40K misc numbers and analysis thread

[Shadowtraveler]

EDIT: Then again, you can only aim four foward....

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay I finally decided to start covering BFG. Mainly because alot of the data in here will become relevant much further down the road, especially in my novel references, and I want to lay out the variables early as I can. No calcs right now, though. That'll come later (I'd really like to finish up Ghostmaker and move on to other books.)

Page 6

The actual base of a ship model represents very close range around the ship, no more than a few thousand kilometers.

I suppose this migth give one person a way to "measure" ranges or such based on game stats, but I prefer to think of it as giving us the idea of what passes for "short" or "point blank" ranged combat.

Page 8

Massive beweaponed battlecruisers joust with lances of fusion fire.

Mention of "fusion" lances, in contrast to the latter-mentioned "laser" lances. Presumably this means "fusion" in the context of melta/thermal weapons, rather than "nuclear" fusion.

Page 8

"They [battleships] can absorb tremendous amount of damage and mount weapons batteries capable of laying waste to entire continents.

This implies firepower on the order of tens or hundreds of teratons minimum (for weapons batteries.), though it depends heavily on the size of the continent and what "laying waste" means. Vaporizing a continent, ,for example, could go well up into the e10-e11 range (like with the Eclipse superlaser.) It can be taken to mean "teraton/petaton" range in any case.

Timeframe is also not specified, but in context it would seem to refer to a "single shot" capability, since any weapon in theory could achieve those results given enough time. (also earlier sources like Space fleet use a "per shot" context in describing the capability of the Emperor-class Battleship's weapons, so one could reason it carries over.) Or at worst, a short period of time (far less than exterminatus, in any case)

Page 8

Note that for reasons of brevity, battleships and cruisers are often grouped together under the general heading of capital ships, a term which applies to all ships of both types.

Cruisers and battleships both (including light cruisers) are classified as "capital ships". Note that htis is relevant for later, parrticularily in Exterminatus calcs.

Also, it is worth noting that there are no "hard and fast" lines between classes - some frigates are as massive as small cruisers, and some cruisers are comparable to small battleships, for example.

Page 9

Vessels can potentially move faster [than their speed characteristic] but the additional power output needed will divert energy from weapon systems. The Chaos cruiser has a slight edge in the Imperial one in terms of speed.

This is kind of "gameplay", but in it is also "in-universe" given the terminology. Its importance is that it indicates that Imperium warships in combat do not always devote the full power of their ships reactors to just guns - they also maintain a not-insignfiicant degree of manuverability. Though they can increase weapons power at the cost of thrust, and increase thrust at the cost of firepower, even in-game.

Page 9

Nearly all ships are protected by powerful force field generators that can absorb or shunt aside incoming hits.

Description of the operation of a ship's defensive shields, presumably the "void shields", though it may or may not include powerfields. They both absorb and redirect weapons fire (both possessing a deflective and a absorption and retransmission function.) In context, this makes sense. Redirecting or deflecting as much of the energy away cuts down on how much has to be absorbed. Indeed, the small amoutn "absorbed" would be from the process of redirecting the incoming fire away from the ship.

Page 9

Few vessels mount any rear facing weapons - their engines are too massive and the thermal "backwash" they create makes targeting almost impossible.

Rearward-firing weapons on a starship are rare or nonexistent because of the size of the engines and their hampering of sensors. Note that this is probably a minor issue, since engines like that probably could qualify as weapons themselves (Though no 40K captain ever lets an enemy into his rear section if he can help it.)

Page 10

The truly massive stellar warships are almost impossible to comprehend in their complexity, with thousands of crew
members...

"stellar warships" carry at least "thousands" of crew members. It is not specified as to which kind of ship it is, but one might infer that it could be at least cruisers, if not destrroyers/frigates. (probably not battleships, since they carry "tens of thousands", and heavy cruiser scarry 10,000 as per Execution Hour.)

Page 11

All Ahead full: A ship going All Ahead Full directs more power to its engines to produce an extra burst of speed, gaining an extra 4d6cm of movement. Its weapons are reduced to half effectiveness and the ship may not turn while moving under this order.
...

Burn Retros: The ship directs additional energy to its retro thrusters in order to kill some of its forward momentum and hold position. Again, this reduces the firepower and strength of a ship's weaponry but the vesel can burn more sharply, thereby using the retros to turn on the spot.

Lock On: The ship maintains a steady course and draws additional energy from its engines to fire its armament in multiple salvoes.

This is the more "game oriented" description of what I alluded to earlier with regards to engines and weapons consuming reactor power. In combat, they balance power generation between weapons and engines, but under circumstances, they can and will divert power from one system to another, at least temporarily, to boost its effectiveness.

Page 11

The captain of the vessel orders his crew to brace for impact; power is redirected to the shields, blast doors are slammed shut and the crew hang onto something secure.

...

firing is reduced to half effect and it may not use any other special orders in its next turn (the crew need time to re-open its blast doors, redirect power, etc.)

This implies shields can consume power, but the exact amount is not specified (its implied to be enough to reduce firepower, though this may be due as much to crew allocation as to raw power.) Also note it refrences "redirecting" power.

Do note that shields will NOt consume energy unless they do work (A shield which dissipates most of its energy as waste heat is pointlessly stupid.), and under most cases only mass-based attacks are liekly to erquire alot of energy (if even then.). The only other reason for shields drawing more power is if they "cirrculate" some solid matter or have to be physically moved, accelerated, ,etc.

Page 16

The aft section of a warship is a mass of enormous drive tubes and vast engine compartments, filled with thundering machinery, that run for up to a third of the length of the ship.

Engines of a warship will consume up to a third of its length. If the length of a ship's engines are known, ,then its length can be derived (in an approximate fashion, at least.)

Page 18

Direct fire attacks include weapons such as lasers, fusion beams, and plasma launchers which when fired hit almost immediately, even across tens of thousands of kilometers.

Description of the "direct fire" weaponry. note "weapons batteries", which include railguns and missiles as well as fusion beamers, graviton pulsars, lasers and plasma projectors.")
minimum velocity is established as "tens of thousands of kilometers" (or nearly .1c) though its probably MUCH faster for most wepaons (lasers certainly, and probably plasma/particle beams, sincee plasma diffuses very quickly unless it moves at near-c. unless it is some sort of physical projectile.)

Page 19

Direct firing uses a ship's weapons batteries, lances, and
nova cannon

Direct fire weapons again are noted to be weapons such as "lancecs, ,nova cannon and weapons batteries."

Page 19

Enemies at close range pose a much greater threat than those thousands of kilometers away, so a shp will normally target the nearest enemy. However, a ship can always fire at whatver targets you like if it takes and passes a leadership test on 2d6 first.

Range seems to have an effect on the "danger" that a target represents. Presumably this has something to do with both accuracy and coherency of weapons fire (weapons battery broadsides are more accuate closer up, and some weapons like laser and plasma will lose effecitveness over range.)

Then again, some weapons like nova cannons and lances are probably more effective at longer ranges (being big, bulky weapons like they are.)

Page 20

Lances are incredibly high-powered energy weapons that are capable of burning straight through an armoured huull or cutting an escort ship in two. On Imperial and Chaos ships lances are usually mounted in huge turrets with quad or triple energy projectors that focus into a concentrated beam of destruction.

Lances seem to represent the "big/heavy" guns on a ship, the ones with the longest range and the biggest individual punch. They also seem to be a bit more versatile than weapons batteries, having cutting/piercing effects as well. Each lancec is also a multiple-projector mount that seems to have a death-star like "composite" beam effect, although preusmably they can fire them independently as well.

Page 20

Weapons batteries form the main armament of most warships, ensuring that much of their hull is pock-marked by gun ports and weapon housings. Each battery consists of rank upon rank of weaposn: plasma projectors, laser cannons, missile launchers, rail guns, fusion beamers and graviton pulsers. Weapons batteries fire by salvos, using a co-ordinated pattern of shots to catch the target in the iddle of a malestrom of destruction.

Weapons batteries seem to be the "medium/intermediate/secondary" guns on the ship. Smaller but more numerous than the massive dorsal turrets (like lancecs, but not alwayhs lances) they possess less range and power individually but possess alot of punch collectively.

Another detail worth noticing is that weapons battereis are perhaps the most diverse weapons around. However, not all ships will carry all those weapons at once. Some ships seem to carry only a couple of those, or maybe only one type (all lasers, or maybe lasers and plasma, or plasma and railgun/macro cannon, or lasers and missiles, etc.)

Third: given that weapons batteries are "direct fire" and "instantly hit" over "tens of thosuands of kilometers", and that such weapons include missiles and railguns, the minimum velocity of said missiles is at least 10%c. Railguns are at least as fast, and probably several times faster. (Same with macro-cannon, unless they're guided munitions.) If/when I get around to doing calcs for weapons, this will be highly relevant once some projectile masses are established.

Lastly, the need to coordinate weapons of different types and velocities, especially in large numbers (and coupled with their "medium" calibre relative to the big turret weapons) also means that their destructive capability at longer ranges is also more limited (fewer direct hits, or fewer concentrated hits.)

[Connor MacLeod]

andrew: If you still want to see the drawing of the Leviathan I was going by, PM me with your email address and I'll send you the image.

[Connor MacLeod]

Alright, this is a more calc-heavy partt of the continuing BFG entry... ugh I've been doing alot of calc pumping and calcing lately...

Page 21

the forty men pulled harder at the traversing chains, heaving the massive barrel of the macro-cannon into position amidst the clank-clank-clank of rusty gears.

....

When it was open, the others bent their backs to the loading winch, ,lowering the shell, which weighed several tons, into the heart of the cannon.

Capital ship "macro cannon", with a shell that weighs "several tons." Going with the "lower limit" velocity I established before of 20,000 km/s for "direct fire" weapons. At that mass/velocity, the KE of the projectile would be 4e17 joules, or just under 100 megatons. Assuming the 40,000 km/s velocity I conjectured, it goes up to ~400 megatons. This is definitely a lower limit. The mass can probably be MUCH higher (and is, ,given other sources. In Nightbringer they're hurling building-sized projectiles out to 300,000 km, and in Iron Hands they hurl shells "three times the size of a man." Both would mass FAR more than "several tons.")

If we assume "tens of thousands of km/s" refers to 100,000 km/s, and apply the same logic (railguns travelling faster than missiles.) and assume a 10 ton shell, the KE is 3e20, or around 70-80 gigatons of KE. Macro cannons, IIRC typically fire explosive warheadS (like bombardment cannons and nova cannon) so they may not rely on pure KE/momentum as the primary/only damage component. In this respect, lower KE/momentum probably would be a benefit, though it probably has a shorter range. Railguns probably are more "KE/momentum" weapons.

Note that given the "mass" of the shell, unless "several" means alot more than 2-3 tonnes, the weapon in question is far too light to be a reasonable anti-capship weapon. In "First and Only" and "Necropolis" the higher-end ground based macro cannons were flinging "multi ton" shells, and those are at best going to be titan grade in comparison.

I'd say it might be a point defense weapon, but the rate of fire would be slow, unless its designed to fire those proximity-detonation shells or something. Then again, this IS 40K, so it may be
some ships DO use point defense weapons like that.

Page 22

A Nova cannon is a huge weapon, normally mounted in the prow of a ship so that the recoil it generates can be compensated for by the vessel's engines. It fires a proejctile at incredible velocity, using graviometric impellers to accelerate it to close to light speed. The projectile implodes at a preset distance after firing, unleashing a force more potent than a dozen plasma bombs.

I would generally assume "close to light-speed" to mean at least 80-90% of C. The size of a Nova cannon shell is never given precisely, but the diameter of the shell is given in other sources (50 meters in Warriors of Ultramar, though a 30 meter diameter nova cannon is mentioned. Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A 50 meter diameter shell would be 100-150 meters long.)

Example: Going by a 50x150 meter shell made of iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive o funknown type and density) fired at ~90%of c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a KE of 9e25 joules, putting Nova cannons well into the petaton range (~21 petatons roughly here.) In the literature, Nova Cannons are implied to "charge up" for firing just after loading, implying that the gun is charged in a matter of seconds at most.

It is also interesting to note that the recoil generated needs to be compensated for by the engines. This suggests that the recoil/output of the Nova cannon is of comparable magnitude to the output/thrust of the engines. And if you know the specifics of one, you can probably estimate the other (IE figure acceleration from ship mass and the recoil of a Nova cannon.) Taking the shell example above, the momentum would be 4.77e17 kg*m/s. If the ship in question has a 5000 gee acceleration rate the ship itself masses somethign like 9.5 billion tons. A mass far greater than implied by a number of other sources, but I tend to believe 40K ship masses are dramatically under-stated in the vast majority of cases. Given the estimated accelerations from other sources like Sabbat Martyr or Grey Knights, and estimate the mass from starship dimensions, the output of engines for a cruiser/battlecruiser grade would be high TT/low petaton range easily (consistent with the "stellar scale" outputs mentioned in Execution Hour for warp engines, which aren't as energy intensive as the realspace engines as per Ravenor which does confirm the estimates.

The explosion of a Nova cannon shell ought to be at least comparable in magnitude ot the energy expended in getting the projectile to the target(s), which suggests its petaton range, if not significantly higher. Note that if this is the case, the energy density of the explosive, like plasma reactors, must be many many times greater than conventional nuclear fusion or even antimatter, for it to be equal to or greater than what a near-c projectile provides. Then again, 40K is not a stranger to "power sources with insanely high energy densities." either.

Note that "plasma bombs" is another term used in earlier sources for torpedoes, so this might imply that a Nova cannon is equivalent to a dozen torpedoes (a double salvo, in other words.) I do find it odd they say "force", as this implies that a Nova bomb detonation has some sort of blast/pressure effects like a conventional explosive (nuclear/antimatter warheads would not have blast effects, ,becuase the blast is a result of atmospheric detonations.) which may hint at some sort of exotic mechanism, perhaps like a seismic charge (or maybe a multi-function warhead). anyhow, this would imply plasma torpedoes are in the teraton range or so (double or triple) assuming a multi-petaton nova cannon.

One thing that bothers me about Nova cannon - why do they mount only a single cannon? Given the size/diameters of the weapon, and that virtually every other 40K weapon is usually a multiple mount (torpedoes, lances, and weapons batteries are all aggregates of multiple weapons.) but why not nova cannon? It would make a bit more sense to fire at least several shells (imrpove chances of hitting and coverage, ,for one thing, as well as giving the ability to engage multiple targets.) And it owuld make interception harder. (though the combined mass/velocity of the shell may already assure that.) Also, why not make it guided? They can make guided shotgun shells, bolter rounds, autogun rounds, guided tank and artillery shells. Hell weapons battery cannons and bombardment cannon are implied to use some sort of targeted/guided shell... but why not Nova cannon?


page 23

The weapons carried by some ships are powerful enough to reduce whole cities to plains of radioactive glass. Ships are armored and shielded in order to resist their savage caress,, hulls are heavily reinforced so that they can survive the horrific pounding of gigawatts of energy.

We actually hear about ships destroying cities in various forms (vaporizing, melting, ,etc.) quite often. Battleships, cruisers (or rather specific weapons on crusiers) and even frigates have been mentioned as capable of destroying cities with their weapons.

Cities can be quite lage too. Either fortress cities (like we see in 13th Legion and Ghostmaker) to Hive Cities (which span many tens or hundreds of kilometers in diameter minimum, and extend many kilometers both above and even under the ground). Hell, some planets have continent sized buildings (like Terra, but also some Hive Cities and Forge worlds do ). Destroying cities of that scale requires immense firepower.

Calculating it can be hard, given the variables involved, though"reducing cities to glasS" implies melting. Assuming a 10 km diameter city, composed of iron, 90% empty and with an average building height of 300 meters (with a fairly crowded density), it would take at least 5 gigatons or so to melt. Something larger (say 50 km in diameter, or about hive city size) that extends up ~ 5 km in height, as a cone, composed of iron and 90% empty) would take around 738 gigatons to melt. THat doesn't include anythign below ground - assuming a 200 meter depth into the rock, 90% empty, would be several times greater) would add around another 40-80 gigatons depending on composiition.

The "gigawatts of energy" is almost certainly an error, since its a ridicuously low-end output for 40K ship weapons (given that Exteminatus even at its absolute lowest for cruisers is double/triple digit GT/sec and a man portable meltagun is gigawatt range.) and energy is not measured in "watts". I'd take this to mean that 40K ships are meant to withstand "gigatons" of energy, which would be more consistent. (especialyl given the nature for macro cannon shells and torpedoes to ignore shields and penetrate before detonating - they're definitely gigaton range.)

Page 24

Blast markers represent all kinds of events - huge explosions, expanding shockwaves, intense radiation clouds, ,tumbling debris, unexploded warheads, plasma brusts, etc.

...

They show areas of tumultuous, strife-torn space

Game mechanics after a fashion, but its interesting to note what "blast markers" would represent on the 40K battlefield - "shockwaves" (implying some weapons generate them despite vaccuum, again like a seismic charrge), radiation (presumably like the dumping of absorbe denergy from void shields, but also starship explosions) debris, bombs, and plasma burts (either plasma cannon or plasma torpedoes, if not both - it suggests they are omnidirecitonal blast weapons either way.)


page 25

Ships are protected by powerful energy shields, so that they can survive travelling through space. The shields form a wavering band of energy around the vessel, a teardrop of invisible force that can absorb or deflect the worst excesses of stellar radiation and metor showers or a series of weapons hits. The amount of damage shields are able to absorb is limited and they will be overwhelmed by a sustained attack, forcing a temporary shutdown while the shield generators vent off the excess energy

Void shields on astarships are "teardrop shaped"

shields must also shut down while they vent excess energy. The reason for this has never been stated. Either the shields block such emissions (creating a temporary but dangerous vulnerability) or its simply a consequence of the design (it seems odd, but perhaps its designed so to avoid destroying the generator or damaging it.) Given that ships mount many shield generators to provide multiple layers of redundant protection,, its probably unlikely that the void shields themselves block the radiation process (however it works.), or if they do, they vent in such a way that other shields minimize the vulnerability.

It is worth noting that void shields are not *just* energy-absorbing devices. They can also "deflect" attacks, ,which suggests they redirect or disperse the energy of attacks so that the generators need only absorb part of it. This may explain the "teardrop" shape in some way - angled shields would help deflection, and the angle would be optimal in a "forward" configuration (which is where Imperium ships stick those heavy armoured prows as well.) The "absorbed" energy probably represents what the shields handle in the process of deflecting attacks

Page 25

Blast markers interfere with gunnery as mentioned earlier, disrupting firing and causing plenty of "ghost' images on the firing ship'
s sensors.

The phenomenon represented by "blast markers" represent some sort of sensor-disrupting measure, suggesting a potential means of electronic warfare. (which we see after a fashion in various novels, and in certain kinds of torpedo or nova cannon shell.) Void shields themselves seem to have a "EW-like" function in this respect, since their dumping/dispersing of attacks generates blast markers.

Page 27

The term ordnance is used to describe all kinds of weapons that are launched from ships and then travel independetnly to their target. This includes everything from missiles the size of skyscrapers to swarms of small attack craft such as fighters and bombers.

Missiles the size of "skyscrapers", though this seems to imply torpedoes rather than the "Weapons battery" missiles. These also must represent the battleship torpedoes, because cruiser grade are usualyl around 30-60 meters (100 meters at most.).

It's also implied that fighters are smaller than torpedoes, so its likely torpedoes mass more than fighters (hundreds of tons at least per torp, in other words, going by fighter masses from the Rennie BFG novels.) Fighters manned nature do make them more effective long-range strike weapons, ,and more reusable ones at that.

Page 28

The term "torpedo" has always been used ot describe any long-range missile carried by a spaceship. A typical anti-ship torpedo is over 200 feet long and powered by a plasma reactor, which also acts as a sizeable portion of its warhead, turning it inot a devastating plasma bomb. The area of a ship given over to the torpedo tubes is a massive space criss-crossed by lifts, hoists and gantry cranes for moving the huge missiles from the armoured magazine silos where they are stored to the launch tubes.

Once a torpedo is launched, the plasma drive propels the torpedo forward at high speed, whilst beginning an energy build up which will culminate in its detonation. torpedoes have a limited ability to detect a target and will alter course to interceept if they pass within a few thousand kilometres of a vessel.[/quote]

"typical" anti-ship torpedoes are around 60 meters long. They are also "plasma bombs", lending credence to the idea that nova cannon (at least the explosions) are equal to about a double salvo of torpedoes.

The torpedo is a "multi-stage" weapon, the plasma reactors themselves acting as a major part of its "warhead" (but not the only one.) Most sources will even suggest more stages (last second "boosters" to add more velocity, shaped charges designed to facilitate penetration of the hull, etc.) The torpedo can add its own kinetic energy and momentum to the attack as well, as torpedoes are designed to penetrate before detonating under most cases.

Torpedoes are apparently massive enough that they need lifts and cranes to help lift the torpedo in (unlike some guns, even nova cannon. Although one imagines there are SOME nova cannon that have such loading methods.)

Page 37

Squadrons may have all sorts of different names, such as formations, flotillas, packs, groups or forces, ,but they all work in the same way.

As I noted in my "CAves of Ice Battleship bombardment" analysis, 40K "squadrons" for ships go by other names, including flotillas and whatnot, but they mean the same thing (a certain number of ships.) This is useful for analysis involving such terminology (again, like the "Caves of Ice" analysis.)

PAge 43

Ships coming out of the warp must appear some distance away in deep space or risk destruction among the graviton surges in-sysem. many civilised worlds have specific jump points marked by beacons to assist navigation.

Gravity is speficied here as the primary reason that prevents ships from dropping from the warp in-system. Earlier sources give specific explanations (which will be covered as they come up), but we can draw certain conclusions form this fact:

First, a sufficiently strong gravity well will interfere with the transition to warp.Gravity is not strong enough to hpysically "harm" the ship, so the danger must be in gravity fouling up the warp transition in some manner (and the forces/energies in the transition destroying the ship itself.) It is implied though that a ship COULD emerge in-system from the warp unharmed, but that it's gambling the ship's destruction.

Second, while the vast majortiy of sources suggest that a ship must arrive "out system", this source implies that the ship must only appear "some distance away". Given the inconsistent distances given in some sources (tens of millions of miles in Eye of Terror as opposed to billions of km in Chaos Child, for example), ,its possible the "Warp limit" is not always a fixed quantity, and may vary according to the system (how strong of gravity wells it has, number and type of planets, etc.) and other factors (orbits and whatnot.) Perhaps, for example, "gaps" in gravity may appear where emergencee from the warp in-system is possible. But since detection of realspace from the warp (and vicee versa, save by psychic ability) is not possible in 40K, it would be virtually impossible to detect such without some sort of assistance or planning.

We do know that a number of smaller "warp-capable" devices (displacement devicecs like the dispalcement shields or Eldar Warp Spider packs.) as well as weapons (Warp missiles and vortex grenades/warheads.) as wlel as the Eldar Webway can work within a gravity well, so emergence within a gravity well should be possible. (perhaps they have to counteract the gravitational field.)

Page 46

Most planets have many small moons around them and most of these are no larger than generously sized asteroids. These rules are confined to dealign with larger moons several thousand kilometres in diameter.

The size of "moons" in Battlefleet gothic. note that this tends to confirm to the "close range" idea established before.
This may also be interpreted as to mean "moons" in BFG are by definition "several thousand kilometers", though that is admittedly stretching things.

Page 47

In battles close to the centre of a system, the presence of the local star has powerful effects on the ship's ability to detect other vessels. At extreme range, the glare of the sun will tend to obscure the energy signature of enemy vessels, making them difficult to target accurately. In close proximity, an opposing ship with the sun behind it is easier to pick out and track using reflection surveyors and image capture devices.

We're not told how "close" to the centre of a system "close" is, but the fact that a ship's own emissions can be "lost" admist the output of a sun at long ranges tends to suggest they don't leak much energy as a rule. (This cannot include high-energy uses like engine use, however.) Alterantely, 40K ships may have some form of active "shielding" that is designed to mask and redirect such emissions away from enemy sensors, making them harder to detect at range. (such cloaking shields areknown to exist, after all.)

Additionally, it does suggest from the "close in" example that they have some fairly sophisticated means of targeting (including optical ones as well as other sensor-based ones.) It also suggests there is a "blind spot" where 40K shisp have trouble targeting vessels in/around a sun. (a potential limitation, if avaguely defined one.)

[NecronLord]

Some other C'tan either spying on/interfering with the Deceiver, or perhaps trying to ally with him then? I dunno if I could see a conceivable benefit in pretending they were HIS because it would just draw attention to him.

Indeed. But we hardly know everything that goes on behind the scenes.

I thought hte Outsider was on that big ass Dyson Sphere? And that was feeding the Void Dragon on Mars? Maybe I misremembered.

Adept Cortsewain rants that the "Lord of Insanity" is its master. People (including myself in the past) have interpreted that to be the Outsider, but that'd mean (even disgarding Goto) we've a spare C'tan in White Dwarf. It's now my opinion that this 'Lord of Insanity' might be the Deciever, who's supposed, after all, to enjoy turning his victims (such as Corteswain) insane. Of course, it's all conjecture, anyway. Until the Dyson Sphere plot's elaborated on, it could be anything... An especially shiny Necron Lord, maybe.

It is kinda his MO, isn't it?

Something like that...

Cypher? Isn't he the Fallen Dark Angel?

That's the fellow. May be a good guy. May not be. I have the suspision we might find out in the next Heresy book.

That's odd. That would kinda suggest that either the Necrons lack the infrastructure to make their own in any great numbers, or they somehow lost and haven't found them yet. (OR, at least, the Deceiver hasn't.) That would probably also kill the notion they could build starships, I suppose.

On the other hand, that's the only *known* such facility...

It's worth noting that when that story was written, the C'tan concept was under development. It probably wasn't imagined that there were only four of them at the time, but rather, that particular 'necron master' had only what he'd been found with.

In any case, it's not as if the C'tan need much logical reason to do anything. 'Because it's fun' works for them just fine.

Do we know how many people they take per "visit?"

Nope. And I'd guess some of those were victories, too.

Then who was the Deceiver instilling into the Necrons he built on Skopios?

Who knows. Presumably there's an archive somewhere - they probably originally converted more than the 'millions' that seem to be active now, after all. Perhaps necrons can flit between bodies, like "hot-desking."

I'd imagine the bulk of those they "harvest" are ultimately food for the C'tan, but some aside fomr pariahs probably end up recruited or taken. They're supply of Necrons isn't infinite.

But I don't see why their minds necesserily have to die with them.

That could be. Although if they're "buried" they're either forces from "dead" C'tan who just haven't been found (although if any other than the handful or so known to have survived had hidden troops.. where'd they go after?) Or they just forgot or lost them.

The C'tan haven't called up everything they can yet. They're not out to kill everyone (can't enslave the dead. Unless you're nurgle...), after all, or even topple the Imperium. Their first priority appears to be chaos, followed by the eldar...

Then agian didn't the Nightbringer hide his ship ins ome other dimension (or did someone else do that to him?)

It was banished to the warp during a battle against a fleet of young races the Deciever had given its location to.

Haven't read that far yet, though I ermember it from "Storm of Iron" (which I actually liked.)

Storm of Iron was quite good, on the whole, but the whole 'vanish through a tear in space' made me dislike it...

Of course, , these are Daemonic entities, they can hardly be called the most objective and unbiased (or honest) individuals, especially when talking to "lesser" beings.

True.

[Lost Soal]

The 3rd Edition rulebook contains a description of an IoM Plasma Ioniser and this seems the right thread to post it.

Pg 282

90/110 Peta-Watt Open Core Plasma Ioniser
The 90/110 Peta-Watt Open Core Plasma Ioniser remains the most effective power generator in terms of pure energy output since its re-introduction by Magos Technis Voltar. Using time-honoured Coolant-infusion systems, this plasma reactor is capable of sustained use for 1.9x1056 hours before core compression factors exceed tolerable values. Exo-thermic residues equate to one part in five thousand, requireing isolation to be stabilised at roughly 1/126 spin ratio. With the open core plasma ioniser, an omophagic system vents ionised particulate matter through an electromagnetic shielded sub-chamber which in turn refines the plasma and allows it to be reinvested back into the main core. The plasma ioniser requires roughly fifteen thousand man-seconds maintenance/cycle.

Firstly, the power rating. This rating is actually in the right ball-park for the outputs calculated in this and other threads, probably a very fortunate accident on the writers part.
Its sustained use however, causes some problems. It can't mean the standard value of 1.9e56 hours, since thats basically infinite, similarly a actual multiplication would give a sustained use of just under 12 weeks which seems an obsurdly small time frame.
It appears to operate using a similar principle to a CHP cycle, sending waste particulate matter back into the generator. Our own CHP cycles generate efficiencies of upto 90% which may be an indication of this reactor as well.
Maintenance is 4.17 hours per cycle, how ever long a cycle is. Day, Week, Month or Year?

[Connor MacLeod]

The 3rd Edition rulebook contains a description of an IoM Plasma Ioniser and this seems the right thread to post it.

Pg 282

90/110 Peta-Watt Open Core Plasma Ioniser
The 90/110 Peta-Watt Open Core Plasma Ioniser remains the most effective power generator in terms of pure energy output since its re-introduction by Magos Technis Voltar. Using time-honoured Coolant-infusion systems, this plasma reactor is capable of sustained use for 1.9x1056 hours before core compression factors exceed tolerable values. Exo-thermic residues equate to one part in five thousand, requireing isolation to be stabilised at roughly 1/126 spin ratio. With the open core plasma ioniser, an omophagic system vents ionised particulate matter through an electromagnetic shielded sub-chamber which in turn refines the plasma and allows it to be reinvested back into the main core. The plasma ioniser requires roughly fifteen thousand man-seconds maintenance/cycle.

Gah! I already had this typed out to quote eventually! You beat me to it!

Firstly, the power rating. This rating is actually in the right ball-park for the outputs calculated in this and other threads, probably a very fortunate accident on the writers part.

It would probably be on par with a titan-grade constrcut, or a fighter/shuttle type of vehicle. Then again it might be a powerplant for some city ro whatnot.

Its sustained use however, causes some problems. It can't mean the standard value of 1.9e56 hours, since thats basically infinite, similarly a actual multiplication would give a sustained use of just under 12 weeks which seems an obsurdly small time frame.

Why not? Plasma reactors have already had (From various sources) some very weird properties alluded to them. They have "energy densities" beyond 100% matter/antimatter annihilation - they can run on very little/no fuel. They seem to be tied inot the warp somehow (at least going off the novel "Chaos Child" and certain others.) 40K ships have insane accelerations which are not possible if the ship were limited by fuel-mass considerations the way SW ships are - at least not without incurring substnatial drops in duration/endurance.

I should note I'm not sure how you consider "12 weeks" at "peta-watt" ranges to be a "small timeframe" -that's roughly 3 months continuous operation, and depending on how its used that's not unreasonable - 12 weeks is long endurance for a fighter or a titan, for example. And in the case of a city... depends on the city and their power usage (Which cannot be constant.) If that were "maximum output" for a city, 12 weeks doesn't seem unusual. Especially since the endurance figure seems to be not based on fuel limitations but on the tolerances of the reactor itself - ie "wear and tear", which again is not unusual in either interpretation (its either very tough, or it wears out like everything else with prolonged use without any dfown time and may need repair/replacing at some point.)

It appears to operate using a similar principle to a CHP cycle, sending waste particulate matter back into the generator. Our own CHP cycles generate efficiencies of upto 90% which may be an indication of this reactor as well.

Perhaps, but plasma reactors tend to be alot goofier than that, a nd they're not exactly fusion. At a minimum their annihilation reactions (based on descriptions of weapons like plasma grenades), and at the most they are something like "Naquidah" in purpose and function.

Maintenance is 4.17 hours per cycle, how ever long a cycle is. Day, Week, Month or Year?

"cycle" may not refer to a length of time, but may refer to some path or motion of a component (or the operation of the machine.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Big update! I want to dump out all the rest of the BFG stuff cuz I want to move onto other sources.

Page 67

Pott maw is the capital system of the Gothic Sector. The planet itself is the most productive hive world in the region, with a population of over 200 billion people.

Port Maw: type and population given. Note that it implies more than one Hive World in the sector.

PAge 85

It [Imperium] is spread over tens of thousands of light years, its armies alone numbering many billions of soldiers.

"billions" of soldiers in the army alone, at a minimum, but this is clearly a minimum.

Page 85

It is possible for a ship to make short warp jumps of about four or five light years with a certain degree of accuracy.

...

Guided by the minds of ten thousand specially trained human psykers on Terra, the AStronomican pulses outwards 70,000 light years to the furthest reaches of the galaxy.

...

Weaker, shorter-ranged astropathic ducts and beacons are also used to mark out shipping lanes and aid navigation through treacherous areas of the warp.

its possible for ships to make a non-Navigator jump of up to 4-5 light years. A back up to Navigators is also used in the form of "astropathic ducts and beacons" (which cogers a 10-20 light year diameter, IIRC.) as well as aiding navigation in section sof the warp where navigation is dangerous.

Also note the same "10,000 psykers running the AStronomican" bit, indicating a benchmark on at least the fraction of the Emperor's power post Throne.

Page 94

Orbiting stations also fell to the Chaos invaders, destroyed or captured by the swiftness of the attack. The loss of many of these orbital shipyards, sucha s Tripol Docks, Port Imperial, and Gathara Station, was doubly felt.

...

Captain Grove of the Admiral Drake, an old Relentelss class cruiser used as a training vessel, was one fo the few survivors of the attack at Halemet Base in the Cyclops Cluster,

There seem to be at least 3 oribtal shipyards in the sector, aside from the Forge Worlds and Port Maw.

Page 95

The initial Chaos attacks truck at important installations such as Adeptus Mechancius Forge Wolrds and Naval bases. Of the seeventeen bases in the Gothic Sector, six of them were founded upon the Blackstone Fortresses.

Implied multiple Forge Worlds and multiple Naval bases (seventeen Naval bases, ot be exact.) all of them have shipyards. Again, implied tens of thousands of forge worlds and bases throughout the Imperium each, with accompanying shipyards.

Page 96

but to know the enemy had the ability to destroy an entire planet, not just all life on it, must have been the most chilling thought that any naval cremwman had ever faced.

Extinction level events are not "shocking/horrifying" events from a Naval/military standpoint, but physically destroying the entire planet (at least with a single ship) is.

Page 96

Estiamtes very from eight enemy fleets to twenty or more. Each was a rival to any battlegroup Lord Admiral RAvensburg could muster at the time.

If we assume between 50-200 vessels for the battlegroup, with 8-20 fleets, implying at least 400 and 4,000 Chaos ships in this incursion.

Page 96

Sub-sector after sub-sector fell out of Imperial control and with them a number of shipyards and oribtal docks.

AT least one or more (probably more) shipyards and orbital docks per sub-sector. This suggests around half a dozen or so of each minimum per sector (with tens of thousands of yards throughout the Imperium, at a minimum)

Page 97

The Fortress has pummeled Lukitar station to rubble, taking only a few minutes with all its armaments brought to bear.

It took a Blackstone Fortress with all its firepower "a few minutes" to destroy an Imperium orbitla station.

PAge 97

"The two Blackstones have taken up station five htousand leagues from each other, some seventty-five thousand leagues from Fularis II and just out of range of the weapons platforms, except for the torpedo launchers.

This quote was brought up in the "Grand 40K quantificaiton thread" long ago, so it should be aware to anyone. 1 League is about 5.6 km, so the range given is 420,000 kilometers. This was considered "just out of range" of all the weapons platforms (lance and weapons batteries) save torpedoes (which were in the range still.)

Page 97

Other recovered evidence points towards an energy beam being unleashed towards Fularis II. The Vindictive was caught full on ,her shields overloaded instantly and outer hull vaporised as the energy wave passed over the ship. Fularis II was later found with tis atmosphere stripped off and the surface scoured to a rocky plain.

Stripping the atmosphere off of a planet requires around 3e26 joules against an inhabited planet - "scouring the surface" could imply similar magnitude (call it e26-e27 joule range.). It is safe to conclude that the Vindicitve took a fair fraction of that energy, indicating that it's shielding is well into the petaton range (the ship took some damage, but it wasn't severe enough to desroy it entirely.)

We have no idea what vessel the Vindictive is, but its either probably a cruiser or frigate, ,most smaller escorts are usually in squadrons and battleships would be too rare.


Page 98

On the Hve world of Stranivar three hive cities, with inhabitants running into a hundred billion souls, were overcome with rioting due to shortages of drinkable water.

...

The docks and shipyards were frquently starved of supplies and ships which put in for repairs and re-arming were often sent into battle with only makeshift refits and half-empty magazines.

At least two other Hives (Orar and Port Maw) exist in addition to here. Stranivar has at least 100 billion people. This makes three Hive Cities per sector, all apparently with populations in the 100-200 billion range. Note as well the mention of "docks and shipyards" for the hive.

Page 98

Using plasma torpedoes modified by magos Urilun of the Adeptus Mechanicus, we set fire to the atmosphere of the near-deserted world, burning them out.

A task force of unknown size used torpedoes to superheat thea tmosphere of a planet to destroy pirates. No idea on numbers or yield.

Page 98

For three days the two mighty fleets battled, inflicting horrendous casualties on both sides.

The battle against Chaos and Imperium space fleets is implied to last "three days" although whether this was straight out fighting, or if it included manuvering, is not known. It should tell you the combat endurance of 40K fleets, however.

Page 110

- the "Lord Daros" construction example quoted elsewhere (1 Lunar cruiser from a Feral world in 11 years). It is safe to conclude that any Civilised world and Hive World could perform similar feats - in other words the vast amjority of the Imperium, if not all, shoudl be capable of producing ships as large (or smaller) in a similar timeframe.

PAge 110

Its [Tyrant's class CA's] superfired plasma batteris are capable of launching a boosted salvo considerably further than comparable cruiser wepaon decks, yet still deliver virtually the same weight of fire at close quarters. This had eluded ship designers since the sercets of building very long range ship weaponry had been lost after the Dark Age of Technology. In practice, however, the Tyrant's long range firepower lacks sufficient strength ot make it a serious threat to anything larger than an escort-sized vessel. Two of the Tyrants assigned to the Gothic Sector fleet, Zealous and Dominion were eventually upgraded with weapons salvaged from wrecked Chaos ships. These pushed their firepower up to battlecruiser levels, making them very dangerous opponents at long range.

Tyrant-class have "battlecruiser" grade power, after being refitted with Chaos weapons, before that their long-range firepower is only effective against escorts.

Note as well the implication that "modern" weapons ranges are alot less than they were capable of in the DAoT. though the factors implied seem to be with the power/weight of fire - plasma weapons seem to be implied to lose damage with range, at least with cruiser-grade vessels.

Page 112

This stop-gap measure [Dictator class cruiser] was originally undertaken as a simple method of delivering large numbers of atmospheric craft, like the Thunderbolt fighter and Marauder bomber, to low orbit, for ground support operations.

Thunderbolt and Marauder craft apparently are capable of reaching low orbit from the surface of the planet, ,and vice versa (atmospheric reentry.). This suggests they not only are significantly more durable than modern mateirals (they don't burn up on reentry), but their powerplants are probably better than chem propulsion (even promethium.), since the Dictator does not deploy them directly into the atmosphere (But frfom low orbit.)

Page 112

However, successive upgrades to the Dictator's communications and detection systems expanded its capabilities for launching long-range strikes agianst ships in deep space.

This implies that the effective striking range of fighter craft is comparable to the sensor communication/detection ranges of the vessel in question. This may also imply some FTL sensor/comm system associated with these sorts of operations.

Page 112

An ideal light cruiser carries enough firepower to drive off opposing escrots and enough fuel and supplies to remain away from bases for months at a time.

Light cruiser's firepower is at least twice that of an escort's.

Cruisers have operational endurances of "months".

PAge 112

The Dauntless is a popular class, as fast and manuverable as a frigate but with a ferocious frontal lance armament.

Dauntless-class cruisers have the acceleration craft and manuverability of a smaller vessel.

Page 113

The Sword's [Frigate] laser-based wepaons batteries and substantial turret array have an exceptional ready level of 88.2%

The Sword-class frigate makes use of laser weapons and apparently has a large point-defense capability. A "readiness" level of nearly 90% is considered exceptional.

Page 113

The Firestorm is built around a sword-class hull with major reconfiguration of the central laser cores to direct power to a prow-mounted cannon.

Firestorm frigates are comparable in size to Sword-class, with the addition of forward lance batteries (or rather one cannon, implied, though its known lances are "multiple" emittors combining into a single beam.)

The lance is also laser-based, apparently, given that the Sword's "laser cores" simply were reconfigured to power the lance array forward. This also implies that the lance is of comparable power to the forward batteries. (sucking up half the weapons power, and therefore being twice as powerful as its wepaons batteries?)

Page 113

The two Firestorms intercecpted a group of Infidel raiders flanking the main fleet to attack the Emperor-class battleship Intolerance. Three of the raiders were destroyed for the loss of one Firestorm, enablin the Intolerance to complete the despatch of twenty-four bomber wings against the Chaos Desloator class battelship Eternity of Pain.

Emperor-class battleships carry at least 24 bomber "wings" Presumably this means they carry at least that many fighter/itnercecptor wings as well.

Page 114

Most transport ships carry some weapons to protect themselves against pirates and other raiders, but without decent sensors and fire control by experienced officeers the chances of getting a shot at the enemy is miniscule.

Sensors and fire control are related, and have a direct impact on weapons accuracy.

Page 115

The Imperial Navy has always employed an amazing variety of light craft aboard its vessels. From brigs, ,dories, pinnaces, couriers and lighters for transporting personnel, materials and documents between ships, to deep space bombers and intercecptors, almost every ship has a selection of craft obtained locally from dozens of worlds or, in many cases, built by artisans aboard the ship itself.

Attack craft may be built onboard the ship, but may also carry many other kinds of vessels aside from bombers and fighters (their own freighters, shuttles, whatnot.) This also reinforces the earlier "space fleet" concept that starships have their own workshops/foundaries/factories onboard (facilitating their operational durations of months or years - they can replace or repair many things while away from shipyards or docks.)

Page 115

Furies carry a crew of between two and four and are typically equipped with several banks of forward-firing lascannon and missile bays. Starhawk class bombers are larger, slower craft witch carry a heavy paylod of plasma bombs and armour-piercing missiels for attackign enemy ships. Starhawks have large crews, mainly to man their numerous short-range defence weaponry. Shark-class assault boats are built around a powerful central engine and an armoured troop carrying compartment.

Fury-fighters carry multiple lascannon and missile bays. Bombers are equipped with "plasma bombs". No idea of the warheads of "armour piercing" missiles, however.

They also seem to be of simialr size to the assault shuttles, which can carry squads (platoons) of troops in boarding actions (suggesting they are considerably larger than, say, SW fighters.)


Page 123

Several of these vessels (Murder class cruisers) combined can cripple the largest battleship, and it was a force formed from the Doombringer, Steel Fang, and Monstrrous that destroyed the Imperial Battleship Relentless Persecution.

Several (three) murder-class cruisers can "cripple" (or destroy) a large battleship, giving us an approximate indication of power differencecs between battleships and cruisers. (less than an order of magntidue)

Page 125

Designs for a larger escort ship to fufill the role of the Cobra destroyer disappeared from the Monsk orbital shipyard in the late 40th Millenium. Several years later, vessels of a remarkably similar configuration began raiding Imperial outposts and convoys.

The Infidel class raider (a Cobra destroyer replacement) appeared "several years later" after the plans were stolen, suggesting it took less than a couple years to build (less probably, allowing for time for the plans to spread, prototypes to be built and tested, and whatnot. More likely a year or less construction time.) other escorts would presumably have similar construction timeframes.


Page 126

Although compact, they carry a fearsome amount of firepower and when encountered in numbers can be a threat to even a capital ship.

Iconoclast class destroyer. At least two (possibly a suqadron?) can "threaten" a "capital ship" (presuambly at least cruiser grade.) Again, an indication of the differenecs in firepower between different ship classes.

Page 129

Eldar ships move by capturing stellar energy through their sails and using this to power their movement. The amount of energy they can capture and therefore the distance they can move, depends on their facing with regard to the enarest star.

Despite how its described, ,the Eldar cannot really operate their ships off of solar energy any more than Dooku's sailer or TIE fighters do. the power they are tapping is therefore more exotic (warp based, or tied to the webway in some manner perhaps, since Eldar ships can IIRC navigate inside the webway despite the absence of suns and such there.)

Likewise I'm pretty sure Eldar ships can fight even in the depths of space where thermal energy would be minimal to nonexistent. (Craft worlds would be undefended otherwise when traveling in-between stars.)

Page 130

Eldar torpedoes use sophisticated targeter scrambling systems to make themselves virtually undetectable until they strtike.

Eldar torpedoes have their own ECM.

It should be noted here that the game rules do not specify that Eldar use shields, only holo-fields, which is patently absurd: The Dark Eldar have some quasi-force field defense to deflect fire, as do the craft worlds themselves. Moreover, we KNOW the Eldar have power fields of their own, and some ground vehicles (IE Wave Serpents and walkers) have shielding of some kind as well. It would be beyond idiotic for them to fail to apply such technologies to their own ships (in game terms, one could conclude that such forcefields act as another layer of armor.)

Page 132

Usually operating in squadrons of three or four ships, they [Aconite class frigates] can level a fusillade of fire which can match the broadside battereis of a battleship.

A handful of Eldar frigates can match the firepower of a (Imperium, presumably) battleship, which suggests the firepower of Eldar vessels is considerably greater than its Imperium counterparts (thought he Imperium vessels are still far more durable.)


Page 133

Eldar torpeodes have highly sensitive target acquisition and final approach control sysems and are also often armed with highly volatile neutron or vortex warheads.

Description of the warheads used by Eldar craft. Vortex warheads should be explanatory, but I hav eno idea what Neutron warheads do (enhanced radiation weapons, perhaps? Or just some sort of particle beam "shaped charge" weapon?) They seem to be implied to be of similar nastiness to a vortex weapon. No mention of the sonic/seismic warheads used on some craft (liek fighters) mentioned in Shadow Point.

Page 134

Not only are they (eldar fighters) highly agile and extremely fast (utilising some form of interia-dampening field that enables them to literally turn on the spot.)

Eldar "inertial damping" tech give eldar ships extreme mobility - either because they can compensate for engine accelerations in very very short time frames, or they provide some active propulsive force on their own.

Page 145

Most shipyards are controlled by the Imperial Navy or Adeptus Mechanicus, although a few worlds in the Gothic Sector, ,such as Luxor or Verstap, operate independent space stations under ancient contract to Port maw.

The AdMech seems to own space stations (as do the Navy), but like with starships, there are a few not "directly controlled" by either organization (IE independent.)

Page 146

the bulk of the silo (laser defence) is normally built undegrround, adding the protection of huundrds of feet of rock to the metres thick walls of the silo itself.

Laser defense batteries are built hundreds of feet belowground (in addition to the "meters thick" walls.)

[Connor MacLeod]

next source, Battlefleet Gothic magazine #1, also called "Planet Killer"

I'll cover 1-19, since they have some interesting tidbits squirreled away. One and two first.

Page 4

The Holofields are enhanced with repulsion generators, so while they have no shields, the Craftworld is unaffected by moving through Blast Markers or by Celestial Phenomena.

..

The Linear accelerator is considered in all ways to be a Nova Cannon (its used by the Craftworld to eliminate any dangerous obstacles in its path - like planetoids!)

Craftworlds seem to have forcefield defenses in addition to holofields (much like Dark Eldar craft), but curiously, this feature is absent from their ships for some reason. Also note that they seem to have some magnetic acceleration tech weapons on capital scale, akin to Nova cannon.

Page 12

The Hyper-plasmatic energy conduction system used by the Ramilies is barely understood by the Tech Priests in current times, but thanks to the STC system it is still reproducable and has guaranteed endurancec of over 3,000 years. The greratest advantage of the Ramilies by far is that its powerful generators can erect a warp-bubble over the entir estructure enabling it, with the aid of seventeen navigators and an attendant fleet of tugs, supply ships, war ships and systme craft, to enter the warp and be towed to different star systems. This operation, always perilous, has resulted in the loss of over twelve hundred Ramilies Star Forts in their ten millenia of service to the Emperor. However, each journey has shortened Imperial campaighns by years at a time by allowing the Imperial fleet to move repair, command, and resupply facilities right up to the front line, saving its ships lengthy return trips to temproary supply bases or full repair dock facilities far behind the warzone.

The Ramilies star forts powerplant will last "3000 years" - this tends to suggest an extra-dimensional power draw rather than a "true" reactor.

Page 12-13

On occasion they are commandeered to be placed as permanant orbital bombardment emplacements over embattled worlds, or act as part of the defences of a vital system. At any one time Cypra Mundi will include between six and eight of these gigantic fortresses as partt of its orbital ring. Some are used as Adeptus Mechanicus deep space research facilities for proejcts too secret to be placecd near any inhnabited world. Others have gone to the Inquisition to be used as hidden fortresses for that clandestine and all-powerful organisation.

Uses for the Ramilies.

Pages 31-33 - Nova cannon ammo. Will be covere elesehwere/

Page 37

A little more than fifty warships have the duty to patrol and guard the Corribra Sector. This is no small task for so few ships. Fleet Command tends to be slow in replacing destroyed or ancient ships so the shipyards within the sector, Partticularily those at Thesselonia, have grown adept at recovering and repairing the most crippled of ships and making them battle worthy again in just a few years.

Multiple shipyards in corribra sector. Its fleet comprises fifty warships. Their yards can refit a recovered hulk in a matter of "a few years" - this tends to put an upper limit on cruiser/battleship construction, however.

[Connor MacLeod]

BFG magazine #2

Page 8

From the enemy ship came a grerat arc of lightning, illuminating the void with crackling fingers of wirthing energy which engulfed the entire squadron. Each frigate seemed held in the energies' grasp, unable to move as the lightning crackled about their hulls. After a few seconds all three escrots exploded in a blinding flash. They were torn apart from within sending chunks of hull, prow and engines spinning into the void.

a "few seconds" of weapons fire from Necron ship weapon (cruiser/escort grade IIRC) kills three frigates. This tends to suggest a relative comparison of capability for such vessels 3 ships in as many seconds is quite impresisve, considering that 40K ships can put up with minutes or hours of sustained bombardment.

Of course, NEcron capital weapons can be as funky as their small arms.

Page 10

Tombships are the largest Necron ships yet encountered by the Imperium. Tombships are terrifyingly well-armed craft, ,perfectly capable of defeating any Imperial battleshiip currently in service.

Tombships are more powerful than Imperial battleships.

Page 10

and so far have only been met on seven occasions. In each case the Tombship was part of a large force, and so far no Tombship has been met that was not escorted by at least three of the Scythe class Harvest ships described below

...

one acocunt of an engagement between an Ork fleet and the Necrons mentions a ship so big that it dwarfed an Ork space hulk. If this is true or simply typical Orkish exaggeration remains to be seen.

At least seven sightings of Tomb ships, suggesting possibly seven such craft at least. Also implications of larger ships (Space hulk sized) vessels.


Page 11

Although the Harvest ships appear lightly built compared to the solid designs used by the Imperium, these looks are highyl deceptive, and they have proved to be incredibly resilient and difficult to destroy. So far there re only three cases of Imperial ships being able to disable a Harvest ship, and in all three cases it required the firepower of several capital ships to achieve the feat. The Harvest ships resilient design combined with the sophisticated and devastatingly effective Necron weaponry they use makes them a match for all but the largest Imperial craft.

Harvest ships can withstand the combined fire of several capital ships (cruiser grade probably) before being disabled. weaponry suggested to be comparable to a largge cruiser or battlecruiser.

Page 12

Necron fleets have so far always included numbers of smaller ships roughly equivalent to Imperial escort vessels.

Necron escorts considerd "roughly equivalent" to Imperial escorts.

Page 13

Lightning Arc: stored solar energy is released as a forest of living energy tendrils which envelop targets probiung for weaknesses.

I doubt its literally solar energ,y unless they sit in the corona of a star sucking up juice. Probably technobabble.

Page 13

When used make a leadership test ofr the enemy vessel being attacked to represent its crew struggling to re-route power and stop the energy drain. If the test is failed then the target ship's systems are acceesssed and their energy drained to the Tombship. If the tombship has taken damage it recovers 1 point every time it performs a sucessful energy drain.

Tomb ships can siphon off and utilize energy from other craft. Also note the ability to redirect power between systems.

Page 13

A particle beam is projected along a magnetic field across a short (at source) arc, the arc is sufficient to crack the particle beam like a whip. When a target is hit the beam is energeised focusing similar power to the Lightning ARc batteries, ,but on a much smaller target area.

Despite the funny name, the implication is that Necron weapons are some form of particle beam augmented with a magnetic field in some way.

Page 14

Scarab Hive - stores and fabircates Scarabs. Each can generate a swarm which accompany the ship clinging to the hull or on call within the ship. They can be used offensively by swarming nearby enemy ships where they self-destruct in the most damaging locations.

Necron ordnance.

Page 14

Necron ships are made of a unique sentient metal. It seems to absorb sunlight while retaining a dark metallic sheen. The hull is furhter protected by friction dampening fields so sophisticated that sensorary sweeps slide off making them virtually impossible to target accurately. Any attack powerful enough to damage the hull is reacted to with localised power fields to both deflect the attack and reinforce the Necron ship's structural integrity. In addition, Necron auto-repair facilities are superb, the hull can restructure itself at the molecular level to better survive an attack.

Features and description of Necron ship defenses. This makes them much better than Vorlon organiwank.

Page 16-17

This created a flagship for combined cruiser fleets, whcih had the massive firepower of the earlier ships but enhanceed command capabilities. These ships were used primarily as portable firepower, upping the power of Imperial squadrons to almost battleship levels without the commitment of those rare and vitally needed ships..

The ship is a "grand cruiser" in question, a variant on the Repulsive class (with a battleship armoured prow.), suggesting that 2-3 battlecruisers (or cruisers) can match a battleship.


Page 17

Tactically these ships were successful but suffered fromt he same balky engines that eventually reduced most remaining repulsive-class Grand cruisers to the Reserve Fleet. As a result, a more thorough rebuild in the 39th Millenium reduced the weapon stregnth but added reliability.

Mention of Reserve Fleets.

Page 17

Fabricating the great battleships was the work of Centuries [at Cypra Mundi] but the shattered cruisers in oribt could be repaired quickly with newer pattern equipment.

The Cypra Mundi shipyards (a major Imperial yard, a fleet base) takes "centuries" to build from scratch. At least, the largest ones presumably do.

Page 18

In the waning years of Abbadon's Incursion...

...

At the direction of Admiral Knightsbridge the Tech Mages of Hydraphur designed and built in record time, the long Serpent class battle cruiser.

Implied that the design and building of a battlecruiser in the Hydraphur (Cypra Mundi) docks took less than a decade (matter of "Years") though this seems to have been considered excellent time.

Page 18

Built from the keel up as a pirate hunter the Long Serpents combined a basic cruiser layout with the engine suite normally used on a battleship. The result was a faster much more powerful cruiser with the speed to keep up with the raiders and the firepower to deal with them as an independent unit. all this improved performance came at a price. While the engines produced battleship power, the armour protection remained that of a cruiser.

Hybrid ship. Battleship powerplant in cruiser hull.

Page 33

A black globe crackled and flared into existence over the spot. Real space rippled visibly and then shuddered back befor ethe groaning warp drives of the Dominus Astra as it hurled itself into the warp. Reality contorted under the strain: Mass and warp energy collided in a cataclysmic implosion of black light and impossible sound. All of the closest Tyranid ships were dragged into the Astra's displacement and were lost with it. Those further away were smashed in the swirling storm of dust, rocks, and other detritus swept into the ship's wake. Great flares of incanderscent gas gouted up from Circe to incinerate the handful of surviving ships that remained in a holocaust of flame.

Malfunctioning warp drive of a battleship acts like vortex warhead. Widespread destruction amongst Tyranid fleet.

Page 36

As the alien hordes closed around the doomed ship, the Dominus Astra engaged its warp drives tearing apart real space, dragging large numbers of the unholy foe into the immaterium and dashing many others onto the rings around the gas giant.

Starship activates its warp drives in-system.

[Teleros]

Lightning Arc: stored solar energy is released as a forest of living energy tendrils which envelop targets probiung for weaknesses.

I doubt its literally solar energ,y unless they sit in the corona of a star sucking up juice. Probably technobabble.

It could be - we saw the Nightbringer draining a star's energy once (wasn't it shortening the star's lifespan by a 100,000 years per trip or something?) - so it's possible that smaller ships can do it as well.

The Cypra Mundi shipyards (a major Imperial yard, a fleet base) takes "centuries" to build from scratch. At least, the largest ones presumably do.

Were these existing or new battleship designs? That might have some bearing on construction speed.

Starship activates its warp drives in-system.

Makes you wonder why the Imperium doesn't build ships specifically for this purpose, given the effect it had on the Tyranid ships .

[white_rabbit]

It could be - we saw the Nightbringer draining a star's energy once (wasn't it shortening the star's lifespan by a 100,000 years per trip or something?) - so it's possible that smaller ships can do it as well.

In DoW Ascension, a small fleet basically sits in a corona draining energy from a star while self-repairing.

Then one sucks a load in, causing visible damage to the star, then blasts an Imperial ship.

[NecronLord]

In DoW Ascension,

Speak of it not!

(wasn't it shortening the star's lifespan by a 100,000 years per trip or something?)

Correct

Makes you wonder why the Imperium doesn't build ships specifically for this purpose, given the effect it had on the Tyranid ships .

Warp rifts can persist. And things can come through.

And it's best not to let every governor with a system fleet get the idea of making vortex weapons of doom...

[Falkenhayn]

I may well be a fool, but the Warp Translation in Execution Hour; isn't there a way to calculate the amount of energy required to open, say, a kilometer by kilometer hole in Space-Time? That should help substantiate the power generation numbers, if it proves calcable.

[NecronLord]

Not that I'm aware of, unless something calculable happens there?

[Teleros]

And it's best not to let every governor with a system fleet get the idea of making vortex weapons of doom...

Well the AdMech or Inquisition could probably run the show. Still, a persistent warp rift would be, trouble.
That said... the Eldar seem to be able to make safe warp rifts easily enough planetside, or are they too stuck-up to build something that effective against the Tyranids ?

[Connor MacLeod]

I may well be a fool, but the Warp Translation in Execution Hour; isn't there a way to calculate the amount of energy required to open, say, a kilometer by kilometer hole in Space-Time? That should help substantiate the power generation numbers, if it proves calcable.

Considering I covered the novel, wouldn't it be rather simple just to do a forum search for Execution Hour?

To be precise, it required "stellar levels" of energy to open a portal to the warp. It wasn't specified as the reactor output, but it was indicated it took the cruiser (Dictator-class) a short period of time to accomplish.

It's much simpler to think that a bigger ship will have a bigger reactor - its the same basic result.

Edit: It's also worth noting htat the warp drives are NOT the most energy-intensive system on a ship. Ravenor indicated:

Instead, I woke up the secondary reactor, whose only function was to power the currently deactivated warp drive.

It also says the primary reactor is mainly used to power other systems like the realspace drives and shields (and probably weapons as well.) Though the secondary drive could be used to provide bonus/supplementary power to the shields.

[NecronLord]

Well the AdMech or Inquisition could probably run the show. Still, a persistent warp rift would be, trouble.
That said... the Eldar seem to be able to make safe warp rifts easily enough planetside, or are they too stuck-up to build something that effective against the Tyranids ?

Err... They're not able to make safe warp rifts (unless you mean wraithcannons and the like, which shunt the target into the warp, which is rather different from an uncontrolled tear) they're able to make safe webway apertures. The webway is shielded from the predations of the warp.

[Teleros]

I was thinking of the wraithcannons - they seem to work rather similarly to the Dominus Astra's warp rift. We've also got vortex torpedoes and the like for space combat, so it might be possible to scale it up even further, and add some decent manoeuvrability too.

[Lost Soal]

And as of 40K Apocalypse, we once again have Vortex Grenades
But to echo NecronLord, to intentionally open a massive warp rift, while the IoM most likely couldn't control is monumentally stupid. The Dark Eldar opened a small Warp rift on a planet in Crimson Tears, and before Exterminatus could be sanctioned warp creatures were pouring out of it.

[andrewgpaul]

Didn't the IoM do precisely that, while attempting to replicate Squat warp-core technology? It was a throwaway line in an old rulebook, regarding the "Contamination of Ganymede"

[andrewgpaul]

ghetto edit; Contagion, not Contamination.

[Connor MacLeod]

Alot of "Warp tech" is kinda iffy or odd for one reason or another (40K capital ships generally cannot safely transition too and from the warp in-system, yet there are supposedly "Warp missiles" that can do this.)

As for why you don't build ships "specifically" for the purpose of acting like an impromptu vortex warhead.... ships tend to be very big constructs, and very time consuming to build. Warp-capable vessels even moreso. I don't think it woudl be cost-effective for the Imperium to do that save in extreme circumstances, even if you "custom-build" a vessel to that purpose. If youo're going to build something that size, you might as well build a whole vessel.

And if they needed warships for those purposes, they'd probably use those "fire ships" they already have, not custom-build one (like one of the mothballed vessels in a reserve fleet.)

That's in addition to any sort of unpredictable "warp fuckery" that messing with a warp drive might result in.

[Connor MacLeod]

Didn't the IoM do precisely that, while attempting to replicate Squat warp-core technology? It was a throwaway line in an old rulebook, regarding the "Contamination of Ganymede"

The Codex Imperialis and the last Inquisition War novel had comments on this. However, it was concerning a "neoplasma reactor" (which apparnetly utilized the warp in some manner as a power source.) - it didn't seem to have any impact on "warp drive" tech per se.

[Teleros]

If youo're going to build something that size, you might as well build a whole vessel.

I'd agree but for the fact that the Dominus Astra did a lot more damage via a warp rift than it was doing simply shooting at the Tyranids.
As you say though, I can see the production costs being the major issue here - unless you're facing a major Tyranid threat (and until the buggers learn to spread the ships in their fleets out more ), I doubt it would be cost effective.