School Uniforms hypothetical.

[Molyneux]

I did a search for topics on school uniforms, but none apropos to this came up; sorry if I missed a relevant one.

This thread is inspired by the current story arc in El Goonish Shive - the question at hand being that if a public high school in the United States implements school uniforms, would, say, a female student averse to wearing skirts have a legal leg to stand on if she insisted on wearing the male uniform? And moreover, whatever the legal situation - should a student have the right to choose to wear the other gender's uniform, as long as it is a valid school uniform that they're wearing?

Personally, I can't see any reason the school would have authority to denote different uniforms for students of differing genders, but - what does everyone else think?

[Zablorg]

Interesting. Legally, probably not, as it is their institution and they can do what they like. But I do think that they should be able to wear the uniform of the other gender, as it would still identify them with the school, which is the whole point if I recall correctly.

[Lord Pounder]

Can't speak for others but here in Belfast where a school uniform is the norm the uniform for females is usually designed to incorporate a skirt or trousers, beyond that a blazer, shirt and tie is pretty unisex anyway.

[Zablorg]

It's pretty much the same at my school. But I think for the sake of argument we are going to assume that this school has a distinct gap between gender when it comes to uniform.

[Molyneux]

It's pretty much the same at my school. But I think for the sake of argument we are going to assume that this school has a distinct gap between gender when it comes to uniform.

Well, in EGS, the uniforms were:

Male:
White collared shirt, black pants.

Female:
White collared shirt, black vest, black skirt.

The sticking point for the defiant character in question is the skirt, I believe, so this could maybe be simplified to: Can a school force female students to wear skirts rather than pants, and vice versa with males? Should it have that ability?

[Cairber]

I hated being forced to wear a skirt. My bus got to school too late to change once there (we were the last drop offs since private schools came after public and you got stupid demerits for being 30 seconds late) so, during the winter, I always ended up with that ichy feeling on my legs from the cold. I would sometimes wear sweatpants under the skirt but I looked like a complete idiot running to homeroom and stripping them off in the hall as I went.

But, my experiences aside, I assume if the school is private they probably have a right, at least in the USA, to require skirts.

Should it be required? No, I think girls should be afforded the same comfort and warmth as boys. You ever try wearing tights for 8 hours?

[Molyneux]

You ever try wearing tights for 8 hours?

Sadly, I lack the figure for 'em.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Depends, do schools have to hold to the same anti-discrimination laws as any other location?

If so, then yes, she does have a leg to stand on, because requiring the females to wear one type of clothing, and the males to wear another is discrimination on the basis of gender.

My opinion: Have everyone wear pants and/or shorts and have done with it, everyone's equal, and the 'uniforms' are truly uniform. Every restaurant I've been to and/or worked at already has that sort of policy and the world hasn't ended, why not the schools as well?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Should it be required? No, I think girls should be afforded the same comfort and warmth as boys. You ever try wearing tights for 8 hours?

I'll do you one better: Try wearing a lycra bodysuit for ten hours straight with more or less constant physical exertion outside in temperatures ranging from 40 to 115 and weather ranging from humid and sunny to thunderstorms. As bad as some school uniforms may be, they don't hold a candle to certain types of theatre.

[sketerpot]

I don't object to school uniforms per se, but rather to the often asinine designs that they choose. To use your EGS example: the vests make no sense and don't go with any weather for which short skirts would be appropriate, the skirts are impractical for the reasons that Cairber mentioned, and what the hell is up with the sphere-plus-cone look of the sleeves on the ladies' uniforms?

I want some school to start requiring uniforms that are actually cool: snazzy and practical. Or even do something weird and unexpected, like requiring that all students wear kilts. That would be too cool.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I want some school to start requiring uniforms that are actually cool: snazzy and practical. Or even do something weird and unexpected, like requiring that all students wear kilts. That would be too cool.

*Proper* kilts too, none of this pre-made bullshit. Teach the kiddies how to properly bunch and fold the cloth so it stays up and fits properly, they'll learn the basics of some useful domestic skills in the process.

[bilateralrope]

Personally my high school (a public school in New Zealand) had uniforms, and the one time someone complained about the uniforms they were told that wearing them was a condition of attending this school. If they didn't like the uniforms, and could convince their parents, they were free to attend the other high school across town (the public transport did make this a viable option). So it was a case of our parents agreeing that we would wear the uniforms.

Females also got to chose between wearing a skirt or trousers year round. When I had two years to go there the girls trousers got changed to a set that were apparently very hideous, which meant that I never saw anyone wearing them for the next two years.

However in the EGS case the uniforms were announced to the student on the Wednesday, issued to the students on the Friday and became mandatory on the following Monday. While this doesn't say anything about the sexist attitude of the uniforms, it does make me think that the entire uniform implementation is questionable.

Here is the thread on the EGS forums discussing this issue.

[Adrian Laguna]

In Venezuela we have national uniforms. Not kidding here, every single school, private or public, in the whole country has the same uniform. Basically it's black shoes, dark (navy?) blue pants or blue jeans (mutually exclusive), red shirt for pre-schoolers, white shirt for primary school, baby blue shirt for the first three years of secondary, and beige shirt for the last two years of secondary. Each institution is allowed to require a small logo in the upper right of the shirt. Note that it's a specific shade of each colour, and I think the cloth is specified too. It makes shopping for school very easy.

It helps that we have nice weather year round in most of the country, though parts of Merida are can get cold enough to get snow on occasion (yes, snow in the tropics, thank you Andes Mountains). So that's why the material for the shirts breathes easily and is a worthless insulator. If you're cold sweaters are allowed, my sister usually had one on permanently. The uniforms is pants for both girls and boys. I think some places allow/require skirts for girls, but don't quote me on that.

[Vehrec]

I object to the conformational mentality that is associated with uniforms, especially in an environment that ought to be teaching independent critical thinking. (let me dream, OK?)

[Feil]

Requiring girls to wear skirts is the next best thing to abusive. A garment that restricts the ability to run, offers zero protection against cold weather, and is often deliberately sexual (on minors!) should not be worn except by the individual's choice. It's bad enough when fundyfuck parents make their daughters wear them all the time (in Maine, where the temperature can go days without going above -20C), but to institutionalize it in a state-run institution should be illegal.

[Sarevok]

Uniforms are nice. When I was at a school without uniforms I had to decide on what to wear everyday. But with uniforms everyone is ok looking no matter bad their fashion sense is.

[Akhlut]

I've gone to school to two Catholic schools (middle school and high school) and both genders had the same uniform, except that girls had the option of wearing a skirt if they so desired. However, the girls usually wore the pants once they got into high school. Hell, I don't even recall seeing a girl in a skirt after middle school.

At anyrate, I think that except in the most bass-ackward places in the West, nigh every school requiring uniforms would allow girls to wear pants instead of skirts.

[Akhlut]

I object to the conformational mentality that is associated with uniforms, especially in an environment that ought to be teaching independent critical thinking. (let me dream, OK?)

Have you been to a school that requires uniforms? Just because one wears a uniform doesn't mean that one's ability to think independently is quashed. Everyone I knew in the schools I went to were still the same people they were before they went to a school without a uniform. Aside from drastically reducing the amount of money needed for school clothes and preparing children for working at places that have dress codes, the uniforms did approximately shit for any other changes in most individuals.

[K. A. Pital]

Uniforms aren't "conformational mentality", they're just a utility thing.

You don't have uniforms in university, where people self-dress, but in school it spares a whole lot of trouble for both kids and moms. At least where I live.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I object to the conformational mentality that is associated with uniforms, especially in an environment that ought to be teaching independent critical thinking. (let me dream, OK?)

I don't know, if your ability to think independently is thoroughly hampered by the clothes you wear, I think you're placing far too much importance in the clothes you're wearing. In that case, uniforms would be even more helpful as it would 1) help teach the superficial kiddies that independent and critical thought is not tied to the clothes you wear, and 2) in the real world, if you want to be able to support yourself financially, you damn well better get used to wearing uniforms, as most lower level jobs that a vast majority of people will have to spend at least a few years in require it.

Couple that with the fact that a lot of kids will divide themselves into occasionally violently opposed cliques based on the clothes they wear (to stereotype: Rich, polo-wearing preppies, jocks, farm-boys, the grungy poor kids, etc), uniforms remove that source of social exlusivism.

I used to be rather opposed to uniforms as well, until I realized how pathetically superficial my reasons were.

[Vehrec]

I object to the conformational mentality that is associated with uniforms, especially in an environment that ought to be teaching independent critical thinking. (let me dream, OK?)

I don't know, if your ability to think independently is thoroughly hampered by the clothes you wear, I think you're placing far too much importance in the clothes you're wearing. In that case, uniforms would be even more helpful as it would 1) help teach the superficial kiddies that independent and critical thought is not tied to the clothes you wear, and 2) in the real world, if you want to be able to support yourself financially, you damn well better get used to wearing uniforms, as most lower level jobs that a vast majority of people will have to spend at least a few years in require it.

Couple that with the fact that a lot of kids will divide themselves into occasionally violently opposed cliques based on the clothes they wear (to stereotype: Rich, polo-wearing preppies, jocks, farm-boys, the grungy poor kids, etc), uniforms remove that source of social exlusivism.

I used to be rather opposed to uniforms as well, until I realized how pathetically superficial my reasons were.

Fine, you caught me. The real reason I hate uniforms is because none of them have options for Hawaiian shirts. Are you quite happy?

[bilateralrope]

Aside from drastically reducing the amount of money needed for school clothes

I don't know about you, but my school uniform was significantly more expensive than the clothes I would of been wearing otherwise. And while I was at high school parts of the uniform were changed several times. Without exception the new pieces bought in were more expensive than the old pieces.

So why do you say that uniforms reduce how much the school clothes cost ?

[sketerpot]

I don't know about you, but my school uniform was significantly more expensive than the clothes I would of been wearing otherwise. And while I was at high school parts of the uniform were changed several times. Without exception the new pieces bought in were more expensive than the old pieces.

This provides further confirmation of my theory that kilts would make a good school uniform. You can fold a really big piece of cloth and somehow get a great kilt; it doesn't get much cheaper to make than that.

[andrewgpaul]

Aside from drastically reducing the amount of money needed for school clothes

I don't know about you, but my school uniform was significantly more expensive than the clothes I would of been wearing otherwise. And while I was at high school parts of the uniform were changed several times. Without exception the new pieces bought in were more expensive than the old pieces.

So why do you say that uniforms reduce how much the school clothes cost ?

You appear to be the exception, it seems. Speaking from my experience, black trousers, a white shirt and black shoes are about as cheap as it gets, clothing-wise. The only uniform-specific item required was the tie - one of those lasted several years.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Fine, you caught me. The real reason I hate uniforms is because none of them have options for Hawaiian shirts. Are you quite happy?

Wow, I seem to have hit the rightious indignation button there. You might want to ask yourself *why* you're getting your panties in such a wad when someone casts doubt on your reasoning.

You said you were against school uniforms, and you stated why. Someone points out how your reasoning is somewhat flawed, and you don't even attempt to defend yourself, you simply lash out bitterly. The question is, if your points are so indefensible, what gives you any right to take umbrage when someone else points that fact out?