So, Genso Suikoden, eh?

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-03 04:28pm

Masami von Weizegger wrote:It was. It's even mentioned several times in the game, literally as "that giant tree". They try and explain it's the remaining stockpiles that everyone is using. I could appreciate the game more if it tried to show how the political and military climate was affected by this and so on, but it's dropped after 20 minutes in favour of fish lazers and the like.

You'd think that'd be a huge deal. I mean, their entire military relied on those cannons, but, oooh, no. Besides, they didn't even bother explaining the tree at all? Didn't even name it? Just totally drop the entire subplot of the last game? Geeez.

Fish lazers? Wat?

Honestly, I think it was for the cheap speculation of "What new race is this?" when pictures first appeared. I see no other reason for the character to exist. She's mute for the game, so she doesn't contribute anything, she isn't even usable in battle!

So what does she do? Sit there a look stupid?

Junko Kawano, of course. The villain wants to turn people into fishmen because he's mean. I mean, he's not even written to be evil, he just comes off as a mild jerk. I know you can overstate a villain (Hi Childerich) but I didn't think it would be easy to make a villain do something like this and just come off as irritating.

Okay, what's this whole fishmen deal? Does the main villian walk up to someone, turn them into a fishman and just laugh then walk away or something? Seriously, the hell.

Yeah, but the death rate in Tactics is, like, 80% leading to a lot of resetting. If you're a canon-obsessed completist like me, it means every battle needs to be planned turn by turn. Even characters who appear in games set chronologically after IV can die, like Jeane.

Oh, god. That sounds like playing Tactics Ogre before you get ressurect, though your characters were generally tough enough not to die too easily.

Seriously, he's the only guy that calls the group on all their bullshit and inanity of the plot. Of course, this makes him a complete asshole in Suikoden Tactics.

Haha. No wonder you don't ever hear about Kooluk anymore but everyone knows the Scarlet Moon Empire; Kooluk is populated by idiots while SME isn't.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 04:49pm

Erik von Nein wrote:You'd think that'd be a huge deal. I mean, their entire military relied on those cannons, but, oooh, no. Besides, they didn't even bother explaining the tree at all? Didn't even name it? Just totally drop the entire subplot of the last game? Geeez.

It's explained, just not very well. Warlock, from Suikoden IV, brought the tree from Another Dimension. Kooluk took the tree when they annexed Middleport before Suikoden IV (mentioned by at least one NPC!). I think Middleport was able to produce Rune Cannon materials somehow, from branches of the tree or something. Rune Cannon ammunition comes from the tree as well, like its fruit or something. It makes no real sense.

Fish lazers? Wat?

What, man? How do things get turned to fishmen? With FISH LAZERS from Rune Cannons, of course.

So what does she do? Sit there a look stupid?

Yes, for the most part. She also gets to warn people of danger with dialogue such as "!". She can communicate with the extremely recent dead as long as she's beside their recently deceased body. In other words, you'd have to practically be with the person as they died to use this ability.

Okay, what's this whole fishmen deal? Does the main villian walk up to someone, turn them into a fishman and just laugh then walk away or something? Seriously, the hell.

Fish lazers! Then he laughs and, yes, walks away. Like all the bad Suikoden villains, he gets two to three dialogue boxes near the end of the game to explain his rationale. He did it for Kooluk, dammit!

Oh, god. That sounds like playing Tactics Ogre before you get ressurect, though your characters were generally tough enough not to die too easily.

I know. But at least Jeane has one of her best outfits in this game.

Haha. No wonder you don't ever hear about Kooluk anymore but everyone knows the Scarlet Moon Empire; Kooluk is populated by idiots while SME isn't.

Pretty much.[SPOILARZ ON KOOLUK] Kooluk is in rough shape because the area it's in doesn't seem suited to agriculture and now being basically surrounded by nations it has pissed off (Scarlet Moon and the Island Nations) hasn't helped trade much. If you are a member of the royal family, what is the proper solution to help ensure the survival of your citizens?

If you said, dissolve the nation for no reason, watch Scarlet Moon annex a quarter of it and never mentioned the rest of it again, then you too can be a Suikoden political force!

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2007-10-03 06:09pm

We got a copy of the first game years ago...is that cool, or not?

i dont follow these kind of things

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 06:34pm

You are superfly. Seriously, that game is worth at least 90 dollars. And is good.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-03 06:54pm

Does it work on PS2-ps1 emu?

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 06:55pm

Yes. The power of sprite based games is that they're less likely to bug out on emulators.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-03 07:01pm

This sounds like one of those games that is really awesome and cool when someone gives you the boiled-down kickass skinny on it, but when you play it it's meandering foolish nonsense. Would this be correct?

And if so I must demand more amusing Suikodan anecdotes.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 07:09pm

Ok, here's the real gist on the series.

It's supposed to be a more 'realistic' RPG series, dealing with international politics, coupled with the usual stuff about magic, fate, destiny, good and evil and so on.

The first two games managed to do this pretty well (Ok, the first game is incredibly rushed but was good for a 1995 RPG) as did the third, even if it had some weak spots. Hardly epic but, hey, for most Japanese RPG's this is pretty deep stuff, right? And not a sappy love plot in sight!

However, by this point, it was just nearing mainstream status in Japan. How to break through the RPG glass ceiling? By dumbing everything down, that's why IV is some shit about an evil empire and some nice guy islanders, the game system was gutted into something more simplistic than even the first game's basic party system. V tries to walk the line between mainstream and returning to the games roots and does 'meh' at both.

Suikoden Tactics is just insane. It's not wacky insane, it's just stupid and full of WTF moments, be they things like fishmen and giant extra-dimensional trees or contrived plot happenings and lame characters.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-03 07:13pm

... and the fish lasers?

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 07:26pm

How can you turn people into fishmen without fish lasers? Fish lasers are transformed Rune Cannons, which in turn are built out of branches and eyes (and possibly moss and berries) belonging to the aforementioned extra-dimensional giant tree. Open the eye of a Rune Cannon and you have a fish laser. Aim and fire at some poor git and voila, you get a fishman. Except when you don't because it would fuck with the plot.

Here are four other wacky Suikoden moments.

1. Elected President of the Toran Republic, Lepant, offers his throne to the leader of the Liberation Army who overthrew the despotic empire to form the new nation. Leader guy basically says "Maybe later". 25 years later, Lepant is still the man. This is not some statement about the fragile nature of democracy.

2. An inventor named Juppo made a sentient robot out of barrels to protect his niece. To ensure easy tracking of this robot, he built a GPS system, also out of barrels, with a satellite. In space. Remember, this is a ye olde setting RPG.

3. Another inventor named Babbage creates robot guards and a giant fighting robotic trojan horse thing to protect his stuff. He never uses these when he joins you. Also, every inventor in each game has claimed to have invented the elevator, even if two games are set 165 years apart.

4. The game tries to explain monsters in the worst way. The Imperial Palace of L'Renouille is full of monsters as a security measure. An ancient castle has a government sanctioned zombie dragon to keep out bandits.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-03 07:31pm

I still want to know just what the fuck that "villian" was supposed to accomplish with fish lasers.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 07:34pm

Erik von Nein wrote:I still want to know just what the fuck that "villian" was supposed to accomplish with fish lasers.

Not to trot out an old fad but it seriously goes like this.

1. Get pissed off at not being in charge of a nation.
2. Get fish lasers.
3. ???
4. ALL HAIL YOUR NEW GOD!

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-10-03 07:36pm

So what's the go with the 'rune cannon' being made of wood or soemthing?

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 07:42pm

It's, like, made of giant tree bits but looks... dumb.

Here's a pic. The eye fires fish lasers which react with the "ammunition" (tree seeds) to send a big boom wave of magic to turn people into fishmen.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-03 07:44pm

That's what the cannons are supposed to look like? I thought were just supposed to look like ... well, cannons. Jebus.

Masami von Weizegger · Post by **Masami von Weizegger** » 2007-10-03 08:16pm

I just realised something. I run a Suikoden site, I like the series (overall), I should try and talk it up some.

Suikoden III, the first PS2 and first 3D Suikoden game, is, in my view the best in the series. The Trinity Sight System really does allow you to get a feel for all three sides of the conflict in the game and even the "Dun dun DUN!" surprise villain comes off a lot better than you'd expect.

The skills system was a great thing to add to the series and it was the first game in which most of the 108 recruitable characters were given some sort of backstory. It's use of the Stars of Destiny to categorise everyone involved in the game's events, rather than "your guys" was also a smart move.

And casting your characters for plays and seeing the results fucking rocked. Nothing like watching two ninjas with a blood feud try and act out Romeo and Juliet on your orders.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-10-03 08:58pm

The only problem was it ended up being a lot of ellipses.

Though, watching Viki perform in any role was awesome. "Huh? Who's Juliet? I'm Viki."

But, in all seriousness, 3 really was the best in the series. Sure, people complain about the "Buddy System" where you can only give commands to three out of six characters and the other 3 will auto it (but attacking, mostly). But, unless you had a party of mages (why would you ever?) it was never a hinderance. The skill system really was a cool touch, even if most charcters were obviously good with one skill it was still a level or progression, and they were usually good with multiple types of skills. Would you rather have your guy attack 80 bazillion times in one round or have each of those hits do more damage and critical more often? What type of magic would you rather your mage be good in? Etc, etc.

The game also had some of the better main characters (plus hawt adult Apple

), even if Ceasar was a bit of a douchbag and Hugo was a bit of an ass. The main villian actually had a point that you could almost get behind, too. His motives were understandable, even if his actions weren't the best in the world (might blow up the continent, whoops). Also, having 3 (well, 4, really) main charactes from different factions really helped flesh out more of the story.

EDIT: The story was also sufficiently removed from the previous games so that you didn't necessarially need to play the previous ones to understand what's going on, though the "big reveal" would have less impact (granted, the chracter had always been a little shit beforehand, anyway). It also, I thought, a really good mix of returning characters and new ones. It wasn't like Suikoden 2 were half of the Stars were from Suikoden 1 (yeah, I know they weren't, it's hyperbole, damnit). The carry-over save meant less than it did in the previous game, but it still had some effect on things and was a neat touch.

Joviwan · Post by **Joviwan** » 2007-10-03 11:07pm

And every game after the first can be played entirely with your left hand, leaving your right for things like eating sandwhiches, or drinking cool, refreshing mountain dew.

And it IS kind of fun to wander around the countryside, trying to look under every rock and inside every cranny to find all one hundred eight stars of destiny for the ending you KNOW will be better. Sometimes, you get really pimp characters. (Wakaba and Emily FTW! Hooray Clive! That cool chick with the OTHER sniper rifle! Hooray... every single Chef guy that inevitably has some kind of iron chef rip off!)

The magic system is quite fun and rather simple, with having runes that are stuck inside crystals grafted onto your hands and head (You know.. I never actually figured out how the hell that worked), with hand runes usually being HUGE EXPLOSION, watchmeattackeighteendifferentenemies, or 'hey, lets um.. lets heal. Healing's good." Head runes usually being "Lets summon demons from another world to open a portal in timespace with their huge intergalactic pirate ship and rain huge cannoney death down on the enemy!". Or, uh, teleport. That's on the head, too. And if you have people with the right runes both use the right magic in a round, they can combine for Super Effective!ness.