Which scenes would you like to see redone in newer CG?

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2007-10-03 01:41am

Lord Revan wrote:from the OT, well space battles and most if not all Yoda shots (the puppet was fine for it's time but...) and the rancor.

Surely you mean only the TPM Yoda, and not the ESB Yoda which is probably one of the finest special effects accomplishments in movie history and also absolutely perfecly done. Right?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2007-10-03 02:02am

Ryan Thunder wrote: It was a bad choice of words, halfwit. Nice of you to read way too far into it.

Then enlighten me. Because the Imperators in the OT look far better than the Acclamators or even the Venstars in the PT. Of course that's a personal opinion, but you have eluded to something else. So what is it?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2007-10-03 02:11am

Darth Servo wrote:I prefer the models if for nothing else, they seem to have a LOT more detail.

That may change in the future though. CGI is getting closer and closer to real objects. You never know maybe the ROTJ spacebattle could be done with lot more ships and explosions with CGI yet retain the aesthetics of old models.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2007-10-03 05:27am

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:from the OT, well space battles and most if not all Yoda shots (the puppet was fine for it's time but...) and the rancor.
Surely you mean only the TPM Yoda, and not the ESB Yoda which is probably one of the finest special effects accomplishments in movie history and also absolutely perfecly done. Right?

it's was good for the time but lets be honest we're talking about SFX shots from a movie that's older then I am.
there's times when you can see the limits of the puppet (though never too much).
but one thing is for sure, the TPM Yoda must go.

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2007-10-03 09:42am

Some of you guys are crazy -- some of the "add CGI" changes suggested really seem to me like they'd change the feel of the scene. I mean, other than cleaning up mat lines and the like on the Hoth battle, I wouldn't touch that scene at all. It's one of the best battle scenes in the whole trilogy, because you can really feel the desperation of the Rebels and the seemingly unstoppable might of the Empire. I'd hate to tinker with perfection.

I really think you could leave ESB and ROTJ mostly alone, particularly after the special editions cleaned up some of the goofy mat work (like the boxes around the TIEs in ROTJ). The only change I might make in ROTJ is to put in a bigger "background" to the battle so that we see a vast sea of ships in the distance, sort of like the opening scene of ROTS except, like, good. But I could live without it. And I'll cut off the motherfucking hand of anyone who touches the Yoda puppet in the OT!

ANH needs some work with respect to a few of the models -- the Death Star still looks a little too featureless from a distance. And the lightsabers that pretty much everyone has mentioned. And Lucas was crazy for making Greedo shoot first.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2007-10-03 10:56am

Lord Revan wrote:It's was good for the time but lets be honest we're talking about SFX shots from a movie that's older then I am.
there's times when you can see the limits of the puppet (though never too much).
but one thing is for sure, the TPM Yoda must go.

I don't understand this argument. The ESB and RotJ SFX were so good they still stack up against a lot of SFX done today. Sure there are some goofs in there and sure there are some things you could do. However, all you young ones are complaining like you could see the fucking wires on the rocketships for christ sake.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2007-10-03 11:30am

Knife wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:It's was good for the time but lets be honest we're talking about SFX shots from a movie that's older then I am.
there's times when you can see the limits of the puppet (though never too much).
but one thing is for sure, the TPM Yoda must go.
I don't understand this argument. The ESB and RotJ SFX were so good they still stack up against a lot of SFX done today. Sure there are some goofs in there and sure there are some things you could do. However, all you young ones are complaining like you could see the fucking wires on the rocketships for christ sake.

Agreed, Those SFX look real because they ARE real. Thats a REAL puppet of yodel and a REAL model of a spaceship, they are Physical Objects that hold a lot more of your mind then most CGI.

All of you crying for CGI in places in ESB and ROtJ, Suck it up you young wippersnapper! You are spoiled on what CGI can do today. Hounestly, half the time I see CGI today I think Im watching a Video game.

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2007-10-03 01:41pm

Budget on models will cost more than CGI I think.

The problem with models is...they don't feel like they are IN space. Sure, they look real...but the surrondings doesn't. The space doesn't looks or feels real as compared to the PT.

CGI can make both the ships and spaces looks like both existed together in one 'world'

We want a larger more...Immersive enviroment and battle, which CGI can create.

But then, you would need a more 'real' spaceship though. Maybe someone can balance both CGI and models.

The explosion feels out of place though, like you can easily tell that it is two different scenes altogether.

Well...I'm looking forward to a 3D star wars.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2007-10-03 01:57pm

ray245 wrote:Budget on models will cost more than CGI I think.

Which is why there is so much CGI, however mere cost doesn't exactly equal better in terms of visual effects. Viable? Yes, but not necessarily better in other terms.

The problem with models is...they don't feel like they are IN space. Sure, they look real...but the surrondings doesn't. The space doesn't looks or feels real as compared to the PT.

I call bullshit. The infamous scenes of the X-wings diving into the Deathstar trench made people scream and giggle in the movie theater because the motion and visual effects were so good, some felt like it was a roller coaster. And that was from the 97 release.

The Falcon leaving the Deathstar was well done and showed realistic motion, the manuvers the Falcon pulled in ESB again were so well done that actual tension was created in the film as you waited for the Falcon to screw up and smash into an asteroid.

Yes, occasionally you can see a mat line and I've said it would be great for CGI to go in and earase those, but to say the SFX's with models don't look real is bullshit.

CGI can make both the ships and spaces looks like both existed together in one 'world'

If you mean no mat lines, yes. However CGI can also give depicted scenes a cartoonish feel too, which can yank you out of SOD just as quick as a mat line.

We want a larger more...Immersive enviroment and battle, which CGI can create.

Yes yes, you want starship porn. I get it. Doesn't mean I want a well done, classical movie fucked up because you want a cool cut scene added in.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-10-03 02:55pm

Knife wrote:Yes yes, you want starship porn. I get it.

image

Couldn't resist. Thanks for the pic Wayne.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2007-10-03 03:03pm

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-10-06 01:27pm

Ryan Thunder wrote:
havokeff wrote:What it means is that it is a science fiction/fantasy movie, not a technical manual. The reason we love Star Wars is because it fires the imagination and lets us escape to a fantastic world of make believe, NOT because the the big Star Destroyer was scaled properly to the small Star Destroyer.
It is scaled properly. It just doesn't look like its that size on the screen.

And hey, moron, what exactly does an "actual starship" look like? Last time I checked the only "actual starship" any of us have seen is NASA's space shuttle.
It was a bad choice of words, halfwit. Nice of you to read way too far into it.

Well since this is a bbs, you have about, oh I don't know... hours and hours...days even, to choose your words. Do a better job next time and maybe you will get it right and I won't have to suffer through and respond to your bad choices. Dickhead.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-10-06 07:22pm

The only thing that I can really think of, is that I'd like to see the holonet from the old movies cleaned up a bit, maybe a BDZ somewher, or at least some manner of orbital bombardment (perhaps showing the rebels fleeing one of the planets they were on prior to Hoth

), and maybe, just maybe, a little bit of it tossed into the OT lightsaber duels (nothing much, just showing Ben doing a few Palpatine/Mace style flips, and maybe a Vader speed burst at one point (possibly when ambushing Luke on Bespin at some point). And the ROTJ battle. Just show what the books do at a couple of spots (the TIEs armed with missiles, the fleet attacking the Executor, and maybe one of their suicide craft).

I think it could work well. You'd just have to be really careful not to overdo it.

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2007-10-06 07:27pm

Aratech wrote:I think it could work well. You'd just have to be really careful not to overdo it.

What do you mean by overdo it? You mean ship numbers? The feeling I got from Star Wars is that I didnt see enough ships. This is a galactic spanning civilization after all....

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-10-06 07:31pm

Darth Ruinus wrote:
Aratech wrote:I think it could work well. You'd just have to be really careful not to overdo it.
What do you mean by overdo it? You mean ship numbers? The feeling I got from Star Wars is that I didnt see enough ships. This is a galactic spanning civilization after all....

Oh, whoops. I mean along the lines of "completely replace the Ben/Vader fight with CGI" or something similar. I appreciate the models, and feel that a blend of them with CGI is the best. But what I felt was part of the problem with the PT is that they went just a tad overboard on the CGI, and that it began to take precedence over the story.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2007-10-06 10:44pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Knife wrote:Yes yes, you want starship porn. I get it.
image

Couldn't resist. Thanks for the pic Wayne.

..........
The truly sad thing is I clicked the image, and my first thought was "Why use the Falcon, it's not the right scale to do that to the Ent-D. They should have used an ISD."
Nitram: "You do know that the ISD is much larger than the Ent-D, right?"
Me: It would better illustrate the brutal fucking!

OT: I will +1 the Han Shoots First scene and the better Endor Battle.
I will also add in my two cents on the Hoth battle, since I would like to see how the Walkers were shipped to the surface. As for touching up the jerky movements, I'm on the fence here. Part of the suspense-building, omg-unstoppableness of the Walkers was the deliberateness of their pace, the slow, measured gait of the leg rising, swinging forward, and then stomping down as the metal joints rotated into position to accept the burden of the Walker's weight shifting to that leg. In the theatres that was terrifying to a 10yr old.

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2007-10-06 10:46pm

LadyTevar wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
Knife wrote:Yes yes, you want starship porn. I get it.
image

Couldn't resist. Thanks for the pic Wayne.
..........
The truly sad thing is I clicked the image, and my first thought was "Why use the Falcon, it's not the right scale to do that to the Ent-D. They should have used an ISD."
Nitram: "You do know that the ISD is much larger than the Ent-D, right?"
Me: It would better illustrate the brutal fucking!

Nice.

On a non fucking related note, it always bothered me that we never actually see the guns on ISDs, the bolts just "appear"

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2007-10-07 12:35am

Darth Ruinus wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:
Darth Servo wrote: image

Couldn't resist. Thanks for the pic Wayne.
..........
The truly sad thing is I clicked the image, and my first thought was "Why use the Falcon, it's not the right scale to do that to the Ent-D. They should have used an ISD."
Nitram: "You do know that the ISD is much larger than the Ent-D, right?"
Me: It would better illustrate the brutal fucking!
Nice.

On a non fucking related note, it always bothered me that we never actually see the guns on ISDs, the bolts just "appear"

Well, we do see that one that swings to track the escape pod in ANH...even though it doesn't fire in that scene.

Ryan Thunder · Post by **Ryan Thunder** » 2007-10-07 12:38am

Aratech wrote:maybe a Vader speed burst at one point (possibly when ambushing Luke on Bespin at some point).

That gave me this little image of Vader and Luke's fights done with the same style of cinematography used in FFVII:AC...

Which I must say, wouldn't work at all with the rest of the saga, but would be cool to see in a completely separate environment.

Easter Egg or something.

Marko Dash · Post by **Marko Dash** » 2007-10-07 01:00am

like having an option on the menu to watch it with the CGI scenes or not?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2007-10-07 01:05am

something I'd like though, is that they blend the CGI shots into the body of the film (like the ST:TMP directors cut version). My main problem with CGI scenes in the OT is that they stand out from the material filmed in late 70's and early 80's.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2007-10-07 02:00am

Darth Ruinus wrote:
Aratech wrote:I think it could work well. You'd just have to be really careful not to overdo it.
What do you mean by overdo it? You mean ship numbers? The feeling I got from Star Wars is that I didnt see enough ships. This is a galactic spanning civilization after all....

You're reading too much into it I think. In the context of the story, what you see in the OT is fine. A majority of the stories happen on the fringe of the civilization.

I understand the want for starship porn, but to force it into the OT would push SOD for a lot of people, namely me. Endor would stick out if it had thousands of Imperial ships there instead of a small floatilla. A massive Imperial fleet attacking Hoth is overkill. The small Task Force that did hit it, showed a massive Imperial advantage over the puny Rebels.

Starship porn is nice, but just like sex scenes, if you stick too much in a movie that doesn't make sense or doesn't advance the plot, it's just filler.

The_Saint · Post by **The_Saint** » 2007-10-07 06:13am

Knife wrote:A massive Imperial fleet attacking Hoth is overkill. The small Task Force that did hit it, showed a massive Imperial advantage over the puny Rebels.

I agree but what would be nice is that when we see the ion cannon fire with a transport and two x-wings making a run for it or when Death Squadron comes out of hyperspace and/or transports deploying is for a wide angle shot of several ships in one frame.

For the first two movies especially we only ever see one or two ships at a time for the most part as that was the limit of technology... In Revenge of the Sith we start with a massive fleet battle with several good shots showing the spread of the battle, we CAN see what the opening scrawl meant about the Republic fleet blanketing the CIS ships... with the OT we mostly just see lots of one on one battles.

Hoth doesn't need "extra" ships added in... just peg the part of the squadron that saw action as one SSD and say three ISDS's... We never see (that I can remember) the Executer actually at Hoth.. only two ISD's in two different shots...

"view of x-wings and transports heading skyward getting overtaken by ion shots"
"camera pivots with the ships to show the horrible odds of two fighters versus 4 capital ships which are deploying landing craft"
"Our first catch of the day"
"Ion cannon shots hit ISD -> ships make a run for it through the gap"

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2007-10-07 02:39pm

My only concern with some of the proposed CGI re-dos in this thread (Endor?! You guys want to re-do the best filmed space battle ever?) is that they might lose some of the emotion of the original sequence. The Battle of Yavin was, if I remember right, very purposefully modeled around old-timey WW2 war movie battles... and it works. The Battle of Endor has this beautiful flow to it; the fighters don't zip around here and there with everything happening so fast and furious you can't figure out what the fuck's happening, but rather they swoop, and the audience (through both music and careful presentation of visuals) knows at every scene how the battle is going and what they should be feeling.

The truly important aspects of these scenes are not how many ships were there or how many gun turrets were on those ships or how detailed the explosions were... what counts is the emotions they elicit, and though I don't discount the possibility of a new CGI-rendered version to accomplish it, I'm skeptical that it would be done as well as the original Battle of Endor.

ray245 wrote:The problem with models is...they don't feel like they are IN space. Sure, they look real...but the surrondings doesn't. The space doesn't looks or feels real as compared to the PT.

CGI can make both the ships and spaces looks like both existed together in one 'world'

We want a larger more...Immersive enviroment and battle, which CGI can create.

What, you can't ever engage your imagination while you're watching a movie? Are you basically incapable of enjoying space movies made before 1992 or something?

The_Saint wrote:We never see (that I can remember) the Executer actually at Hoth.. only two ISD's in two different shots...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-10-07 03:50pm

LadyTevar wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
Knife wrote:Yes yes, you want starship porn. I get it.
image

Couldn't resist. Thanks for the pic Wayne.
..........
The truly sad thing is I clicked the image, and my first thought was "Why use the Falcon, it's not the right scale to do that to the Ent-D. They should have used an ISD."
Nitram: "You do know that the ISD is much larger than the Ent-D, right?"
Me: It would better illustrate the brutal fucking!

I got the pic from Wayne Poe. Talk to him about any questions/comments/concerns about it.