Did the Empire ignore certain worlds?

[VT-16]

Mediators were over half the size of a Viscount. And the Viscount was built towards the end of the conflict. You need some resources to do that. This in addition to all the other ships being made by the Mon Cals in addition.

[Connor MacLeod]

So I understand you take ROTJ not seriously and think they had them before hand but didn't send them to Endor? Or you do believe they fielded a massive force from Dac within six months?

Why would I assume the entirety of the Rebel fleet (or even its Mon Calamari component) consisted only of the ships we see in ROTJ? They couldn't possibly match the Imperial Fleet (Which would remain largely untouched post Endor) with that many vessels. Which in turn suggests they had them beforehand (which is also what a number of other sources indicate.)

Would the Mon Cals foot the bill for the WHOLE fleet? No, since the Corellians seemed to be providing at lest some big ships as well (although their system was still mostly Imperial, so their support was limited.) Post endor, they could probably also rely on some naval support from worlds who had been supporting the Rebellion all along, but they'd also need to demonstrate to those supporters that they have the muscle to actually stand up to the Imperial Navy, even if in some limited form.

[VT-16]

According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, it was mainly the Rebel Command Fleet that went to Endor. Makes sense, since there's no reason to spend your entire naval force on one relatively unprotected target.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, it was mainly the Rebel Command Fleet that went to Endor. Makes sense, since there's no reason to spend your entire naval force on one relatively unprotected target.

I forgot reading where, but the Mon Cals didn't strip their indigenous defence fleets either.

[VT-16]

It would be suicide if they did, if the threat of Imperial invasion was big enough to keep them posted in the Mon Cal sector on a constant basis.

Wish I could find the source, though...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It would be suicide if they did, if the threat of Imperial invasion was big enough to keep them posted in the Mon Cal sector on a constant basis.

Wish I could find the source, though...

Me too. It was one of those things tossed around in the old Fleet Junkie thread. I forgot what the source for that. But they definitely had their own defence fleet, which is clear enough during the assault by the Emperor's World Devastators when they stripped their old ships and converted them into refugee vessels.

[Connor MacLeod]

there's alot of EU (or even second tier canon) sources that suggest or otherwise imply that the forces the Rebels had at Endor weren't its total fleet. The RASB for one.

I'm not sure just how explicit ROTJ is WRT the entire fleet (maybe it was just the novelization I'm thinking of instead of the movie) but its not always as if we take something at face value "just because its in the movies." The "thousands of systems" in the Republic comes to mind.

When I hear about the "galactic civil war" I keep thinking of it being an actual war. Not a counter-insurgency action (kinda like how Traviss kept trying to tell us the Clone Wars really wasn't a war.) A few dozen or even a few hundred ships couldn't effectively fight the Empire, much less forge a new government less than a year.

[Connor MacLeod]

I forgot reading where, but the Mon Cals didn't strip their indigenous defence fleets either.

The only such source that immediately comes to mind is the "XvT Balance of Power" manual in th eopening (the Mon Cals keep a ship presence at their homeworld to fend off the Imperials, and that it's independent, but smaller than the Rebel alliance fleet.)

[VT-16]

I'm not sure just how explicit ROTJ is WRT the entire fleet (maybe it was just the novelization I'm thinking of instead of the movie) but its not always as if we take something at face value "just because its in the movies."

The Rebellion is said to be a threat to the Imperial Navy in ANH, by some of the higher-level Imperial officers. That's pretty much a good indication for how wide-spread and numerous the Rebel forces are.

Can't remember anything being said in ROTJ, with regards to the Rebel fleet, but apparently the novelization says or hints that they've assembled the entire navy for that one battle. Since "Owen is Obi-Wan's brother" was also stated in that book, this might have been retconned away or might refer to the full force of the Command Fleet.

[bz249]

I'm not sure just how explicit ROTJ is WRT the entire fleet (maybe it was just the novelization I'm thinking of instead of the movie) but its not always as if we take something at face value "just because its in the movies."

The Rebellion is said to be a threat to the Imperial Navy in ANH, by some of the higher-level Imperial officers. That's pretty much a good indication for how wide-spread and numerous the Rebel forces are.

Can't remember anything being said in ROTJ, with regards to the Rebel fleet, but apparently the novelization says or hints that they've assembled the entire navy for that one battle. Since "Owen is Obi-Wan's brother" was also stated in that book, this might have been retconned away or might refer to the full force of the Command Fleet.

If the Rebellion was so strong and well organized then what the hell they were doing in backwater shitholes like Yavin IV or Hoth (ok it was just a temporary base, but loaded with prominent Rebel commanders...)? So in regards to the movies they are an insurgent group which happened to win the conflict, so they had the right to name it Galactic Civil War.
And being a threat is one thing, this will not make them more than an insurgent group. I am almost sure than not one high ranking American general would call some Iraqi groups a threat, however this will not make that thing in Iraq a full scale war, the term insurgency covers the situation out there much better.

[Lazarus]

I forgot reading where, but the Mon Cals didn't strip their indigenous defence fleets either.

This doesn't make any sense, there is simply no way that a single planet could hold off the entire Imperial Navy for years, even during the height of the Empire. The threat the Yards supposedly pose is of such a magnitude that the Mon Cals would have been curbstomped within weeks or months of 'throwing off' Imperial rule. Come on, since when would the Empire say 'oh ok, you kicked us out, but we'll just ignore you now while you build armadas for the Alliance'?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why would I assume the entirety of the Rebel fleet (or even its Mon Calamari component) consisted only of the ships we see in ROTJ? They couldn't possibly match the Imperial Fleet (Which would remain largely untouched post Endor) with that many vessels. Which in turn suggests they had them beforehand (which is also what a number of other sources indicate.)

Would the Mon Cals foot the bill for the WHOLE fleet? No, since the Corellians seemed to be providing at lest some big ships as well (although their system was still mostly Imperial, so their support was limited.) Post endor, they could probably also rely on some naval support from worlds who had been supporting the Rebellion all along, but they'd also need to demonstrate to those supporters that they have the muscle to actually stand up to the Imperial Navy, even if in some limited form.

You could have a lot of Dac-esque worlds who built shadow fleets or pre-militarized vessels in addition to defense forces permitted to each member state, who were waiting for a breakout attempt should Palpatine die or the Empire suffer a political crisis. They could have been osteniably loyal, supporting the Rebellion on one hand with the other expression submission to Palpatine. These worlds could have declared for the Rebellion and immediately turned their mobilized forces against the Empire. I mean even relatively small polities - like the Cuitric Hegemony - have significant manufacturing capacity if the Pulsar Station hoax was plausible. If many worlds having secretly fortified and prepared fleets, seceeded, and then immediately went to a war economy, they could provide a substantial temporary advantage if the Empire was sluggish to do the same for political, financial, or other reasons.

[VT-16]

If the Rebellion was so strong and well organized then what the hell they were doing in backwater shitholes like Yavin IV or Hoth

You might as well ask why the Separatist Council was on equally outback planets like Utapau and Mustafar during the Clone Wars. They're the secret headquarters of each respective military.

This doesn't make any sense, there is simply no way that a single planet could hold off the entire Imperial Navy for years, even during the height of the Empire.

No, but the entire Imperial Navy was not used to attack single targets. From the Star Wars Sourcebook, about 10% of the entire fleet was kept in reserve in the Core Worlds, meant for use against threats anywhere in the galaxy. Other forces dealt with internal threats in their own sectors and or regions (of which there were plenty documented), and the rest were roving taskforces.

As an aside, the Dornean Navy managed to hold off Imperial advances in their system with only 80 ships. Given the might of their gunships (one held off a Carrack-class gunship), their larger vessels must manage to wield massive power individually, enough to make the local Imperials keep fighting for years. If thousands of other individual systems could manage something similar, the Empire would have enough problems on its hands. This in addition to uprisings on Imperial-held worlds.

[Lazarus]

No, but the entire Imperial Navy was not used to attack single targets.

I was speaking figuratively, what I mean is that no one system which poses a significant threat to the stability of the Empire (as Mon Calamari must have done if it did indeed churn out large numbers of vessels for the Alliance) can possibly stand against the forces the Empire would direct against it. If the yards really were producing significant numbers of warships, the Empire would respond with enough force to counter the threat, and certainly wouldn't just ignore it. What do you suppose the reserve fleet elements are for but to take on threats such as this?

As an aside, the Dornean Navy managed to hold off Imperial advances in their system with only 80 ships.

How significant was the Dornean system in terms of posing a threat to Imperial security? They provided two small gunships to the Alliance which they could have done without. In contrast, the Mon Cals built star cruisers for them, without which the Alliance could never have engaged the Imperial Navy in a stand-up fight, and Endor wouldn't have been possible. I just don't see how the Empire could ignore threats like this and survive.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was speaking figuratively, what I mean is that no one system which poses a significant threat to the stability of the Empire (as Mon Calamari must have done if it did indeed churn out large numbers of vessels for the Alliance) can possibly stand against the forces the Empire would direct against it. If the yards really were producing significant numbers of warships, the Empire would respond with enough force to counter the threat, and certainly wouldn't just ignore it. What do you suppose the reserve fleet elements are for but to take on threats such as this?

This is nothing new. The city of Constantinople survived sieges every now and then for hundreds of years before it fell. The same applies. You mustn't forget, that a single system represents a hard point to attack, and if the planet in question is well stocked, it can build up a strong defence and make it very costly for the Imperial Navy to attack, unless the Imperial Navy wishes to allocate substantial proportions of their fleet and compromise security in other areas. It is not so simple to just hurl an entire taskforce.

Bear in mind, that even after the so-called Separatist nonsense presumably was over, there were many fortress worlds around that the Empire took a long while to subdue. Even many worlds aligned with the Empire held out for a long while and the New Republic merely chose to isolate them economically.

How significant was the Dornean system in terms of posing a threat to Imperial security? They provided two small gunships to the Alliance which they could have done without. In contrast, the Mon Cals built star cruisers for them, without which the Alliance could never have engaged the Imperial Navy in a stand-up fight, and Endor wouldn't have been possible. I just don't see how the Empire could ignore threats like this and survive.

Well, it's either that, or get mired in a quadmire like the US Army is in Iraq now. You choose.

[VT-16]

I just don't see how the Empire could ignore threats like this and survive.

I have no good answer to that other than Mon Calamari must have been lucky. It was one of the few shipyards that avoided destruction/conquest. We don't know enough about the galactic events in the Rebellion era to say whether the Empire flunked out or punished hundreds of potential Calamari-style shipyards. Most likely the latter, since most large-scale battles and conflicts are between the organized Rebellion and the Empire and not the Empire and random independent system #6743532.

How significant was the Dornean system in terms of posing a threat to Imperial security? They provided two small gunships to the Alliance which they could have done without.

Probably not a big threat.
On the Dornean Gunship profile on SW.com, it says the Dorneans sent them out covertly, so as not to raise suspicion with Imperial Intelligence. I guess all previous assaults had been half-hearted on the Empire's side, and the Rebel connection being discovered could therefore have lead to a full-scale assault.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have no good answer to that other than Mon Calamari must have been lucky. It was one of the few shipyards that avoided destruction/conquest. We don't know enough about the galactic events in the Rebellion era to say whether the Empire flunked out or punished hundreds of potential Calamari-style shipyards. Most likely the latter, since most large-scale battles and conflicts are between the organized Rebellion and the Empire and not the Empire and random independent system #6743532.

Well, the Death Star was meant as both as a terror weapon, and also the ultimate siege weapon since it could act as a resupply point for any warfleets that might escort the Death Star.

[VT-16]

Yes, Mon Calamari was always on the Emperor's "to do" list whenever he had a new super weapon, according to Ackbar in DE. First the Death Stars, then the World Devastators. Guess their defenses really were too heavy for a regular assault.

Strange he never turned the Galaxy Gun on the planet, though?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Yes, Mon Calamari was always on the Emperor's "to do" list whenever he had a new super weapon, according to Ackbar in DE. First the Death Stars, then the World Devastators. Guess their defenses really were too heavy for a regular assault.

Strange he never turned the Galaxy Gun on the planet, though?

Strange indeed. Though probably author's fiat. Palpatine was obsessed with the Jedi children though. Plus, the Galaxy Gun had problems with some of the missiles.

[VT-16]

And he was going after the Republic High Command first.

I guess that's standard operation for the Empire, first the High Command, then the important weapons-suppliers. In some ways, it might make sense, take out the leaders, the rest might reconsider/lose momentum. Take out the supplier, the leaders might find/rally others to replace them.

[Lazarus]

This is nothing new. The city of Constantinople survived sieges every now and then for hundreds of years before it fell. The same applies.

No, it doesn't. A more fitting analogy might be a known biological weapons factory in the Middle East producing WMD's to equip terrorist cells, and the US military taking no action whatsoever against it. The absurdity of this situation in RL applies to the suggestion that Empire would just ignore a shipyard like this. The only way I can see to reconcile the sources is to suggest that the shipyards weren't actively producing warships, but were perhaps producing ships which would be converted for military use at other locations. It makes slightly more sense that the Empire might have higher priorities than annihalating a shipyard which is legitimately producing civilian vessels which simply have the capacity to be altered for military use, rather than ignoring a full-scale warship production line churning out ships that can almost go toe-to-toe with ISD's.

[FTeik]

Yes, Mon Calamari was always on the Emperor's "to do" list whenever he had a new super weapon, according to Ackbar in DE. First the Death Stars, then the World Devastators. Guess their defenses really were too heavy for a regular assault.

Strange he never turned the Galaxy Gun on the planet, though?

Maybe the WorldDevastators caused enough damage to make MonCalamari a small concern for the moment.

And while the majority of battles we SEE is between the RA/NR and the empire that doesn't mean, that the RA was the main threat to the empire. The RA was limited to the Outer Rim, Palpatine didn't take them seriously (Isards Revange) and we know, that Imperial warlordism was a major problem even before the battle of Endor.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

This is nothing new. The city of Constantinople survived sieges every now and then for hundreds of years before it fell. The same applies.

No, it doesn't. A more fitting analogy might be a known biological weapons factory in the Middle East producing WMD's to equip terrorist cells, and the US military taking no action whatsoever against it. The absurdity of this situation in RL applies to the suggestion that Empire would just ignore a shipyard like this. The only way I can see to reconcile the sources is to suggest that the shipyards weren't actively producing warships, but were perhaps producing ships which would be converted for military use at other locations. It makes slightly more sense that the Empire might have higher priorities than annihalating a shipyard which is legitimately producing civilian vessels which simply have the capacity to be altered for military use, rather than ignoring a full-scale warship production line churning out ships that can almost go toe-to-toe with ISD's.

And? Tell you what, imagine that this terror factory of yours is strewn with minefields all around, with SAMs giving theater defence, with plenty of artillery all around, anti-tank guns, missiles defending the place so much so that if you attack with a conventional army, you are going to waste a few brigades? Bare in mind, that Executor class star dreadnaughts are also going to be lost? Those ships aren't invincible you know? The alternative then is to use a nuke. But hey, the Empire also wanted to use the proverbial nuke.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Still doesn't explain why after the huge fleet build up and still no nuke they'd tolerate it after Yavin proved they weren't an irrelevant threat.

I suspect the Rebellion pre-Yavin was galaxy-wide insurgency with most of its support infrastructure hidden in the Rim, but financed and supplied by disloyal Imperial dominions. After Yavin support probably became more overt and there while they still operated at the asymmetrical and insurgent level on a galaxy-wide scale and in open resistance, there were probably regional and local basis for subtle conventional resistance (war economies, mobilization, heavy fortification but not open hostility) which were ostensibly loyal or at least putting up an effort to be neutral, while basically beneath the surface allied with the Rebellion. They simply isolated them where they could trying to crush the field Rebellion to hope their sympathizers would give up and otherwise wait for DS2. After Endor these Rebel worlds simply came out of the closet, deposed their collaborators and Imperial minders, and turned their defense forces and the local sector forces (raised from local academies and populations, so in many cases would probably turn against Coruscant and refuse to pacify their own planets) over to the Rebellion.

Hence, much of the Outer Rim simply flips sides and gives the Rebellion a conventional force, with which they link up with the Rebel sponsors in the Core by taking Brentaal IV, after which the Imperial mobilization is clearly insufficient to immediately end the war, and the two sides spend the next year or two mobilizing in favor of a decisive offensive. The Empire is stymied by political problems (Triocolus and the farcical Legitimists) and warlordism like Zsinj, Teradoc, etc. (in many cases if they did not temporarily or opportunistically side with the NR against the EMpire - which I believe many or most probably did - simply fighting another front would've indirectly helped the NR), and can't bring a unified front together to prevent the fully mobilized and conventionalized Rebel/Republican faction from marching to Coruscant to claim the paramount position in the Later Civil War.

That is, until Thrawn's campaign takes advantage of exhaustion and political confusion, and Palpatine's Restoration takes advantage of even more exhaustion and strategic overextension and residual sympathies to Palpatine personally even within the Republicans.

[VT-16]

I think the old SW newspaper strips that first introduced Ackbar and the Mon Cals made them out to be something big. In fact, during their attack on Imperial blockade forces at the Vallusk Cluster, Imperial Admiral Griff and his staff are chocked to hear that the Mon Calamari have sided with the Rebels and are attacking.