie.

Patches of the hull were. But once it landed, as you can see in the very pictures you posted, the fires were already out. Mace's observation clearly doesn't match what we see in the movie. QED.

Because the Enterprise has crashed through several hills with far more speed than the IH has when it has landed on the runway.

The saucer DID NOT "crash through several hills". Quit making up evidence, please.

Can you give me a canonical evidence that the saucer of the Enterprise was designed to land?

Why would it need lateral thrusters in space, when it has impulse engines and stabilizers?

Fact is, that she is broken apart only while re-entering.

I guess the massive damage she took from the Home Fleet had noting at all to do with it, nor the fact that it wasn't designed to land, unlike the saucer section.

And show me canonical evidence that the IH was not designed to land although the Trade Fed ships, the Acclamators and the Venators are clearly designed to land. That pattern implies that the IH is designed to land - unless you have canonical evidence of the contrary.

"Flying's no problem. The trick is landing, which, ah..." Anakin gave a slightly shaky laugh. "Which, you know, this cruiser is not exactly designed to do. Even when it's in one piece."

Funny how you can't find this shit on your own...

And show me that the damage the IH has taken has really affected her structural integrity. It was not that massive.

As its shields failed, Invisible Hand began to roll, whirling like a bullet from a rifled slugthrower, trailing spiral jets of crystallizing gas that gushed from multiple hull ruptures. The rolling picked up speed, breaking the targeting locks of the ship's Republic adversaries. Unable to pound the same point again and again, their turbolasers weren't powerful enough to breach the
Hand's heavy armor directly; their tracking points became rings
that circled the ship, chewing gradually into the hull in tighten-
ing garrotes of fire.

It's funny how the saucer section was knocked out of control by an explosion behind it, and was thrust into the orbit of the
Veridian 3, while in ANH and ROTJ, rebel ONE MAN FIGHTERS and corellian freighters are able to keep control of their ships and land properly while DEATH STARS explode behind them...

[Bounty]

I think its been pointed out before, but isn't Sickbay in the saucer section? Why do we see it being evacuated? In TOS, Kirk said Sickbay was the most protected part of the ship.

There's a sickbay in the stardrive, mentioned in a few episodes (Descent and... some other one).

What's really silly is that the writers added in a stock "little children being evacuated OMG my teddy bear!" clip - even though there should nothing in the stardrive for a kid to visit.

And is it just me, or does the guy you're quoting there sound exactly the same as someone on SDN?