Questions about SD.net

[Darth PhysBod]

Quick question, we know that Nar Shadda is a moon. Why did you use the surface area of two full blown planets?

Nar Shaddaa - the ungoverned "smugglers' moon

It's a moon which is perfectly habitable to humans, most importantly it has an atmosphere. As such It must be at least of a similar scale to Mars (escape velocity ~5Km/sec), or larger (i.e easily up to Earth sized). Nal Hutta as I recall is supposed to be a large planet.

Focusing soley on the word moon is just plain asinine. From ROJ we have the "Forest moon of Endor" that must be similar in scale to the Earth. From ANH we have the planet Yavin with the rebel base on a habitiable moon, again its size is constrained by it being readily habitable to humans.

The estimates are conservative. I've used modern day construction techniques (and worse case steel construction). I've assumed 1 ISDI can do no better than 3 dreadnoughts (completely ignoring the 12 heavy guns) and it still requires at least 37GT per TL shot, 230GT if Nar Shaddaa is ~earth sized.

[Vympel]

However what it did say was that ALL turbolaser batteries were set on MAXIMUM firepower levels and then fired at the planet. According to Wong when a Star Destroyer sets it's weapons to full power and fires on a planet in an hour the surface will have been melted to a whole meter in depth. If an SSD carries more powerful and larger quantities of Turbolsers it must be able to smash a planet in less time than a mere ISD.

Again: what part of not a Base Delta Zero operation do you not get?

1- You do know the Empire had troops on the planet? Why would you slag a planet when you have troops on it?
2- Find where Darth Wong says what you attribute to him- it's an obvious strawman
3- Why would turbolasers set on maximum NOT cause forest fires on a world that is all forest?
4- Do you even know what they were firing at? Hint: not the entire planet with the objective of slagging it.

p258

(Daala to Pellaeon only): "You will take a fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers directly to begin the obliteration of the small jungle moon [Yavin 4]. And I will follow in the Night Hammer to ensure we maintain possesion of this worthless system"
p263

(Pellaeon to the assembled masses beofre launching the fleet): "a decisive attack on the new training facility where the rebels are attempting to create a commando force of their own jedi sorcerers. Our fleet will strike at the training centre and destroy it before the rebels even know we are on the march"

And what did Pellaeon do once he reached Yavin 4? Why, he deployed ground troops, didn't he?

Darksaber, (hardcover) pg. 276:

"Strike teams prepare, " he said. "We launch in five minutes. All Terrain Scout Transports and jungle assault vehicles will be the first wave. TIE fighters will provide air cover."

This is hardly a command one would employ if the surface of a world is to be completely destroyed. Obviously, Pellaeon knows exactly what result Daala wants, which is backed up by her musings about the event.

pg. 277:(hardcover)

Daala smiled, and her green eyes took on a faraway look as she imagined the unskilled wizards under attack by Pellaeon's hopelessly overwhelming forces; she then imagined the despair they would feel on seeing her enourmous ship arrive-like a second mortal blow.

p311:

(Daala to Pellaeon and Cronus only): "You will take a fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers to Yavin 4 and proceed with its complete destruction. I will follow in the Night Hammer with sufficient forces to occupy the rebel base permanently."

"Occupy the rebel base permanently." Hmm.....how does one occupy a base that is on a small jungle moon that she ordered "obliterated?" And how, ladies and gents, does one occupy a base that Pellaeon says they will destroy before the rebels know they are on the march? Curiouser and curiouser...... Sure doesn't sound like anything even remotely resembling a BDZ will be taking place there....

p323:

(Daala, thinking to herself as she borded the Night Hammer: After today, when Daala departed in triumph, the jungle moon Yavin 4 would be no more than a cinder. Every last jedi student had to be killed, their bodies strewn about the buring jungle as an unmistakable message to those who would still dare resist the empire.

Direct evidence of what Daala wants exactly. There can be no burning jungle if the crust is slagged. There can be no bodies left lying around in a non-existent jungle. Therefore, we once again know exactly what Daala ordered: the death of all Jedi students, the destruction of their training center, and a burning jungle. She ALSO wants to occupy said destroyed training center, so once AGAIN, we have evidence against anything resembling a BDZ, which, in the example of Caamas, leaves firestorms burning for years on the surface. That would be a tad difficult to garrison, wouldn't you say?

If Pellaeon was ordered to obliterate a moon, why the ground troops? Why is there not ONE LINE in Darksaber where Daala is SURPRISED that there are ground troops down on a moon that Trekkie cultists assume was to be BDZed?

Pellaeon was ordered to obliterate a moon, why the ground troops? Why is there not ONE LINE in Darksaber where Daala is SURPRISED that there are ground troops down on a moon that Trekkie cultists assume was to be BDZed?

From a previous debate ... with none other than Darkstar.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why am I not suprised?

[His Divine Shadow]

"Since we know from ESB even the smallest bolt from a point defence gun is ~3MT (the falcon impact) the Heavy guns must be well into the GT range." - HDS

Somewhere around 40 GT I think.

Quick question, we know that Nar Shadda is a moon. Why did you use the surface area of two full blown planets?

Nar Shaddaa - the ungoverned "smugglers' moon

Nar Shaddaa is a moon of a planet, but in size it's a planet of it's own.

[His Divine Shadow]

3) The Jedi Academy
"I do detect some ground activity. Heavy weapons fire in the jungles."
"Yes." Daala said, "We strike from orbit. All Turbolaser Batteries, full strength."
Sounds to me as though the VSD's under Pelleeon and the SSD under Daala used maximum firepower

So? You act as if someone there was a contradiction, not that it matters.

5) "high above Yavin 4 she could already see the forests start to burn." - AS to my knowldge that is the only time we hear about what is happening to the jungle

========================
Pg. 357: Strips of the jungle were ripped up and incinerated where the powerful turbolasers had sliced from orbit.
========================
-Darksaber

6) "At no point was a Base Delta Zero ordered. Nowhere does it say the objective was to slag the planet, nor does it imply that that's what the Knight Hammer was doing." - Vympel

Exactly, they where only firing on structures in the Jungle(mentioned either prior to that quote or after), they also had their own troops on the ground.

[IceHawk-151]

You must be working out of the Hardback version of Darksaber, it seems our two versios are a bit different as far as page number goes.

The Point.
A BDZ operation was not ordered, they didn't need to destroy the whole suface. The Imperial Fleet under Pellaeon was ordered to take control of the Jedi Academy, thus they required the use of ground troops. However when he failed to do this Admiral Daala decided to blast the base from orbit. The Knight Hammer was directing full power shots into a small area meant to level the Jedi Base. According to the definition Wong and others around here seem to have of a BDZ a single vessel, usually an ISD, fires all of it's weapons on maximum firepower settings for one hour. At the end of that hour the entire surface of an average sized planet would be melted to a depth of 1 meter. In Darksaber we have an Executor-class vessel concentrating full firepower into a much smaller surface area for an undisclosed amount of time. If the weapons of an ISD only take 1 hour to BDZ a planet the SSD should have been able to completely vaporize the Temples and melt all of the land around them. However as far as the book goes it would seem the writers only deemed fit to have the maximum firepower vaporizing acres of trees. If an ISD is capable of BDZ operations in 1 hour, an SSD must be able to do it in less time. It doesn't seem as though the Knight Hammer was capable of doing that type of damage to a much smaller surface area. As far as this book is conerned the Wong theory of BDZ doesn't fit.

And as for the troops on the surface, Daala didn't seem to care. She order the soldiers onboard her ship to stay put, and then ordered a planetary bombardment. To me it sounds as if she was looking for a swift killing blow.

[Nathan F]

Okay, I've looked through the "Five Minute" section of Mike's site, and I'm a tad bit confused. While it's pretty clear that the numbers shown in the page clearly indicate that the Imperials would easily trounce the UFP, how did Mike get those numbers? Where can I look up the numbers that he used for the page?

I also met another few people on the internet that claim that the weapons of the Federation and its allies are much more powerful than those of the Galactic Empire. Which numbers are more accurate, and why are they more accurate? Can someone please help me out with this?

Thanks in advance!

Captain Frank

My friend, you have come to the wrong place to find this out...

This is the most biased board I have ever seen. While you might get some good information on purely Star Wars stuff (This is a great place to get info on that), it holds an Anti-ST Bias on the SWvST

[His Divine Shadow]

As far as this book is conerned the Wong theory of BDZ doesn't fit

1) It wasn't a BDZ at ALL! Why don't you understand?
2) Even if it was, first stage of that consists of limited strikes
3) It wasn't a BDZ
4) Actual BDZ's have been observed, and total planetary destruction including the removal of the atmosphere was the effect, three ISD's did this
5) Darksaber was not a BDZ, they where going to occupy the jedi temple

And as for the troops on the surface, Daala didn't seem to care. She order the soldiers onboard her ship to stay put, and then ordered a planetary bombardment. To me it sounds as if she was looking for a swift killing blow

The ground operations where not suspended in Darksaber.

[His Divine Shadow]

In Darksaber we have an Executor-class vessel concentrating full firepower into a much smaller surface area for an undisclosed amount of time.

Unknown, it could have been the entire planet, there might not have been any more than a few shots for all we know, you make that assumption, DON'T treat is as real.
Why do you have to make such massive unsubstansiated assumptions to support your case?

[TheDarkling]

With ICS figures doesn't a BDZ take 15 minutes?

On the orbital bombardment front in Rebel Dream (just finished it yesterday which is why I bring it up) the Lusankya rained fire down over a very small area for 4 minutes and after this there was still need for a mop up, the description of the weapons indicates they can Vape trees and small ponds.

I suppose it can be argued that they were once again dialing down the power but it would seem a better idea to dial the power up abit for shorter duration.

The evidence doesn't really prove anything but I just though it would be of interest (since this thread was already discussing a very similiar incident).

[His Divine Shadow]

I suppose it can be argued that they were once again dialing down the power but it would seem a better idea to dial the power up abit for shorter duration.

No it wouldn't, it would be the worst possible thing to do, the Lusankya was taking out the advancing force that where closing on the base and they where so close to it that they where worried about stray shots or bad gunners hitting the base by misstake.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

With ICS figures doesn't a BDZ take 15 minutes?

On the orbital bombardment front in Rebel Dream (just finished it yesterday which is why I bring it up) the Lusankya rained fire down over a very small area for 4 minutes and after this there was still need for a mop up, the description of the weapons indicates they can Vape trees and small ponds.

I suppose it can be argued that they were once again dialing down the power but it would seem a better idea to dial the power up abit for shorter duration.

The evidence doesn't really prove anything but I just though it would be of interest (since this thread was already discussing a very similiar incident).

Just so you know,the fire zone where the Lusankya began its bombardment was around the NR base.Im sure they wanted to blow up the base they were protecting

[TheDarkling]

I'm well aware of that but , one or two volleys (no need for GT por range MT KT range would have done) compared to hiting the area for 4 minutes straight - that increases the chance of friendly fire because of the longer duration.

Considering they were worried about the gunners not being able to aim well it would have been a good idea to limit the amount of shots they took (although the bad targetting is worthy of note in that everyone was worried about it yet none seemed to happen).

[His Divine Shadow]

No, even at MT range the ratios would not really have panned out, they'd need GT range impacts farther away, but that does all kinds of other shit to the planet and then a stray shot might be really dangerous.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Of course Darkling doesn't except that possibly one would not want to superheat the local rock, cause possible siesmic activity, massive forest fires that could neccessitate the evac of the defended base, etc.

And how do any of you, Darksabre quotes or Rebel Dream, know how many and at how high of an intensity the heavy guns were fired?

[His Divine Shadow]

And how do any of you, Darksabre quotes or Rebel Dream, know how many and at how high of an intensity the heavy guns were fired?

It said so.
Atleast for turbolaser batteries, maybe that doesn't include the heavy ones, we dunno, the descriptions at any rate is not specific enough for any contradictions since they can be small or planet spanning for all we know, even so, if it was a contradiction, Darksaber goes, not ICS, it's higher up on the canon scale.

[TheDarkling]

I don't think forest fires would be a problem considering they had specific burnt away the local forest for a km in every direction, I never made the claim that was the full power of an SSD while I may not agree with ICS figures I am not so blind to claim such small fire power figures.


Rebel dream obviously wasn't full fire power but it was may understanding (I have never read thebook so I'm taking the word of others) that Daala specifically ordered all guns to fire at full intensity, correct me if what I have heard is incorrect.

HDS: I noticed this in your database

Pg. 377 : The Rebel fleet came in, firing with their full complement of weapons. Each blast was insignificant in itself, but hundreds of turbolaser bolts struck home, peeling loose plates from the Darksaber's hull, rattling components loose.

Did the ship have its shields down at the time? and also what did the rebel fleet attacking it comprise of (it isn't to do with this thread just something I was reading about at SB.com to which this may have bearing).

Thanks for the help (anyone who can answer me).

[TheDarkling]

Aren't ICS's fire power calcs based off (at least in part) of BDZ info which mainly comes from RPG material?

As was stated before on this issue "closer" to the film is a very subjective term.

[Master of Ossus]

With ICS figures doesn't a BDZ take 15 minutes?

On the orbital bombardment front in Rebel Dream (just finished it yesterday which is why I bring it up) the Lusankya rained fire down over a very small area for 4 minutes and after this there was still need for a mop up, the description of the weapons indicates they can Vape trees and small ponds.

I suppose it can be argued that they were once again dialing down the power but it would seem a better idea to dial the power up abit for shorter duration.

The evidence doesn't really prove anything but I just though it would be of interest (since this thread was already discussing a very similiar incident).

I don't think that ICS quantifies the length of time required for a BDZ, but if it did it would have little bearing on ISD's from the OT era. The only ships it mentions as being capable of BDZ's are the Acclamator-class transports, and with those ships it requires a substantial number to quickly destroy an Earth-sized planet (as indicated by the firepower, with a projected re-fire delay of three seconds per weapon).

The operation in "Rebel Dream" was done with an SSD that was trying to protect an area of ground a few kilometers wide. If they missed with a shot by even a fraction, they were concerned that it could wipe out a large portion of the base (and perhaps the entire base, which included some large, open areas designed to help them spot incoming YV soldiers and have time to engage them before they entered the base proper). This indicates that the amount of damage per shot was considerable over a large area. Even if we assume that the shots they were concerned about would score direct hits on the base, it would still demonstrate considerable firepower for them to be worried about such shots.

[TheDarkling]

I was refering to what the good Dr based his 200 GT figure off, I recall someone emailed him (HDS I think) and one of the (4?) listed things was BDZ.

The amount of ground they were hitting was refered to as a tight circle around the kill zone although what constitues tight is open to debate I suppose, I wasn't limiting fire power calcs as I said its worth little evidence wise I just found it a bit odd (both the targetting and the low firepower yet long duration, not to mention Jaina's awe at the events and the YV complete shock that the NR could do such a thing).

[Master of Ossus]

Aren't ICS's fire power calcs based off (at least in part) of BDZ info which mainly comes from RPG material?

Yes, but the BDZ info is also based on other sources such as the books and comics, including but not limited to Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future, short stories, and the Dark Empire series IIRC. Thus, the connection to the RPG is only relevent as a supporting source instead of a sole source of information.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I was refering to what the good Dr based his 200 GT figure off, I recall someone emailed him (HDS I think) and one of the (4?) listed things was BDZ.

The amount of ground they were hitting was refered to as a tight circle around the kill zone although what constitues tight is open to debate I suppose, I wasn't limiting fire power calcs as I said its worth little evidence wise I just found it a bit odd (both the targetting and the low firepower yet long duration, not to mention Jaina's awe at the events and the YV complete shock that the NR could do such a thing).

I found it odd that the NR had outright banned BDZ too, but they just wanted to pick off Yuuzhan Vong ground forces closing on the base--there was no reason to use BDZ level firepower or the quantity of weapons. They might actually want to walk over the kill zone sometime w/in the month w/out waiting for deep crater/canyons filled w/ lava to solidify .

[TheDarkling]

It wasn't a BDZ it was just a ship firing on a planet yet the Vong were stunned by this - it just seemed weird.

[Illuminatus Primus]

HDS: I noticed this in your database

Pg. 377 : The Rebel fleet came in, firing with their full complement of weapons. Each blast was insignificant in itself, but hundreds of turbolaser bolts struck home, peeling loose plates from the Darksaber's hull, rattling components loose.

Did the ship have its shields down at the time? and also what did the rebel fleet attacking it comprise of (it isn't to do with this thread just something I was reading about at SB.com to which this may have bearing).

Thanks for the help (anyone who can answer me).

The Darksabre did not have combat shielding, incredibly it only had weak navigation-type shields for warding off meteorite impacts.

The puny NR task force consisted of 1 Assault Frigate, 1-2 Nebulon B Escort Frigates, a bunch of Corellian gunships. I don't know how many of each specifically, but I don't think they had anything bigger then a Assault Frigate. It was really a search and rescue for Madine, not an assault force on the Darksabre.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It wasn't a BDZ it was just a ship firing on a planet yet the Vong were stunned by this - it just seemed weird.

I know, but in the Black Fleet Crisis the NR's SDs bombard specific ground targets in several engagements.

Keep in mind the NR attacks have been limited to mostly defensive actions, and open-fleet battles. Usually when ground-fighting started the NR ships were already driven off.

Also keep in mind that the seperate fleets and Domains of Vong don't seem to completely share all information, and that there is no real central command. Also keep in mind this is one of the NR's only two Executor-class ships, and to see it eliminate a whole planetary ground force for a commander we haven't seen in active combat until now is understandable.