Noisier Cars for the Blind

[Kanastrous]

Sorry, non-sighted.

So the advent of mass-market hybrid and electric cars has got non-sighted citizens complaining that the cars are so quiet as to pose a safety hazard: you don't hear it coming, you don't know it's there, you step directly into its path, and...wham.

So there's talk of maybe installing some kind of noisemaking devices in the cars, so that one can hear them coming.

I'll note in passing, that my own car - on the rare occasions I drive it - is so quiet that people constantly comment that they can't even tell that the motor's running...and it's a standard gasoline engine.

Which has me wondering, well, if people who can't see cars coming should expect that quiet car designs are modified to take their safety into account, doesn't it follow that - for the benefit of deaf people - cars should also be hung all over with strobe lights, etc or finished in day-glo safety colors, so that people who can't hear the cars coming, have an extra edge in seeing them before it's too late.

Do you think that it would be appropriate to require that quiet or silent cars be modified for conspicuity, for the specific benefit of deaf and blind pedestrians? Does it matter, that people without sensory impairments might also benefit, from more highly-visible cars around them, while they walk or drive?

Why? Or, why not?

[General Zod]

Who's going to foot the bill for this? While it would be nice to ensure the blind have an easier time to avoid cars, this sounds like it would violate all sorts of noise emissions laws, and generally be extremely expensive to retool all cars for a very small minority.

[Kanastrous]

My impression is that they want virtually-silent hybrids/electrics, to be as noisy as gas-powered vehicles. So I guess the noise-energy wouldn't exceed what's already legislated, for the gasoline cars.

If the mod was made at the assembly-line level, it doesn't sound to me like it would cost more than the expense of a speaker, a small board's worth of electronics to drive it, and a couple extra wires. Which sounds like a very minor extra manufacturing expense, per car. Which would be passed along to the consumer.

[General Zod]

My impression is that they want virtually-silent hybrids/electrics, to be as noisy as gas-powered vehicles. So I guess the noise-energy wouldn't exceed what's already legislated, for the gasoline cars.

If the mod was made at the assembly-line level, it doesn't sound to me like it would cost more than the expense of a speaker, a small board's worth of electronics to drive it, and a couple extra wires. Which sounds like a very minor extra manufacturing expense, per car. Which would be passed along to the consumer.

So, basically the same function as a car horn?

[CaptainChewbacca]

We can put bells on cars. Would that help? Sleigh bells, even?

[Kanastrous]

So, basically the same function as a car horn?

Except that this noisemaker would be constantly energized. Maybe louder when you accelerate, quieter when you slow. You wouldn't activate it yourself, the way you'd hit the horn button.

We can put bells on cars. Would that help? Sleigh bells, even?

More like deer whistles.

I'm ambivalent; what I like best about the idea is that it opens the possibility of loading custom sound files into the noisemaking circuitry. So your car could sound like a Testarossa (for those of us not already driving Testarossas). Or like my personal favorite, a Jetsons flying saucer.

[General Zod]

Except that this noisemaker would be constantly energized. Maybe louder when you accelerate, quieter when you slow. You wouldn't activate it yourself, the way you'd hit the horn button.

Then how is the driver supposed to concentrate? I don't know about anyone else but if I had to put up with the equivalent of a car horn blowing all the time right next to me as I drove I'd go insane.

[Kanastrous]

Remember, they're not asking for noisier that the average gasoline engine-noise that's permitted today; they want virtually silent cars to be as noisy.

The sound wouldn't be louder than the engine-noise you already tune out, while you drive (assuming that your present car isn't near-silent).

[General Zod]

Remember, they're not asking for noisier that the average gasoline engine-noise that's permitted today; they want virtually silent cars to be as noisy.

The sound wouldn't be louder than the engine-noise you already tune out, while you drive (assuming that your present car isn't near-silent).

Well, that's the thing. How much of a demand for this really is there? Most 'blind' people still have some degree of sight, and total blindness is in the relative minority. How is this going to help those who are blind and deaf? If someone is paying extra money for the car because it's quiet, doesn't that rather kill the entire incentive to get the car in the first place? There's a ton of issues with doing something like this.

[Kanastrous]

That's why I was curious to see people's opinions.

[Molyneux]

Maybe if people don't jaywalk, they won't have to worry about quiet cars?

The noise level on a major road is already way too high for comfort or aesthetics. Anything that makes cars quieter is a good thing in my book; something that really should be universally adopted are sound cues with "WALK" signs, though.

[Resinence]

Maybe if people don't jaywalk, they won't have to worry about quiet cars?

The noise level on a major road is already way too high for comfort or aesthetics. Anything that makes cars quieter is a good thing in my book; something that really should be universally adopted are sound cues with "WALK" signs, though.

Walk signs don't make that extremely loud and irritating beeping sound where you live? I thought that was standard everywhere

[General Zod]

Walk signs don't make that extremely loud and irritating beeping sound where you live? I thought that was standard everywhere

Some neighborhoods have them, some don't. Even in a city like Denver there's quite a few areas without them.

[Molyneux]

Maybe if people don't jaywalk, they won't have to worry about quiet cars?

The noise level on a major road is already way too high for comfort or aesthetics. Anything that makes cars quieter is a good thing in my book; something that really should be universally adopted are sound cues with "WALK" signs, though.

Walk signs don't make that extremely loud and irritating beeping sound where you live? I thought that was standard everywhere

Nope. Here, where there are walk signs, it's just a "walk/don't walk" thing lit up; no audio cues or anything.

[salm]

Remember, they're not asking for noisier that the average gasoline engine-noise that's permitted today; they want virtually silent cars to be as noisy.

The sound wouldn't be louder than the engine-noise you already tune out, while you drive (assuming that your present car isn't near-silent).

Well, that's the thing. How much of a demand for this really is there? Most 'blind' people still have some degree of sight, and total blindness is in the relative minority. How is this going to help those who are blind and deaf? If someone is paying extra money for the car because it's quiet, doesn't that rather kill the entire incentive to get the car in the first place? There's a ton of issues with doing something like this.

While i don´t know if there is enough demand for such a thing it´s really not that hard to think of a cheap device that passively creates a sound that is as loud as a normal car and at the same time less bothering.
I mean, honestly, installing a pair of outside speakers would cost what? 50 Euros?

[Sikon]

In addition to blind people, there is a vastly, vastly greater number of ordinary people who are effectively blind while crossing streets because they fail to so much as turn their head to look around. Just think of personal experience, what one has observed while driving, how so often the only thing keeping a large segment of the population from getting hit is the fortunate attention of car drivers. With thousands of pedestrian deaths annually, even that has its limitations.

[General Zod]

While i don´t know if there is enough demand for such a thing it´s really not that hard to think of a cheap device that passively creates a sound that is as loud as a normal car and at the same time less bothering.
I mean, honestly, installing a pair of outside speakers would cost what? 50 Euros?

Per individual car, maybe. But you have to factor in things like manufacturing line changes, extra people to install them, multiplying that $50 by several thousand, and it's not quite so cheap. Besides, if a decisive factor for getting a hybrid car with reduced noise is because of the reduced noise, you just lost customers if that device is mandatory.

[Darth Wong]

Wouldn't it be more logical to mandate some kind of low-powered low-frequency EM transmitter in the car that can trigger a proximity alarm that deaf or blind people carry with them? That would cost very little, be more effective, and accomplish the same function without making pointless noise that everyone is forced to hear. I would love to hear traffic noise drop down rather than being artificially maintained. It could also be useful for other cars, particularly in fog or other low-visibility conditions or coming around blind corners.

[Kanastrous]

I like Darth Wong's idea best.

Sikon - people who have the full use of their senses, who get run over because they can't f'ing bother to be aware of the world around them, don't impress me as people we should be making any extra effort to protect. I mean, one has to be responsible for *some* basic degree of stoopid-easy self-preservation...

[salm]

While i don´t know if there is enough demand for such a thing it´s really not that hard to think of a cheap device that passively creates a sound that is as loud as a normal car and at the same time less bothering.
I mean, honestly, installing a pair of outside speakers would cost what? 50 Euros?

Per individual car, maybe. But you have to factor in things like manufacturing line changes, extra people to install them, multiplying that $50 by several thousand, and it's not quite so cheap. Besides, if a decisive factor for getting a hybrid car with reduced noise is because of the reduced noise, you just lost customers if that device is mandatory.

This doesn´t sound right to me. If you implement things in mass production it generally gets cheaper. Not more expensive.
Furthermore, we pay more for cars for a number of safty devices which are a lot more expensive than some sound generator, so i really doubt that slightly increased costs are that much of a problem.

[Molyneux]

While i don´t know if there is enough demand for such a thing it´s really not that hard to think of a cheap device that passively creates a sound that is as loud as a normal car and at the same time less bothering.
I mean, honestly, installing a pair of outside speakers would cost what? 50 Euros?

Per individual car, maybe. But you have to factor in things like manufacturing line changes, extra people to install them, multiplying that $50 by several thousand, and it's not quite so cheap. Besides, if a decisive factor for getting a hybrid car with reduced noise is because of the reduced noise, you just lost customers if that device is mandatory.

This doesn´t sound right to me. If you implement things in mass production it generally gets cheaper. Not more expensive.
Furthermore, we pay more for cars for a number of safty devices which are a lot more expensive than some sound generator, so i really doubt that slightly increased costs are that much of a problem.

How about artificially increasing noise pollution?

[General Zod]

This doesn´t sound right to me. If you implement things in mass production it generally gets cheaper. Not more expensive.
Furthermore, we pay more for cars for a number of safty devices which are a lot more expensive than some sound generator, so i really doubt that slightly increased costs are that much of a problem.

Depending on what you use to make it I guess. Either way making a car noisier doesn't really seem like the right solution. Seems like more of a way to drive off customers who buy a given model because it's quieter.

[salm]

Depending on what you use to make it I guess. Either way making a car noisier doesn't really seem like the right solution. Seems like more of a way to drive off customers who buy a given model because it's quieter.

Good point i actually didn´t think about.
However, is the noise really a decisive factor? As far as i´ve seen, Hybrids are mainly marketed as producing less emission and saving money by using less gasoline.
After all, according to the opening post there are non hybrid engines that are very quiet as well.

@Molyneux: I´m not arguing that.

[Melchior]

Electric buses around here already have a sort of beeper. It can be annoying, but it's useful even for persons with normal sight, that kind of vehicle can be downright stealthy.

[Sikon]

Sikon - people who have the full use of their senses, who get run over because they can't f'ing bother to be aware of the world around them, don't impress me as people we should be making any extra effort to protect. I mean, one has to be responsible for *some* basic degree of stoopid-easy self-preservation...

Deaths are undesirable even if they happen to occur to the very huge fraction of the population who slowly walk across streets while not turning their head from side to side to look around throughout the process, aside from their initial glance (if any) before starting. (I actually wonder if such people are the majority of pedestrians, but my personal recollection is insufficient to judge such). Noise quite as loud as the average gasoline vehicle wouldn't necessarily be needed when a moderate hum like fan noise barely noticeable to vehicle occupants but audible outside could be better than just extreme silence. Even spending any money on adding a speaker is only one option when it is easy enough for already existing rotating parts to make some noise if not designed for utter silence. The usual standard on valuing lives in public safety is up to upwards of a million dollars per statistical life saved in countries like the U.S., and potentially the preceding might be logical under such a standard.