Religion the only thing that seperate us from animals?

[General Zod]

I have never denied the fact that humans are animals in the first place. From your point of view, what I am trying to ask will be...what really seperate us from the normal 'smart' animals like apes and a super smart humans? I thought apes also use some tools? As well as the earlier homids?

Several centuries of refinement and a few strands of DNA. That's really about it.

Even Ants use tools in a way...which make the classification of Humans being different from ants harder.

Only if that's your sole criteria.

[Darth Wong]

Ray's problem is that he's looking for some kind of black/white distinction, instead of something where we just have barely enough of a certain natural trait (such as intelligence) to have painstakingly built up an infrastructure over thousands of years which can achieve novel things.

[ray245]

That answer has been provided several times in this thread already. You choose to ignore it because you refuse to acknowledge the superiority of the scientific methodology.

It has...but it is not that explicit enough though...mainly because there is like what? Half a dozen answers? Sure they are interlinked in some way, I was hoping for a more...general answer? While on the other hand, I'm not sure if I was looking for a specific answer...


Master fire? Several species of Homids has done that.

Make use of tools? Several apes has done that as well.

Other than DNA wise...and focusing on physical acts wise...I'm not sure are we able to even put it under similar acts or different.

Maybe we can use a mixed classification to label the sentience or sapience level of a species. On the other hand, this is going to get even more confusing. Which means it will be more confusing if we decided to rely on physical acts of a species to define it.

Ray's problem is that he's looking for some kind of black/white distinction, instead of something where we just have barely enough of a certain natural trait (such as intelligence) to have painstakingly built up an infrastructure over thousands of years which can achieve novel things.

Personally, I think is because I have no clear idea what am I really looking for. Gray? Black and white answer?

I hate this kind of question...and asking me to write an essay on it is going to make your mind...insane? Hell, I'm surprised I'm not in a mental hospitial by now...

[General Zod]

It has...but it is not that explicit enough though...mainly because there is like what? Half a dozen answers? Sure they are interlinked in some way, I was hoping for a more...general answer? While on the other hand, I'm not sure if I was looking for a specific answer...

There's really not any way of making it more general beyond repeatedly stating "several centuries of refinement and a few DNA strands".

[Darth Wong]

Personally, I think is because I have no clear idea what am I really looking for. Gray? Black and white answer?

I know precisely what kind of answer you're looking for. You're looking for a simple answer. Something you can point to and say "Aha, we have it, and animals have none of it!"

Well too fucking bad, you're not getting one. Life doesn't always give you the answer you want. Grow the fuck up.

[Kanastrous]

I often find that there's a disconnect between what educated people think of as "mathematics" and what morons think of as "mathematics".

There are certainly plenty of intelligent people, who are uneducated. A lack of education, and an attendant lack of ability to apply a perspective rooted in education, does not make someone a 'moron.'

[Darth Wong]

I often find that there's a disconnect between what educated people think of as "mathematics" and what morons think of as "mathematics".

There are certainly plenty of intelligent people, who are uneducated. A lack of education, and an attendant lack of ability to apply a perspective rooted in education, does not make someone a 'moron.'

It does if he thinks he can argue the subject anyway. "Moron" doesn't just refer to low IQ; like the word "idiot", it can also refer to people who just don't care to learn, pay attention, or at the very least, acknowledge what they don't know.

[Kanastrous]

Okay; now I understand your intent in using the word.

Although I am not averse to constructing my best argument for something, based upon what very little I might know of a topic in which I am not well-educated.

The worst that will happen, is that someone with a deeper understanding of the subject, will expose me to an argument rooted in that understanding, from which I might learn something.

And maybe have some fun flaming me, along the way.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

It was by a guy named Skinner if you google 'Skinner pigeon superstition' or something along those lines I expect you'll find no end of links.

Cheers.

[PeZook]

The big trump card Ray may be looking for is our ability to store and pass on knowledge in an abstract form. That is, humans (thanks to a highly developed language) can store and pass on not just skills (there are species who do teach their young essential skills) but also history and concepts, like mathematics.

This allows humans to painstakingly increase their knowledge base over centuries, with each generation adding just a little bit to the accumulated total. Add intelligence that's just high enough to actually come up with various new concepts, a tendency to go around in packs and a biological makeup that is good enough to breed, and voila. Human civilization.

Of course, every one of these factors is a non-issue by itself. Only in combination, and a fair bit of luck as well, do they produce what we're seeing now.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I've been thinking...is the thing that seperate us from 'other' animals religion?

No. Try 'technology'. Even that line's blurred every time a nonhuman uses any kind of tool.

Beside the fact that human beings ARE animals...

Well, yeah.

Sure, we get plenty of animals that make use of their surrounding to make tools, but we don't see animals worshipping any shrine or etc.

Care to link this in any way with why we're sentient enough to devise tools, language, and law?

Certain laws make use of religion to justify it, and to ensure people will follow.

That's because it's being used as a poor substitute for a moral compass due to the fact some people have none themselves.

Is religion the thing that makes us unique from all other species?

Who knows? Besides, it's not any distinction I'd be proud of.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

This is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.

That's because this is ray245 we're dealing with, Mike.

[Surlethe]

Why do we need some sort of inherent quality that makes us automatically "superior" to other organisms, anyway? Is there any particular reason we shouldn't be content with being particularly intelligent African apes?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because we like to torture and mistreat and marginalize other African apes.

[General Zod]

The big trump card Ray may be looking for is our ability to store and pass on knowledge in an abstract form. That is, humans (thanks to a highly developed language) can store and pass on not just skills (there are species who do teach their young essential skills) but also history and concepts, like mathematics.

This allows humans to painstakingly increase their knowledge base over centuries, with each generation adding just a little bit to the accumulated total. Add intelligence that's just high enough to actually come up with various new concepts, a tendency to go around in packs and a biological makeup that is good enough to breed, and voila. Human civilization.

That's not really a blatantly obvious distinction though. All animals have some form of communication and otherwise means of passing on knowledge. Even among humans though, writing is a relatively "modern" phenomenon.

[PeZook]

That's not really a blatantly obvious distinction though. All animals have some form of communication and otherwise means of passing on knowledge. Even among humans though, writing is a relatively "modern" phenomenon.

Well, there is no blatantly obvious distinction. As MW put it, we're only "superior" by a small margin that allows us to painstakingly build up infrastructure necessary to do great things.

Of course writing is a modern phenomenon ; For thousands of years, we improved our knowledge base via oral memory, which is horribly failure-prone, and didn't amount to much.

[Lord of the Abyss]

When I am trying to look for somthing that is 'unique' between us and other species that has existed, I'm looking at the difference between a 'helpless' animal like a dinosaurs when the asteroid is going to come down on them and a human who are at the least able to try and think of way to stop it.

What we have is more; and as someone once said, a big enough difference in quantity is a difference in quality. Animals have intelligence - but not as much as us. They can communicate - but not nearly as well. They use tools - of the simplest sort. They have culture - of a far lower order. And so on.

If you are looking for some quality that we have that they have none of, I can't think of any. We aren't biologically that far from animals, after all. There's no big black line between animals and humans. What we do have are abilities that they have, but greatly refined or increased.

[Kanastrous]

I don't normally think of animals (aside from us, and some other primates) as having culture.

Would you give some examples?

[General Zod]

I don't normally think of animals (aside from us, and some other primates) as having culture.

Would you give some examples?

If you know of ways that other primates can have a culture couldn't you just apply those traits to other species and look for similarities?

[Darth Yoshi]

Cetaceans, perhaps? I'm not sure if there are any studies that suggest a cetacean culture, though.

[Darth Wong]

I don't normally think of animals (aside from us, and some other primates) as having culture.

Would you give some examples?

Animals have all kinds of culture; we just don't think of them as culture because we're arrogant enough to think our own culture is TOTALLY different. For example, when a lioness makes a kill, all of the lionesses deferentially wait for the alpha male lion to feed before they eat. Similarly, wolves and dogs have a clearly delineated "pecking order" and numerous behavioural rules associated with that pecking order.

What's unique about our culture is how much it can deviate from natural instincts, but that's a function of cumulative development over millenia, not some giant leap in humans themselves.

[SirNitram]

I think the most barmy part of all of this is that animals have no religion, just taken as a given. Cats leave their finest kills for the massive two-legs who produce food and safety for them. Dogs fight like the craziest of religious warriors to protect their two-legs. And they do all sorts of whacky shit for the strange beings which are bigger and can make food appear out of nowhere.

From the perspective of a four-legged, non-tool-user, that's pretty damn religious, I'm betting.

Humanity's uniqueness is that we've gotten so good at tool-using we suck without them. Even other species that will use tools to complete something can still get by without them.

[Kanastrous]

Okay. I've never thought of dominance hierarchies as 'culture,' but I suppose one could define them as such.

Communicating hunting techniques to the next generation does sound like a form of culture, though.

[Kanastrous]

I think the most barmy part of all of this is that animals have no religion, just taken as a given. Cats leave their finest kills for the massive two-legs who produce food and safety for them. Dogs fight like the craziest of religious warriors to protect their two-legs. And they do all sorts of whacky shit for the strange beings which are bigger and can make food appear out of nowhere.

From the perspective of a four-legged, non-tool-user, that's pretty damn religious, I'm betting.

I can't think of a way to test the proposition that they're projecting a religious aura onto us, rather than simply bonding with us and adopting us in such a way as to take advantage of what we have to offer them.

If my cats think that I am God, then they are for-sure a pair of fucking apostate sinners. What part of Thou shalt stay off the couch do they not understand?

[Darth Wong]

Okay. I've never thought of dominance hierarchies as 'culture,' but I suppose one could define them as such.

Our dominance hierarchy is much more complicated, but it's still a dominance hierarchy and our culture is still dominated by it.