Questions Regarding Drakian Infantry...

[Big Orange]

OK, KlavoHunter, I'll fire away with this set of questions:

1) What uniform colour schemes does the Dominate use for it's military and law enforcement branches?

2) What is the standard rifle for the Citizen Force and Janissary Corps? What are their standard machine guns and grenades, etc?

3) Is the quality gap in terms of general equipment that wide between the CF and JC?

4) Even though the Citizen Force is taught to be semi-independent, can they march in rank like the more heavily drilled Jannis?

5) Do Drakian citizens serving in the War and Security Directorates have ceremonial dress uniforms, marching in political/martial parades ala Trooping the Colour and Nuremberg Rallies?

6) Are W-SS/USMC style camouflage smocks common?

7) At it's military height from 1936 up to 1946, how many infantrymen did the Dominate of the Drakia have?

[KlavoHunter]

OK, KlavoHunter, I'll fire away with this set of questions:

1) What uniform colour schemes does the Dominate use for it's military and law enforcement branches?

The Citizen military tends to wear khaki. Law enforcement, no idea.

2) What is the standard rifle for the Citizen Force and Janissary Corps? What are their standard machine guns and grenades, etc?

The Citizen Force uses, as of 1940, the T-9B Assault Rifle, firing the "8mm Hollbars" rounds (Which is in fact just a very hot-loaded 7.7x35mm Carbine cartridge, with spitzer bullet).

The Janissary Corps' primary rifle is the T-7B self-loading rifle. Assault units are armed with submachineguns, specifically the S-5, which was replaced by the S-6 in 1941. The NCOs in these assault units are typically armed with the T-10 Carbine, to provide longer-ranged support for their fellows.

The standard machinegun used by all Draka forces is the P-13A, which is basically a simplified Vickers MG firing 7.7mm Kurenwohr. At some point in the later war, though, Shep and I figure the Draka introduce a better MG, inspired by the German MG-42. Probably something fancy with selective rates of fire, between "Standard" ~500 RPM and "reallyfast" ~1300 RPM.

3) Is the quality gap in terms of general equipment that wide between the CF and JC?

Beyond stuff like AFVs and some small-arms, which tend to be different, the Draka's general equipment is more or less the same between the Citizen Force and Janissaries. Mortars, trucks, etc - it's all the same. The real difference between Citizen and Janissary forces is more a level of control. For instance, a Janissary Legion isn't going to have organic artillery beyond mortars and such - Citizen Forces are probably holding the leash on any 'real' artillery.

4) Even though the Citizen Force is taught to be semi-independent, can they march in rank like the more heavily drilled Jannis?

What do you think they're teaching them in those military schools they've been educated and trained in all their lives?

5) Do Drakian citizens serving in the War and Security Directorates have ceremonial dress uniforms, marching in political/martial parades ala Trooping the Colour and Nuremberg Rallies?

What good's being an aggressive militaristic state if you don't get to have pretty uniforms to march in parades with?

6) Are W-SS/USMC style camouflage smocks common?

Stirling's Citizens wore camouflage, I don't see why ours wouldn't.

7) At it's military height from 1936 up to 1946, how many infantrymen did the Dominate of the Drakia have?

Numbers. Ask Shep.

[Big Orange]

The Citizen military tends to wear khaki. Law enforcement, no idea.

In all the Drakafics it is so far stated that in the War Directorate the citizens wear green khaki while the serfs wear grey khaki. Why is this? And law enforcement in the Dominate would naturally be under the black umbrella of the Security Directorate and so would wear military khaki uniforms identical to what WarDir soldiers wear, except with different insignia and badges (but I like the thought of the Dominate retaining it’s British roots by still having police bobbies with boob hats ).

The Citizen Force uses, as of 1940, the T-9B Assault Rifle, firing the "8mm Hollbars" rounds (Which is in fact just a very hot-loaded 7.7x35mm Carbine cartridge, with spitzer bullet).

Judging from it's description and rough artwork, it looks more like a light machine gun with a telescopic sight and it is kinda of similar to the Lufwaffe assault rifle used by German paratroopers.

Assault units are armed with submachineguns, specifically the S-5, which was replaced by the S-6 in 1941.

Judging from descriptions the S-5 and S-6 are similar to the Soviet PPSh, with the compact stock and drum magazine that evolves into magazine clip (the S-5 has the drum ammo while the S-6 has a clip).

At some point in the later war, though, Shep and I figure the Draka introduce a better MG, inspired by the German MG-42. Probably something fancy with selective rates of fire, between "Standard" ~500 RPM and "reallyfast" ~1300 RPM.

The Drakans must’ve shipped many capture MG-42 units back to the Combines, after their deep forays into Northern Italy, Romania and Eastern Poland against the Jerrys.

For instance, a Janissary Legion isn't going to have organic artillery beyond mortars and such - Citizen Forces are probably holding the leash on any 'real' artillery.

Mortars pieces are still very deadly and in your recent fanfiction you have Janissaries manning most of the AA Flak guns (I guess they’re allowed to shoot down aircraft but barred from using Flak guns as direct fire artillery against enemy AFVs, defence emplacements and infantry).

What do you think they're teaching them in those military schools they've been educated and trained in all their lives?

S.M. Sterling stated that the Citizen Force was somewhat undisciplined in comparison to their non-Drakian equivalents, due to them not having a real class difference between officers and enlisted citizens, with independent thinking encouraged (not that it is a “bad” thing and they’ve got the Janissaries as the real regular infantry).

What good's being an aggressive militaristic state if you don't get to have pretty uniforms to march in parades with?

I read a really good fanfiction by Norseman (?) and they had scene where Marshal Kraznov is presiding over a massive Moscow parade with hundreds of artillery pieces, tanks and motorized infantry trundling past in perfect formation.

I imagine Archon’s plazas, avenues and parade grounds would hold host to similar military pageantry, with the Drakians trying to outdo the Soviets with their own tank parades, fireworks and air force flyovers. And Edwina Palme at a gothic podium surrounded by her dark uniformed entourage, under a search light, ranting away like a certain failed Austrian art student.

Stirling's Citizens wore camouflage, I don't see why ours wouldn't.

Between 1937 and 1941 only the paratroopers or other similar “specialist” soldiers would need real camouflage since it fits into real life comparisons of the arrogant, conquering WWII Germans painting all their vehicles a dove grey and draping Nazi flags over the bonnets or engine grills.

And the standard Drakian combat helmet in 1937 is the crappy Tommy helmet, but between 1939 and 1941 that is phased out by the more pragmatic paratrooper helmet that is adopted by all military and police branches.

[Norseman]

The Citizen military tends to wear khaki. Law enforcement, no idea.

In all the Drakafics it is so far stated that in the War Directorate the citizens wear green khaki while the serfs wear grey khaki. Why is this?

That's how it was in the books, and we didn't see any reason to change it.

What do you think they're teaching them in those military schools they've been educated and trained in all their lives?

S.M. Sterling stated that the Citizen Force was somewhat undisciplined in comparison to their non-Drakian equivalents, due to them not having a real class difference between officers and enlisted citizens, with independent thinking encouraged (not that it is a “bad” thing and they’ve got the Janissaries as the real regular infantry).

Uhm not quite, there's less emphasis on cadaver discipline, but marching together in formation is a very basic skill.

What good's being an aggressive militaristic state if you don't get to have pretty uniforms to march in parades with?

I read a really good fanfiction by Norseman (?) and they had scene where Marshal Kraznov is presiding over a massive Moscow parade with hundreds of artillery pieces, tanks and motorized infantry trundling past in perfect formation.

"Mission to Moscow" and yes it was one of mine.

I imagine Archon’s plazas, avenues and parade grounds would hold host to similar military pageantry, with the Drakians trying to outdo the Soviets with their own tank parades, fireworks and air force flyovers. And Edwina Palme at a gothic podium surrounded by her dark uniformed entourage, under a search light, ranting away like a certain failed Austrian art student.

There's a scene in the books where you see exactly what it's like. Though that was a victory parade.

[Zor]

While this not exactly infantry, i was wondering. Do the Snakes have a Katyusha Analogue, like a Trevithick Steamtruck with a rocket launcher on the back? I have not seen anything to effect of them in the writers bible so was that technology ignored or was it just shep thought not important enough.

Zor

[KlavoHunter]

While this not exactly infantry, i was wondering. Do the Snakes have a Katyusha Analogue, like a Trevithick Steamtruck with a rocket launcher on the back? I have not seen anything to effect of them in the writers bible so was that technology ignored or was it just shep thought not important enough.

Zor

The Draka don't have the fixation on rocketry that the European powers, especially the Germans, had. After all, stuff like the V-2 was only developed because Germany was barred from building 'superguns' like the Paris Gun.

Shep and I postulated, though, that there'd probably be some rich brilliant Citizen who screws about with rocketry in his spare time, and it eventually ends up weaponized into some form of Army Group-level missile, ranging to perhaps less than 100 miles? Perfect for trying to hit that rail yard where your enemy's reinforcements are coming through, or trying to strike it big on an ammunition dump!

As far as a Katyusha analogue goes, I don't know. I suppose it -makes sense-, seeing as everyone else copies the Russians/Germans in battlefield rocketry in some fashion. Given the Draka proclivity for copying everything in sight, they probably -would- have such a thing later in the war.

[PeZook]

S.M. Sterling stated that the Citizen Force was somewhat undisciplined in comparison to their non-Drakian equivalents, due to them not having a real class difference between officers and enlisted citizens, with independent thinking encouraged (not that it is a “bad” thing and they’ve got the Janissaries as the real regular infantry).

I haven't read the books, but, uh...

Discipline as a function of class difference between officers and enlisted men? That guy has some spiffy theories about military organization, I tell you.

[KlavoHunter]

I haven't read the books, but, uh...

Discipline as a function of class difference between officers and enlisted men? That guy has some spiffy theories about military organization, I tell you.

It is true, though, they can't operate on the older model of "Officers are gentlemen, enlisted men are criminals and scum", because all Draka Citizens come from roughly the same position in life - the aristocracy. And they're all brought up and taught to see themselves that way, rather than any special training the officers get to be "Better" than their subordinate enlisted men.

It creates a very different sense of camaraderie amongst the Citizen Force than any other modern-organized army has.

[Norseman]

Actually it seems that the Drakan organisation is, deliberately or not, very similar to that of the Waffen-SS. They also encouraged cameraderie between officers and men, and promoted men from the ranks. Nevertheless many Waffen-SS units were elite, and certainly capable of basic military tasks.

Anyway here Drakan Military this is from the appendices to the books.

BTW if we're really lucky Stirling might come on over. He showed up at DS.

[Vehrec]

I don't know if I'd call that lucky. Some aspects of the Drakaverse are really poorly thought out. Not sure I'd ever want to read those books.

[Norseman]

I don't know if I'd call that lucky. Some aspects of the Drakaverse are really poorly thought out. Not sure I'd ever want to read those books.

You could tell him yourself.

At any rate there was a huge technical debate about his writings, but it's currently gone. There's still the google cache but that's cumbersome.

It didn't really go Stirlings way untill the very end, when the debate shifted to logistics. He worked as a longshoreman so he knows quite a bit about pre-containerization packing and stowing. So he got the last word if nothing else. It was a very interesting discussion, so it's a pity that it's gone.

[KlavoHunter]

You could tell him yourself.

At any rate there was a huge technical debate about his writings, but it's currently gone. There's still the google cache but that's cumbersome.

It didn't really go Stirlings way untill the very end, when the debate shifted to logistics. He worked as a longshoreman so he knows quite a bit about pre-containerization packing and stowing. So he got the last word if nothing else. It was a very interesting discussion, so it's a pity that it's gone.

Seeing as there's a backup of DS.net dated to February, all of the discussions with Mr. Stirling are intact, as soon as Marina rehosts the site.

[PeZook]

It is true, though, they can't operate on the older model of "Officers are gentlemen, enlisted men are criminals and scum", because all Draka Citizens come from roughly the same position in life - the aristocracy. And they're all brought up and taught to see themselves that way, rather than any special training the officers get to be "Better" than their subordinate enlisted men.

No modern army works on that model, and the best units always encourage cameraderie between officers and enlisted men, to a larger or lesser degree. Discipline was always based on respect towards commanding officers or fear, the former being far more effective. So it doesn't really compute that the Citizen Force should be undisciplined compared to non-drakian armies, especially since they're used to drill and military lifestyle from a young age.

It creates a very different sense of camaraderie amongst the Citizen Force than any other modern-organized army has.

Norseman already gave an example of the Waffen SS - the esprit the corps may be different in nature for Drakian armies, but it doesn't follow that discipline will suffer if officers are seen as equal to enlisted men.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I'd still like to know from Stirling why Drakan women seem to munch more rug than malfunctioning vacuum cleaners, while every man is straight as an arrow. Apparently their whole Neo-Spartan ideal of squad camaraderie doesn't swing the original Spartan way.

Also why there are no ugly Drakas- I mean, I know they're all superbly athletic, but you never see 'A tall, muscular, tanned, mannish, acne-scarred, horse-faced Draka'. Not everyone can be a picture of Adonis or Aphrodite, no matter how much they work out.

I mean, other people have covered all the historical/technical eyebrow-raisers in the books, but those two are still a bit of an enigma.

[PeZook]

I'd still like to know from Stirling why Drakan women seem to munch more rug than malfunctioning vacuum cleaners, while every man is straight as an arrow. Apparently their whole Neo-Spartan ideal of squad camaraderie doesn't swing the original Spartan way.

Probably because the whole series is wank, so there's a lot of wanking material everywhere

Also why there are no ugly Drakas- I mean, I know they're all superbly athletic, but you never see 'A tall, muscular, tanned, mannish, acne-scarred, horse-faced Draka'. Not everyone can be a picture of Adonis or Aphrodite, no matter how much they work out.

My theory is that they kill all the ugly babies. It won't make them any more evil than they already are, anyway, so why not?

[frogcurry]

Also why there are no ugly Drakas- I mean, I know they're all superbly athletic, but you never see 'A tall, muscular, tanned, mannish, acne-scarred, horse-faced Draka'. Not everyone can be a picture of Adonis or Aphrodite, no matter how much they work out.

More importantly, there's no significantly short or ashmatic Draka that I've noticed. And inevitably you are going to get some.

[KlavoHunter]

I'd still like to know from Stirling why Drakan women seem to munch more rug than malfunctioning vacuum cleaners, while every man is straight as an arrow. Apparently their whole Neo-Spartan ideal of squad camaraderie doesn't swing the original Spartan way.

Wrong. There's plenty of gay, or bi male Draka, too. We just don't want to write about them in detail because everyone agrees that lesbian sex is nicer to read about. Unless you -want- us to write in graphic detail about Citizen John slamming Citizen Joe's ass.

Also why there are no ugly Drakas- I mean, I know they're all superbly athletic, but you never see 'A tall, muscular, tanned, mannish, acne-scarred, horse-faced Draka'. Not everyone can be a picture of Adonis or Aphrodite, no matter how much they work out.

A fair point. Maybe I'll try and write in an ugly Draka just for you?

More importantly, there's no significantly short or ashmatic Draka that I've noticed. And inevitably you are going to get some.

Words for you. Minimal. Standards. The US Army of WW2 didn't accept extremely short soldiers, nor ones with asthma. The Draka won't either.

You're not going to find a really short or asthmatic Citizen in a military position. And sure enough, all of Stirling's Draka books are written with members of the military as the Point-Of-View characters.

[Norseman]

I'd still like to know from Stirling why Drakan women seem to munch more rug than malfunctioning vacuum cleaners, while every man is straight as an arrow. Apparently their whole Neo-Spartan ideal of squad camaraderie doesn't swing the original Spartan way.

Wrong. There's plenty of gay, or bi male Draka, too. We just don't want to write about them in detail because everyone agrees that lesbian sex is nicer to read about. Unless you -want- us to write in graphic detail about Citizen John slamming Citizen Joe's ass.

I actually included a pair of gay Draka in one of my older stories, if anyone's interested. I wasn't explicit about it, but there's a couple of fairly big hints, if you know what to look for.

[Big Orange]

I actually included a pair of gay Draka in one of my older stories, if anyone's interested. I wasn't explicit about it, but there's a couple of fairly big hints, if you know what to look for.

Was it the really good fanfic where Georgian partisans, armed with Soviet weapons, ambush and destroy a small armoured Drakian collumn?

[Norseman]

I actually included a pair of gay Draka in one of my older stories, if anyone's interested. I wasn't explicit about it, but there's a couple of fairly big hints, if you know what to look for.

Was it the really good fanfic where Georgian partisans, armed with Soviet weapons, ambush and destroy a small armoured Drakian collumn?

It was in that collation, it's the two snipers hunting the Georgian.

[Big Orange]

It was in that collation, it's the two snipers hunting the Georgian.

Yeah, I knew something was happening between those two Drakian special-ops commandos...

How come the Drakians are sexually liberal, yet highly authoritarian at the same time? I imagine a female citizen who is a NCO in the Janissary Corps would have a sexual fling with one or more of her men under her command...

[Norseman]

It was in that collation, it's the two snipers hunting the Georgian.

Yeah, I knew something was happening between those two Drakian special-ops commandos...

How come the Drakians are sexually liberal, yet highly authoritarian at the same time? I imagine a female citizen who is a NCO in the Janissary Corps would have a sexual fling with one or more of her men under her command...

No! That is micegenation and is punishable by death!

Mind you I was thinking of including a subplot (in journey through the dominate) where a woman stands trial for that crime. It's gotten all the way to the supreme court. See she was pegging him, her lawyers are arguing the spirit of the law (prevent pregnancy) while the prosecution is arguing the letter.

It'd be a very interesting case, if she won then sterilized serfs would also be legal!

[Big Orange]

No! That is micegenation and is punishable by death!

Male citizens would get away with porking any serf of any sex or age, but female citizens would be more careful - I wonder why they all ended up so horny (unless it's a widely worn sterotype presented by military/police Draka and they only represent a particular percentage of the overall Drakian population). I can say a female Drakan could have a half-serf child, but when she's a POW in enemy territory (Allied or Soviet soldiers would take more pity on her).

And I wouldn't say Drakians would be that uniformally attractive - I would say most female Drakans serving in the War and Security Directorate services would be blunt faced and rather plain looking, with not much make up and cropped/shaved/bundled hair styles. And Danial Craig would be what Drakan male soldiers/cops would typically look like, if they trained most of their childhood and adolescent lives.

[KlavoHunter]

I can say a female Drakan could have a half-serf child,

WHAT? No, ABSOLUTELY not!

[PeZook]

WHAT? No, ABSOLUTELY not!

What if they couldn't tell?