Federation vs. Empire:Worse Underbelly?

[FaxModem1]

Ok, which of these two organizations has a more corrupt underbelly, with pirates, smugglers, mafia, warlords and the like.

I think its probably the Empire, but with all the corruption we saw going on with DS9 and the later seasons of TNG, I have to wonder.

Your thoughts?

[Coriolis]

Ok, which of these two organizations has a more corrupt underbelly, with pirates, smugglers, mafia, warlords and the like.

I think its probably the Empire, but with all the corruption we saw going on with DS9 and the later seasons of TNG, I have to wonder.

Your thoughts?

Well, in SW, you have what is essentially a legalized mafia with the Black Sun. You also have the Hutts and the occasional rogue admiral complete with coup attempts.

[Darth Wong]

The SW black market is vast, but so is the SW economy.

[Lord Revan]

How much of the underbelly of ST do we actually see?

I mean TOS, TNG and ENT have their focus on deep exploration vessel

VOY has it's focus on ship lost in middle of no where.

Only DS9 have it's focus on place where you could actually see the black market and/or organized crime.


the Star Wars movies and most of the EU have their focus on the Jedi Order and/or the Rebel Alliance thus giving us a much better view of the underworld of the galaxy.

[Isolder74]

Well for at least TOS we do have Harry Mudd whom shows up twice during the mission of the Enterprise. Harry was involved with smuggling illegal drugs and trafficing in 'mail order brides'

[lord Martiya]

I remember that Star Trek has the Orion Syndicate, a big interstellar mafia that in the Enterprise era had a little interstellar empire, apparently crushed by the Federation after the Earth-Romulan War.

[Ender]

I'd imagine the sheer number if independent polities in Trek allows for a much larger scale of backroom dealings. The varying interest and technology will have a wider market then the more homogenized SW one will.

[Darth Ruinus]

Well, since I am in class right now, I remember how this school used to have some kind of problem with Armenian gangs vs Mexican gangs (well, not really gangs, but "groups")

Going by that, with gangs or groups going against each other simply because of race or difference of cultures or whatever, then, would it be logical to assume that SW has a much, much larger criminal element?

Seriously, if there are 25 million sentient species in the SW galaxy, and we assume just one racially motivated gang for each species, wouldnt that itself be larger than any Trek criminal element?

That and the sheer size of the galaxy can be taken into account. The sheer amount of Hutt gangsters alone would be larger than a Trek mafia or whatevers. (Hell, a Hutt built a stripped down Superlaser, thats far more dangerous than any Trek criminal element has done, I think)

[lord Martiya]

Well, everything SW has is at least a magnitude bigger than its Fed equivalent. But in proportion, I think that the Federation has the worst underbelly: at least the Empire can deal with little problem with every criminal organization, tolerating them and sometimes USING them (the freighters that moved to Endor the resources for the Death Star II were owned by the legal cover of the Black Sun) until they don't cross the line (when the powerful Black Sun crossed the line was ruined in five minutes. And I don't want to know what the Empire will do to Tyber Zann after the 'joke' with the Eclipse), while the Federation was nearly ruined by its underbelly during Dominion War.

[Jark]

Well, everything SW has is at least a magnitude bigger than its Fed equivalent. But in proportion, I think that the Federation has the worst underbelly: at least the Empire can deal with little problem with every criminal organization, tolerating them and sometimes USING them (the freighters that moved to Endor the resources for the Death Star II were owned by the legal cover of the Black Sun) until they don't cross the line (when the powerful Black Sun crossed the line was ruined in five minutes. And I don't want to know what the Empire will do to Tyber Zann after the 'joke' with the Eclipse), while the Federation was nearly ruined by its underbelly during Dominion War.

The Federations underbelly almost wiped out all the Founders with the Section 31 virus. I don't really see any way this would have ruined the Federation as far as losing the war.

Was there something else that happened during the Dominion War involving the Federation underbelly?

[Darth Wong]

The Federations underbelly almost wiped out all the Founders with the Section 31 virus. I don't really see any way this would have ruined the Federation as far as losing the war.

Oh sure, there would have been no negative consequences at all from the Founders dying and ordering their hordes of fanatically violent Jem'Hadar soldiers and ships to exact vengeance for their genocide at all costs: an order which would now be impossible to countermand.

Not that Section 31 has to do with the Federation's "seamy underbelly" anyway. It was a clandestine wing of the government, after all.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, we do have the Orion Syndicate, though I am not sure about its current status as of ST:VOY and there abouts.

[Gandalf]

The Federations underbelly almost wiped out all the Founders with the Section 31 virus. I don't really see any way this would have ruined the Federation as far as losing the war.

Oh sure, there would have been no negative consequences at all from the Founders dying and ordering their hordes of fanatically violent Jem'Hadar soldiers and ships to exact vengeance for their genocide at all costs: an order which would now be impossible to countermand.

Not that Section 31 has to do with the Federation's "seamy underbelly" anyway. It was a clandestine wing of the government, after all.

Was there any evidence that the Founders even knew about the virus being a product of S31?

[The Nomad]

If Bashir could pinpoint Odo's date of infection with any accuracy even a short time before the symptoms occured, you can bet that so could the Dominion's technology, and that the Founders could spot the concordence between the infection of the Great Link and Odo's rejoining with them, and then make the link between his sojourn on Earth and his own contamination.

[lord Martiya]

If they thinked of it: the Federation is supposed by everyone to be the organization that don't do that sort of thing, so perhaps nobody thinked a similar link before the end of the war (the fact that the Federation had the cure is very suspect).

The Federations underbelly almost wiped out all the Founders with the Section 31 virus. I don't really see any way this would have ruined the Federation as far as losing the war.

Was there something else that happened during the Dominion War involving the Federation underbelly?

Well, I never considered the Section 31 part of Federation underbelly, but simply the intelligence agency who do the dirty part of the work. I referred to the Orion Syndicate: during Dominion War only an incredible luck permitted to the Federation to discover an Orion/Dominion plot to ruin the alliance between Klingon and Federation, in a moment when the Romulans were at the window.

[Jark]

If Bashir could pinpoint Odo's date of infection with any accuracy even a short time before the symptoms occured, you can bet that so could the Dominion's technology, and that the Founders could spot the concordence between the infection of the Great Link and Odo's rejoining with them, and then make the link between his sojourn on Earth and his own contamination.

Section 31 had modified Odos test results to cover up the fact that they had infected him. If not for Bashirs genetically enhanced mind, he would have never realized the coverup.

The Dominion had what seemed like more then half a year to work on the problem and there's nothing to say they even suspected the Federation or Odo of infecting them. No one outside Section 31 knew about this until Bashir figured it out and he told everyone.

[Jark]

If they thinked of it: the Federation is supposed by everyone to be the organization that don't do that sort of thing, so perhaps nobody thinked a similar link before the end of the war (the fact that the Federation had the cure is very suspect).

Well, I never considered the Section 31 part of Federation underbelly, but simply the intelligence agency who do the dirty part of the work. I referred to the Orion Syndicate: during Dominion War only an incredible luck permitted to the Federation to discover an Orion/Dominion plot to ruin the alliance between Klingon and Federation, in a moment when the Romulans were at the window.

Is the Orion Syndicate actually part of the Federation?

Oh sure, there would have been no negative consequences at all from the Founders dying and ordering their hordes of fanatically violent Jem'Hadar soldiers and ships to exact vengeance for their genocide at all costs: an order which would now be impossible to countermand.

Not that Section 31 has to do with the Federation's "seamy underbelly" anyway. It was a clandestine wing of the government, after all.

If it wasn't for Bashir, no one would've ever known it was Section 31 who did it.

[Darth Wong]

Oh for fuck's sake, they didn't have any hard evidence, but they had plenty of circumstantial evidence. They got infected by some kind of bioweapon while they were at war with the Federation! Is that supposed to be coincidental? The fact that they were obviously focused on finding a cure rather than proving the Federation did it (as if they would bother with some kind of elaborate police-style investigation) does not mean they would not have blamed the Federation and instructed their attack dogs to act accordingly if they died out.

[Ghost Rider]

The Federations underbelly almost wiped out all the Founders with the Section 31 virus. I don't really see any way this would have ruined the Federation as far as losing the war.

Oh sure, there would have been no negative consequences at all from the Founders dying and ordering their hordes of fanatically violent Jem'Hadar soldiers and ships to exact vengeance for their genocide at all costs: an order which would now be impossible to countermand.

Not that Section 31 has to do with the Federation's "seamy underbelly" anyway. It was a clandestine wing of the government, after all.

Was there any evidence that the Founders even knew about the virus being a product of S31?

Mike already answered it, but really...do you think they would've given a fuck?

They were on their way to destroying the Federation because the ornery solid ingrates were opposing them. They had access to one of them. From all appearances only the terminally stupid would not make the conclusion that the Federation were the ones behind it. Section 31 is just a pointless specfic.

[Jark]

Oh for fuck's sake, they didn't have any hard evidence, but they had plenty of circumstantial evidence. They got infected by some kind of bioweapon while they were at war with the Federation! Is that supposed to be coincidental? The fact that they were obviously focused on finding a cure rather than proving the Federation did it (as if they would bother with some kind of elaborate police-style investigation) does not mean they would not have blamed the Federation and instructed their attack dogs to act accordingly if they died out.

They would have had to know that they became infected before the war began since the female Founder on Cardassia was infected, and she'd been cut off from the rest of the Founders in the Gamma Quadrant since before the war began.

It's possible they would link the Federation to the disease, but up until the end of the series they hadn't done that. So if it's such an obvious conclusion to draw and they had at least a half years knowledge about the disease, why didn't we ever hear them say they suspected the Federation or anyone else of causing it? Nothing in their war plans seemed guided by getting answers from the Federation about the disease. It looks like they just didn't link the Federation to it at all.

[Teleros]

They might not openly link the Federation with the disease, but it'd be a toss-up between the Federation and Romulans, and we know who have the better scientists (and which one had their intelligence agency penetrated by the Founders).

[Lord Pounder]

Getting back to the OP, from what I've seen in SW and ST in the SW corner we have the likes of the Orions and Ferengi whi indulge in a little smuggling, piracy and occasional arms dealing. Compared to the likes of Black Sun who routinely bombed whole buildings just to get one cop, Hutts who relished slavery, drug dealing, piracy and extortion (with planet killing tech) it's simple to see who is infinately nastier.

[Ryan Thunder]

It looks like they just didn't link the Federation to it at all.

Perhaps, like under other situations involving "bad guys lol", the leaders were simply retarded?

Ok, maybe not. But considering how often that occurs, its gotta be a believable possibility, right?

[Ryan Thunder]

Wait... Never mind, I forgot it works both ways...

[Battlehymn Republic]

You know, on the subject of Tyber Zann's little Consortium, some SW boards I've read have brought up that at times in Imperial China, pirate warlords such as Ching Shih fielded immense fleets of thousands of pirates and dozens if not hundreds of ships, some of which had soldiers and sailors as capable if not better than those of the actual Imperial army. So perhaps it's not all so wanky after all.

What this means is that the underworld of the Empire is in far more tenuous hands than the Federation's.