So, Genso Suikoden, eh?

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 08:02pm

Genso Suikoden (or just Suikoden if you don't want to be wapanese, boo) is an RPG series developed by Konami.

So, there seems to be a few Suikoden fans on the board (ok, two, maybe three). About time it got itself a thread then.

So, I was wondering, what was the general consensus for Suikoden V, the latest game in the series?

To be frank, I didn't like it. It had five hours of boring-ass exposition that could've been crammed into 20 minutes. The plot destroyed the common Suikoden concept of the "manipulated evil". The Godwins were a pack of racist, genocidal fuckwits whom the writers seemingly thought could be made ambiguous by a 20 second "I did it for Falena" speech before the final boss.

The world map was shittily designed with 40% of it pissed away on empty or inaccessible space. The graphics were shoddily done and the far-away camera angle used to try and hide it was a disgrace. Also, could the Lelcar subplot have been any more of a Two River (from Suikoden II) rip-off?

Ok, some characters were good. It was great to see Georg Prime in his, erm, prime. Lorelai is always good to see too and some elements of the plot were decent, but that's about it. Suikoden V only gets the praise it's got because it had to follow up a terrible Suikoden IV and a life-less (and sometimes batshit insane) Suikoden Tactics.

And I like the series.

So, what do you think about Suikoden V? Or, for that matter, anything in the series? Let's drum up some discussion here!

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-02 08:48pm

Suikoden 5 was a far bit better than Suikoden 4, and I haven't even played suikoden 4.

*blink* Georg was in 2!??! Wow, I had no freakin idea.

Anyway, back to five. There were a lot of things that could have used polish, story wise. And I kept calling Lelcar two-river. And I had a terribly hard time trying to rationalize (Uh.. SPOILERS!!!!) Sialeed's betrayal. And I spent the entire game waiting for the prince to get into Lyon's pants (Hell, man, I wanted to get into Lyon's pants). I also never actually got around to getting all 108 stars. Well, I tell a lie. I never got around to getting all 108 stars and beat the game. I got to the end, and then Alter Code F came out, and then other games happened.

As for the graphics... When suikoden 3 exceeds a game's graphics, it's kinda sad.

The combat system was fun, though, and the dueling was helaciously awesome, and I had no complaints with army on army (as opposed to say, suikoden 3, which looked like othello. Or suikoden 1, which was rock paper scissors.

Suikoden 5 got a solid 7 out of 10 from me. Suikoden 1 and 3 got an 8, and Suikoden 2 got a 10 out of 10.

Also, I seem to be in the minority when I say I enjoyed the hell out of suikoden 3. Granted, I hated hugo, but Chris's hotness and Geddoe's sheer badassery more than made up for it.

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-02 08:55pm

Oh, and Lorelai. Lorelai has allways been awesome to be because of her unrepentant bitchyness. But I wish the woman would pick a fucking weapon already.

Same goes for Killey. That dude was a pimp in suiko 2. Suiko 5? Lets just turn him into nash, it'll be fine.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 09:00pm

[Spoilers for Suikodens II, III and V abound!]

Yeah, Georg Prime is in II. He's awesome and old (well, 41) and paunchy. You can recruit him during your adventures in Tinto. If you make certain choices during that sub-plot, you'll even get to see him kick zombie butt for you. His costume in V is a throwback to what he wore in II.

Sialeed's betrayal was so lame they actually had an NPC in Sol-Falena deliver a whole spiel about it to try and explain it after you liberate the capital. It still sucks ass. Egbert Aethelbald was awesome though and I liked the feel of New Armes.

Suikoden III is still awesome. I prefer the Thomas chapters best, to be honest. III's plot falls apart in after Chapter 3, though. You get everyone together, you kill time for a chapter by having everyone run around the Grassland, then there's some boring stuff about ultimate weapons from ancient civilisations. Also, Chris is teh super hotness.

II would be the perfect Suikoden if it didn't have a dire localisation. Although the fanboys jizzing all over it for ten years has turned me off it a little. That and I'm fed up of debating people who think Agares Blight was a coward, dammit!

IV... honestly is worth one playthrough if you're a big fan of the series and I actually like the villain (Graham Cray) but otherwise it's pretty dire. It starts out ok, if uninspiring, then falls apart and rushes to an ending too quickly. It'd be like fleeing to Rainwall in Suikoden V then immediately running back and killing the Godwins, the end.

Suikoden I is just a prototype for it's sequel, really and was so rushed it's practically unfinished. It was great in 1995 but nowadays, nah, only for the nostalgia trip, thanks.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-02 09:18pm

I have to admit to being a fanboy for Suikoden II, but this stems from the fact that I absolutely adore over-the-top badass villians, and Luca really made my day. Plus, having played Suikoden I, the overlap of characters really made my day as well. I love the party system and the sprites, and it was a lovely game with a lot of character. Plus, the strategic battles were at their best.

The rest were interesting. III was fun, but I was a bit disappointed overall with the quality of the combat. The characters were colorful by and large, but not QUITE the insane wacky variety you had in II, but the wierd animals were fun, and I enjoyed the different factions. Chris was my personal favorite, but I ended up giving the fancy Rune to Geddoe.

IV committed several heinous mistakes, if you ask me, and goddamn I didn't like being that retarded little boy of a main character. V's character was, perhaps, even MORE girly... but I just did my best to hang onto some shred of manliness despite that. I really hope this whole Bushounin or whatever nonsense blows over eventually. I'd like to play a game where the main male lead wasn't easily mistaken for a 13 year old girl.

Game was kinda fun though--didn't get to play it much.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 09:26pm

Yeah, if Luca Blight was anything, it was over-the-top.

"It took hundreds to kill me but I killed humans by the thousands. I am sublime!!! I am the true face of evil!!!!" It doesn't get much over-the-top than that. I mean, it takes 18 full party men and several rounds of archer fire taking part in an ambush to bring him down to half his HP for the final duel with him.

That is one thing I can say for the first two games though. They were gorgeous 2D games with a lot of character packed into it. It just felt so different from most RPG's, that's been lost in recent instalments.

I loved Suikoden II's war battles for one main thing, the war music in the second half of the game. Suikoden III's war battles (and the war itself actually) was just so underwhelming really.

As for the poor standard of Tenkai Stars, well, only Suikoden I could be said to have an actual cool main character. (Although I still think Thomas is awesome!)

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-02 09:28pm

that's who that was! Damn, I totally forgot about him. It's been way too long since I properly played through Suikoden 2. I've been runnign Suiko1 on emulator recently (With a PS2->PC converter for my controller, even!), but i've had to take a break, what with Life™ happening. And the only real reason I was doing it was to have McDohl become MONSTER TANK in number 2.

As for 3's story, I do have to agree with you a little. The fact is, it's blatantly geared towards Hugo becoming fire champion (the manga released by, what as it, tokyo pop? took this route), but the fact is, Hugo is a whiny little pansy ass that needs to be stabbed through the face. Geddoe, however, is mad pimpin', considering he's an 80 year old badass with a true rune who's seen the shit that's got Luc's panties in a World Destroying bunch, and thinks the kid is full of crap.

I <3 Geddoe.

If there's one thing though, that I think 3 and 5 lacked, is that there wasn't nearly enough Neclord or Sierra. Or Victor/Flik by that extension, but I'm sure you're tired of them at this point.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 09:33pm

Oh, man, Neclord can go fuck off. What's up with that name anyway? You kill him in Suikoden I, with a fucking magic vampire killing rune sword and then he just appears in Suikoden II with a cheap-ass "No, that wasn't really me, dumbass" excuse.

Although I do love the Neclord battle theme in Suikoden II and also Viktor's little speech to him before said battle.

"Heh, I'll make sure you never make that stupid grin again! I'll chop you up! Grind you up! Cut you into pieces! Dry you on the sun! Bury you to the ground! Piss on you! Then I'll dig you up! Pull you! Stretch you! Drag you around! And then... and then... in any case, I'll never forgive you!!"

Fliktor are done, and they should stay done. Like, forever. Sierra I wouldn't mind seeing more of (Not like that! Well, yeah, ok, that too) if they developed her more but not if she's going to make some bullshit "I just happened to be passing through" cameo to join you.

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-02 09:34pm

Luca Blight still ranks as one of my favorite villains of all time, ever. He was an evil, butchering villain simply because he WANTED to be an evil, butchering villain! It doesn't get more pure than that.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 09:35pm

Joviwan wrote:Luca Blight still ranks as one of my favorite villains of all time, ever. He was an evil, butchering villain simply because he WANTED to be an evil, butchering villain! It doesn't get more pure than that.

Uh-oh, you won't like the fact that he's got backstory then. Angst-ridden backstory!

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-02 09:39pm

Really? That might be vaguely disappointing. = /

Sierra was one of my favorite characters, for what screen time she had. I could do with more of her in any capacity, though I'd certainly prefer it be story centric.

You know what else I'm reminded of? Yuber. I want to know what the fuck is up with that guy and his wall of impenetrable badassery.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-02 09:40pm

Oh, lord. Suikoden 4 was so tedious. Hai, guys! Let's go sailing! Why's it taking FIFTEEN MINUTES TO FIND THE DAMNED ISLAND! Augh! Mute main character when everyone else has an actual voice? Oh, why? What, Suikoden 3's talking main characters was just that awful, or did they figure since there were three of them (well, four if you count Thomas) that they could get away with having mute characters for as many games after? Also, let's NOT have six characters in your active party. GOOD IDEA! Oh, and Cheepo ... fucking Cheepo.

Oddly enough there is a fair amount I did like about it. The character models were usually fairly well done, the secondary characters (spy guy you recruited was pretty spiffy) could be pretty decent, you can't go wrong with a female pirate, Jeane was finally playable, the mushroom wars, finally having items that restores your magic without staying at an inn, the boat battles (even if it was still rock, paper, scissors), Graham Cray was a fairly good villain, even if it took a while to get his character's motivations down, and a couple other things. Those positives just simply don't outweigh the crippling negatives.

Five took forever for the actual plot to start. 5 hours just to get your damned castle? It freaked me out when you started being able to control that boat. I thought "No, please, God no! Not another fucking boat!" Character motives were all over the place, as well. Oh, and we'll finally get more of the Sindar's secrets! I mean, we've got two Sindar ruins hunters, so ... we'll get something ... right? How about a follow up to the True Rune's plan for the world and whether or not Luc was right? At least the True Rune in this game wasn't worse than useless.

But it did have Lorelai, Killey and Georg, a non-sucky battle system with a kinda spiffy formation system (even if True Men was pretty much what you stuck with for most of it) and some unites that were useful, a return of the castle (fucking boat), fucking BEAVERs eating boats to death, a decent enough war system (pretty much a return to Suiko 2's system) and a couple other positives that boosted it up over 4. All-in-all I'd call the game aggressively mediocre.

Joviwan wrote:Oh, and Lorelai. Lorelai has allways been awesome to be because of her unrepentant bitchyness. But I wish the woman would pick a fucking weapon already.

Seriously. First a bow, then a scyth (?!), then a whip. Gebus.

Masami wrote:I prefer the Thomas chapters best, to be honest.

What, because Cecil Creepy McCreepy were made of awesome?

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 09:43pm

And his sudden costume changes. From black knight to smooth operator!

Luca is insane because his mom was raped by Jowston thugs under the employ of the then-mayor of Muse. When the thugs attacked the Highland royal entourage near the Jowston-Highland border, Agares fled to L'Renouille to alert the 1st Army, leaving his wife to be violated and his son forced to watch until the relief forces arrived.

This drove Sara (Luca's mother) into a catatonic state and drove Luca mad. Around a year after this, Luca hunted down and slaughtered the bandits. He grew to hate Agares for abandoning him and his mother when they needed him most. The incident is also why he hated Jowston so much. Angst!

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-02 09:45pm

Not as disappointed as it could have been, really. Fact is, though, he's still a goddamned awesome villain.

Where did this backstory come from? Seems a little harsh to be included in the games.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 09:47pm

It was revealed in the official Japanese Suikoden publication, Genso Shinso, which ran from 1998 to 2004. (Suikoden IV managed to kill it off, as well as the Suikoden TCG)

All sorts of details and backstory were shoehorned into those things. Good times.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-02 09:47pm

Joviwan wrote:Sierra was one of my favorite characters, for what screen time she had. I could do with more of her in any capacity, though I'd certainly prefer it be story centric.

Well, if you want, you can go looking for Suiko Gaiden 2 where she's heavily featured, as is Nash from 3. Sierra's apparently Nash's wife that he talks to much about. But, in any case, I don't know if Suiko Gaiden 2 was ever translated in game, but there're various websites showing you what happens in it.

Joviwan wrote:You know what else I'm reminded of? Yuber. I want to know what the fuck is up with that guy and his wall of impenetrable badassery.

Yeah, they've officially said nothing's going to happen with Yuber or Persmerga anymore, so you can go ahead and give up on the dream, no matter how awesome he was in 3. "I don't need armor to kick your pansy ass. Now watch as I get three turns to your one! Mwa, hahaha!"

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-02 09:50pm

Masami von Weizegger wrote:It was revealed in the official Japanese Suikoden publication, Genso Shinso, which ran from 1998 to 2004. (Suikoden IV managed to kill it off, as well as the Suikoden TCG)

All sorts of details and backstory were shoehorned into those things. Good times.

Really? I thought it was told in game about his mom getting raped and all that? It's been a while since I've played it, but I don't remember reading all that outside of the game itself.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 09:51pm

It's alluded to. Luca makes several references to his mother and how something happened to her, how he can never forgive Agares, how Jillia is not Agares' daughter and so on but it's never outright stated, as far as I know.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-02 09:57pm

Oh, funny. I could have sworn they mentioned the whole incident.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 10:03pm

Well, I'm not going to play it again to find out, even if I do like Battlefield Without Light.

Can I mention that Kyril's goat heritage in Tactics is fucking insane? And also that I am dismayed that Junko Kawano, head producer for IV and Tactics is back in the saddle for Suikoden VI?

The series does seem to be making a bit of a comeback in Japan though. V sold poorly (like, little over half of Suikoden IV) but they're churning out manga and pulp novels and even a new Suikoden Encyclopaedia like it's nobody's business.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-02 10:13pm

Masami von Weizegger wrote:Well, I'm not going to play it again to find out, even if I do like Battlefield Without Light.

Well, I'd play it, but my friend won't let me borrow his copy and I'm not paying 100 dollars for it.

Masami von Weizegger wrote:Can I mention that Kyril's goat heritage in Tactics is fucking insane?

Is that what Kyril's from? What the fuck? What was wrong with Tactics, anyway? I never went about playing it, since IV was so blah and I didn't want anything more to do with it.

Masami von Weizegger wrote:And also that I am dismayed that Junko Kawano, head producer for IV and Tactics is back in the saddle for Suikoden VI?

What, why? Didn't he ruin things enough with IV that he's gotta come back and make things worse?

Masami von Weizegger wrote:The series does seem to be making a bit of a comeback in Japan though. V sold poorly (like, little over half of Suikoden IV) but they're churning out manga and pulp novels and even a new Suikoden Encyclopaedia like it's nobody's business.

That's crazy. I keep looking at the Suikoden 3 manga wondering why I'd want to pay over a hundred dollars to read a story I can just go play again.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-02 10:22pm

To be fair, the Suikoden V manga is all side-stories or comedy stuff. They're not as intent on just retelling the plot of the game.

Suikoden Tactics was meant to be the game that tied up all the loose ends, filled in the plot holes and so on that Suikoden IV created. It didn't do any of that, at all. They tried to write the Kooluk Empire out of the series (to explain why it was never mentioned in the first Suikoden if it had such tense relations with the Scarlet Moon Empire), but did so in the most idiotic way possible. The plot is about Rune Cannons that turn people into fishmen that have penis-like heads, the main character is the result of a relationship between a man and a mute interdimensional goat-woman. The main villain has literally no motivation, also if a non-main character is defeated in battle, they can die permanently and be rendered unusable for the rest of the game.

Seriously, the other good thing is the character of Heinz, a Scarlet Moon military officer assigned to infiltrate Kooluk. A very understated but excellent character but just about the only good thing in the game.

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-03 12:02am

Wow... Man, I've been staring Suiko tactics on my shelf for three months, waiting to build up an urge to play it.

Way to kill the urge man. way to go.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-03 01:44am

Masami von Weizegger wrote:To be fair, the Suikoden V manga is all side-stories or comedy stuff. They're not as intent on just retelling the plot of the game.

Well, that's cool. I can appreciate someone telling a new story in an established world. Hell, it's why I bought the sequels. Heh.

Masami von Weizegger wrote:Suikoden Tactics was meant to be the game that tied up all the loose ends, filled in the plot holes and so on that Suikoden IV created. It didn't do any of that, at all. They tried to write the Kooluk Empire out of the series (to explain why it was never mentioned in the first Suikoden if it had such tense relations with the Scarlet Moon Empire), but did so in the most idiotic way possible. The plot is about Rune Cannons that turn people into fishmen that have penis-like heads, the main character is the result of a relationship between a man and a mute interdimensional goat-woman. The main villain has literally no motivation, also if a non-main character is defeated in battle, they can die permanently and be rendered unusable for the rest of the game.

What the flying fuck? I thought the rune cannons were rendered useless when you killed the boss in IV (that weird tree thing that appeared out of nowhere), since that thing was producing rune cannon ammo or something. What the fuck is with the goat-woman? Or the main villian? How can it have no motivation? Who wrote that game? Augh! My brain!

At least the characters dying I can sort of understand, I mean it happened in the other Suikodens if they got killed in a war battle. Not often, sure, but it could happen. Though, every battle you get in is a touch extreme.

Masami von Weizegger wrote:Seriously, the other good thing is the character of Heinz, a Scarlet Moon military officer assigned to infiltrate Kooluk. A very understated but excellent character but just about the only good thing in the game.

You know, with all the insanity it may just be worth playing for that guy.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 03:24pm

Erik von Nein wrote:I thought the rune cannons were rendered useless when you killed the boss in IV (that weird tree thing that appeared out of nowhere), since that thing was producing rune cannon ammo or something.

It was. It's even mentioned several times in the game, literally as "that giant tree". They try and explain it's the remaining stockpiles that everyone is using. I could appreciate the game more if it tried to show how the political and military climate was affected by this and so on, but it's dropped after 20 minutes in favour of fish lazers and the like.

What the fuck is with the goat-woman?

Honestly, I think it was for the cheap speculation of "What new race is this?" when pictures first appeared. I see no other reason for the character to exist. She's mute for the game, so she doesn't contribute anything, she isn't even usable in battle!

Or the main villian? How can it have no motivation? Who wrote that game? Augh! My brain!

Junko Kawano, of course.

The villain wants to turn people into fishmen because he's mean. I mean, he's not even written to be evil, he just comes off as a mild jerk. I know you can overstate a villain (Hi Childerich) but I didn't think it would be easy to make a villain do something like this and just come off as irritating.

At least the characters dying I can sort of understand, I mean it happened in the other Suikodens if they got killed in a war battle. Not often, sure, but it could happen. Though, every battle you get in is a touch extreme.

Yeah, but the death rate in Tactics is, like, 80% leading to a lot of resetting. If you're a canon-obsessed completist like me, it means every battle needs to be planned turn by turn. Even characters who appear in games set chronologically after IV can die, like Jeane.

You know, with all the insanity it may just be worth playing for that guy.

Seriously, he's the only guy that calls the group on all their bullshit and inanity of the plot. Of course, this makes him a complete asshole in Suikoden Tactics.