Mexican illegals seek refuge from ICE in Canada

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Mexican illegals seek refuge from ICE in Canada

Post by Glocksman »

No joking.
Story
Refugees pose 'potential crisis'
Mayor Francis asks the feds for help to deal with influx of Mexicans

Doug Schmidt and Dave Battagello
The Windsor Star

Wednesday, September 19, 2007

Concepcion Montiel and her daughter Perla, 2, arrived in Windsor Monday by bus with two other families. Montie said a lack of jobs in Florida, the fear of deportation and the perceived opportunities promised in Canada persuaded her to move her family north.

With city shelters filled and a surge of further refugee claimants expected to flood into Windsor, Mayor Eddie Francis is pleading for financial help from Ottawa.

"When there is a possibility of adding thousands to the local social assistance system as a result of refugee claimants crossing the border into Windsor, we will become overwhelmed and our current resources will not suffice," Francis wrote in a letter sent Wednesday to Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

Over the past three weeks, 45 families and 31 individuals -- approximately 200 people -- entered Canada at the Detroit River crossings and applied in Windsor for shelter and social assistance after filing refugee claims with the Canada Border Services Agency. Municipal agencies dealing with the sudden influx of mainly Mexican refugee applicants are renting out hotel rooms and bracing for predicted thousands more to come.

"We don't have the means, ability or capacity to deal with this additional cost. We are not able to deal with this potential crisis locally," Francis wrote Harper.

"I don't believe that Windsor's residents and taxpayers should have to foot the bill for U.S. immigration policy," Francis told The Star. He was referring to the suspected source of the problem -- a recently begun crackdown on illegal immigrants in economically struggling regions of the U.S. South.

With the bulk of the latest arrivals being long-time Mexican illegals dislodged from their homes and workplaces in southwestern Florida, fingers are being pointed at unscrupulous outfits charging money and then directing desperate individuals and their families toward the Windsor border crossing.

"We are aware of these operations -- they have been advertising incorrect and false information," said Marina Wilson, a spokeswoman for Citizenship and Immigration Canada. Wilson said Canadian immigration authorities have started contacting the Mexican and Haitian communities in Florida, as well as local media there, to get the word out that nothing has changed in Canadian refugee policy.

"The fact someone wants to come here for better economic opportunity or a better quality of life ... that's no basis for a successful refugee claim," said Immigration Refugee Board (IRB) spokesman Charles Hawkins.

But a group operating out of Naples, Fla., vowed to continue sending the so-called economic refugees to Windsor.

"They ask, 'Is Canada an option?' and I say, 'Yes, it is an option,'" Jacques Sinjuste of the Jerusalem Haitian Community Center said in a phone interview Wednesday. For a US$300 "donation" (most of those interviewed in Windsor claim they paid US$400), JHCC staff download forms off the Internet, help applicants fill them out and give directions on how to get to the Canadian border.

Sinjuste said he's simply providing a "referral" service.

"Most of the time when the people come, they say they've heard something (about Canada). I say that I've heard the same thing," he said.

Jacquie Rumiel, director of programs for new Canadians at the YMCA, where refugee claimants are referred by Windsor's border guards, said the new people she's seeing are "mostly" Mexicans coming from Florida.

To be successful, refugee claimants must prove they are fleeing persecution at home, something most of the Mexicans arriving in Windsor would be hard-pressed to do. The IRB's Hawkins said there was only a 13 per cent acceptance rate of refugee claims filed by Mexican nationals during the first six months of the year, compared to an overall rate of 47 per cent.

But the average processing time for a refugee claim in Canada is currently 14.2 months, said Hawkins, a period during which the applicant is eligible for financial and other support. A failed claimant then also has the right to seek leave to appeal his or her rejection to federal court.

Despite the high number of failed applications cited by the IRB, Sinjuste said he gets calls to his Naples centre from "a lot of people" who've arrived in Windsor.

"They say everything is okay -- they are doing good, going to schools, going to work," he said.

Sinjuste said he was visited last week by an official from the Canadian consulate general in Miami but couldn't remember if he was told to stop helping economic refugees go to Canada.

"I don't think they tell me that," he said. Federal bureaucrats confirmed the meeting but said they couldn't divulge details.

Others are warning about the types of activities Sinjuste is engaged in.

"The way he's misleading the most vulnerable is infuriating," said Pegg Roberts, executive director of Detroit's Freedom House, which runs a shelter and assists asylum-seekers with their refugee claims. Sinjuste said he uses the Freedom House website to download refugee claim forms and advises the people he assists to seek help there.

"I do not help economic refugees," said Roberts, adding her non-profit organization assists the fleeing victims of torture and war crimes and has no affiliation with the JHCC.

"This is a problem the U.S. has allowed to create. It's really unfair for Canada to have to face this," said MP Joe Comartin (NDP -- Windsor-Tecumseh), his Party's public safety and national security critic.

"This is very much being driven by (the U.S. Department of) Homeland Security," he said, predicting that, "with few exceptions," most of these "economic claimants" will eventually be sent back.

dschmidt@thestar.canwest.com or 519-255-5586
© The Windsor Star 2007
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Post by Kanastrous »

So...it's a problem when Canadian resources are taxed by an influx of people with no legal right to residency in Canada...

But we're not supposed to regard it as a problem when American resources are taxed by an influx of people with no right to residency here, in the US.

Talk about hypocrisy.
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Post by General Zod »

Kanastrous wrote:So...it's a problem when Canadian resources are taxed by an influx of people with no legal right to residency in Canada...

But we're not supposed to regard it as a problem when American resources are taxed by an influx of people with no right to residency here, in the US.

Talk about hypocrisy.
Where exactly in the article are you getting this from?
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Re: Mexican illegals seek refuge from ICE in Canada

Post by Kanastrous »

Glocksman wrote: "We don't have the means, ability or capacity to deal with this additional cost. We are not able to deal with this potential crisis locally," Francis wrote Harper.

"I don't believe that Windsor's residents and taxpayers should have to foot the bill for U.S. immigration policy," Francis told The Star. He was referring to the suspected source of the problem -- a recently begun crackdown on illegal immigrants in economically struggling regions of the U.S. South.
To me this implies that US residents and taxpayers, on the other hand, should have to foot the bill for Mexican immigration policy (off you go to the USA, here's how you get there, here's where to cross, don't forget to send back remittances!). People crossing our border at will, and drawing on American resources is fine. People finding that enforcement of some of our laws makes life here difficult for them, and traveling up to Canada, thereby forcing Canada to do the same, drawing upon Canadian resources, is a problem.
Glocksman wrote:"The fact someone wants to come here for better economic opportunity or a better quality of life ... that's no basis for a successful refugee claim," said Immigration Refugee Board (IRB) spokesman Charles Hawkins.
And the fact that someone wants to come here for better economic opportunity or a better quality of life ... that's no basis for a successful US legal residency claim either.

Glocksman wrote:"This is a problem the U.S. has allowed to create. It's really unfair for Canada to have to face this," said MP Joe Comartin (NDP -- Windsor-Tecumseh), his Party's public safety and national security critic.
Where was MP Comartin, to decry the problems that the Mexican government has created ("allowed to create...?") for the US?

I think that Canadian ire is misdirected, here. It appears that the complaint is that we didn't stop the bullet, and absorb illegal aliens here at our expense, thus letting the migrants cross our territory and become a problem to be addressed at Canadian expense.

If Mexico is a staggering mess thanks to decades of their own corruption and mis-rule, then Canadians ought to be pointing at Mexico as the origin of the problem, not the United States.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Out of curiosity, do illegal immigrants in America receive social security cheques and housing and medical benefits?
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Re: Mexican illegals seek refuge from ICE in Canada

Post by General Zod »

Kanastrous wrote: To me this implies that US residents and taxpayers, on the other hand, should have to foot the bill for Mexican immigration policy (off you go to the USA, here's how you get there, here's where to cross, don't forget to send back remittances!). People crossing our border at will, and drawing on American resources is fine. People finding that enforcement of some of our laws makes life here difficult for them, and traveling up to Canada, thereby forcing Canada to do the same, drawing upon Canadian resources, is a problem.
As opposed to our lax border patrol on our end and poor regulation of business policies that actually make illegals view unconditional immigration as an inalienable right?
And the fact that someone wants to come here for better economic opportunity or a better quality of life ... that's no basis for a successful US legal residency claim either.
I don't suppose you ever thought that there might be different conditions for claiming residency status as opposed to refugee status? Or did it not occur to you that economic hardship is not sufficient to be considered a legitimate refugee? If they tried actually applying for citizenship instead, then Canada probably wouldn't be complaining so much.
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Post by Jadeite »

Was there outcry in Canada against the US plans to seal the border with Mexico more tightly? If so, their bitching about the US sending them illegal immigrants will be delicious.
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Post by Kanastrous »

Keevan_Colton wrote:Out of curiosity, do illegal immigrants in America receive social security cheques and housing and medical benefits?
If they avail themselves of the forged documents available for the asking...yes, they can.

Not legally, though.

Unless you consider emergency medical care, to be a 'medical benefit.' Which one might; it's also in large part why emergency rooms are folding in SoCal left, right, and center.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Kanastrous wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:Out of curiosity, do illegal immigrants in America receive social security cheques and housing and medical benefits?
If they avail themselves of the forged documents available for the asking...yes, they can.

Not legally, though.

Unless you consider emergency medical care, to be a 'medical benefit.' Which one might; it's also in large part why emergency rooms are folding in SoCal left, right, and center.
No, you'll find that they're folding because of the atrocious for profit model of health care that America clings to so dearly. It wastes more money than any other health care system in the world spends...emergency rooms end up dealing with problems because preventative care is too expensive...in a for profit model there is no real benefit to ensuring people dont get sick. Dont foist that problem on immigrants...

I do find the forged documentation thing amusing though, since if you proposed some kind of ID with anti-forgery systems and cross referencing to make forgery more difficult, your average Yank will pitch a fit...usually with reference to Orwell.
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Re: Mexican illegals seek refuge from ICE in Canada

Post by Kanastrous »

General Zod wrote:
As opposed to our lax border patrol on our end and poor regulation of business policies that actually make illegals view unconditional immigration as an inalienable right?
I'm unconcerned with what illegal immigrants view as 'their rights.' And I believe that, in order to get what the want to get by coming to the US, 'rights' have zero to do with it. People who don't view it as a 'right' to infiltrate into the US, but feel they need to do it anyway, are indistinguishable from people who do view it as their right, and behave accordingly. The results are interchangeable.

So far as I know (and I am open to correction) Canadian border security isn't any more rigorous than ours. Possibly less so. So whatever we're doing or not doing, with *our* borders, is irrelevant to who's showing up on Canada's. Especially when Canadians express the sentiment that our southern border is too tight, as it is (The US is bad for tightening borders, the US is bad for having borders loose enough that migrants cross them on the way to Canada; pick one or the other, guys).
General Zod wrote: I don't suppose you ever thought that there might be different conditions for claiming residency status as opposed to refugee status?
People are welcome to try and *claim* any old thing they like. I think we can safely say - based upon the content of the article we're discussing - that the majority of people showing up on Canada's doorstep are there for economic reasons, which aren't recognized as a basis for refugee status - are they? The figures contained in the text, certainly support that conclusion.
General Zod wrote:Or did it not occur to you that economic hardship is not sufficient to be considered a legitimate refugee?
Says so, right there in the article. I don't believe that most of these people are properly called 'refugees' of any sort, at all.
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Post by Kanastrous »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
No, you'll find that they're folding because of the atrocious for profit model of health care that America clings to so dearly.
I am unconvinced that people showing up in dire need of expensive medical treatment, for which (a) they cannot pay and (b) their tax-contributions don't even begin to justify, are not part of the problem.

Yes, health care in the US is a mess. And no messed-up system is improved by the influx of service-absorbing non-paying people into the pool.
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Re: Mexican illegals seek refuge from ICE in Canada

Post by General Zod »

Kanastrous wrote: People are welcome to try and *claim* any old thing they like. I think we can safely say - based upon the content of the article we're discussing - that the majority of people showing up on Canada's doorstep are there for economic reasons, which aren't recognized as a basis for refugee status - are they? The figures contained in the text, certainly support that conclusion.
Since you seemed to dodge my point, I'll make it simple for you. Why the fuck did you make an equivocation between residency status and refugee status when they clearly aren't the same thing?
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Post by Kanastrous »

Because in the context of the article, it's irrelevant which claim is being made.

What's relevant is people with no proper business showing up on your territory, trying to utilize your legal system to wangle permission to stay. Whether they are trying to get in based upon a supposed desire for refugee status, or a desire for residency doesn't matter, where the specific people we're talking about are simply economic migrants.

I honestly don't mean to come off like I'm dodging your point; it's usually safer to assume that I just missed it.
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Post by General Zod »

Kanastrous wrote:Because in the context of the article, it's irrelevant which claim is being made.

What's relevant is people with no proper business showing up on your territory, trying to utilize your legal system to wangle permission to stay. Whether they are trying to get in based upon a supposed desire for refugee status, or a desire for residency doesn't matter, where the specific people we're talking about are simply economic migrants.

I honestly don't mean to come off like I'm dodging your point; it's usually safer to assume that I just missed it.
But if they're filing for residency status or refugee status legally, your analogy fails. From what I can tell in the article, they were attempting to legitimately file for refugee status even though their justification was completely and utterly shit.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

In the US, anyone showing up at an emergency room has to be treated, whether or not they can pay. Illegals come there to get treatment for the FLU and any other ailments they have.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:In the US, anyone showing up at an emergency room has to be treated, whether or not they can pay. Illegals come there to get treatment for the FLU and any other ailments they have.
Guess what, anyone turning up at a hospital here has to be treated too, difference is that the NHS doesnt waste billions and sticks to it's mantra of "free at the point of need". There's this novel idea about actually saving money by helping people get medical treatment quickly and efficiently, preventing conditions from becoming critical...

Oh and just so you know, the flu can kill...though it's rarely an issue in the western world thanks to decent healthcare...
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:Out of curiosity, do illegal immigrants in America receive social security cheques and housing and medical benefits?
If they avail themselves of the forged documents available for the asking...yes, they can.

Not legally, though.

Unless you consider emergency medical care, to be a 'medical benefit.' Which one might; it's also in large part why emergency rooms are folding in SoCal left, right, and center.
No, you'll find that they're folding because of the atrocious for profit model of health care that America clings to so dearly. It wastes more money than any other health care system in the world spends...emergency rooms end up dealing with problems because preventative care is too expensive...in a for profit model there is no real benefit to ensuring people dont get sick. Dont foist that problem on immigrants...

I do find the forged documentation thing amusing though, since if you proposed some kind of ID with anti-forgery systems and cross referencing to make forgery more difficult, your average Yank will pitch a fit...usually with reference to Orwell.
Wow, those two posts weren't like leading questions or anything...or trying to set up some soapbox that doesn't directly pertain to what's going on, right?

You're a fucking retard. You need driver's licenses and social security numbers to do everything and they're already extensively forged. You don't think they try to do that anyway? That's not going to stop the economic incentive to come north.
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Post by Kanastrous »

General Zod wrote:
But if they're filing for residency status or refugee status legally, your analogy fails. From what I can tell in the article, they were attempting to legitimately file for refugee status even though their justification was completely and utterly shit.
I'm not sure that pro-forma going-through-channels matters, when the basis of your pro-forma going-through-the-channels is - as I think we agree - shit.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Actually fuckwit, the point was that people applying for refugee status in Canada get certain state benefits while their claim is reviewed. That is the strain that is being placed on Windsor, and what the letter to Harper is all about, they're basically requesting additional help to deal with this increased demand in a service they're obligated to provide. Shelter, food and medical care...

You'll also find that you can walk off with a sports car with the aid of stolen credit card or a forged fucking cheque, that doesnt mean that creating more secure transations isnt a good fucking idea, and it also doesnt mean that you're entitled to that fucking car...but you're just a stupid little fuck so drop dead...or even better pull a Howedar and just run the fuck away you snivelling little retard.

The simple matter is that Canada has a system in place to review refugee claims while providing the basic human rights as laid out in the UN Convention on Human rights and also in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, or had you forgotten that these refugees are folk with small children...heaven fucking forbid that someone want to keep their child alive with medical care that they cant get elsewhere...
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Post by Kanastrous »

Um...which of us is a fuckwit?

Me, or Illuminatus Primus (or do we share the prize...?)
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Kanastrous wrote:Um...which of us is a fuckwit?

Me, or Illuminatus Primus (or do we share the prize...?)
In this case Illuminatus. :wink:
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Post by Kanastrous »

*whew*

:)
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If you have to ask it's probably you. :P
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Post by Kanastrous »

:rotfl:
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Post by General Zod »

Kanastrous wrote: I'm not sure that pro-forma going-through-channels matters, when the basis of your pro-forma going-through-the-channels is - as I think we agree - shit.
Is the justification for seeking refugee status terrible? Yes. Is their method of seeking refugee status illegal? No? Then your comparison of utterly worthless.
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