"Who?! Who does not want to wear the flag pin?!"

[Gil Hamilton]

What's being missed on the issue is the Obama makes a really good point. Patriotism is something you do, not wear. Buying trinkets and slapping bumper stickers on your car doesn't sacrifice anything for your country and doesn't make you any more patriotic than anyone else.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

All you guys saying this thing is another reason for you to give him your vote: you are no better than the lunatics on the other side (on this issue).

His refusal to back an expansion of nuclear power and socialized healthcare in this country are far more important issues - they actually make a difference, not his stand on wearing a stupid little pin.

The politician who has the balls to make a hard stand on a real issue will have my attention.

Honestly, at this point, I've really stopped caring. Politicians can say whatever the fuck garbage they want, and whether or not it sounds good I've just stopped listening to it. Maybe my generation is just overly cynical when it comes to politics, I don't know.

So when someone like Obama comes along and gives the political finger to established trends (by actually doing something, minor though it may be), especially one as retarded as these fucking pins and "support the troops" ribbons and other shit, it catches my eye. Like Gil said, Obama actually has a point here. And it's little things like that, that while taken on their own are pretty insignificant in relation to real global affairs, when taken together they speak to Obama's character more than any long-winded, meandering and evasive speech on some topic that really says very little.

To me, that's far more important than specific positions on individual issues as long as the candidate is in the right ballpark, which Obama seems to be. It's very similar to why I would support Schwarzenegger if he were somehow able to run for President: He's a person, not another goddamn useless politician, even if I disagree with a few of his individual positions on issues.

[Darth Wong]

Every time I hear the phrase "flag pin", I keep thinking of that character from National Lampoon's Animal House (back from when National Lampoon actually made good comedies) who kept screaming "Pledge Pin!" with saliva spraying everywhere.

[Elaro]

So when someone like Obama comes along and gives the political finger to established trends (by actually doing something, minor though it may be), especially one as retarded as these fucking pins and "support the troops" ribbons and other shit, it catches my eye. Like Gil said, Obama actually has a point here. And it's little things like that, that while taken on their own are pretty insignificant in relation to real global affairs, when taken together they speak to Obama's character more than any long-winded, meandering and evasive speech on some topic that really says very little.

To me, that's far more important than specific positions on individual issues as long as the candidate is in the right ballpark, which Obama seems to be. It's very similar to why I would support Schwarzenegger if he were somehow able to run for President: He's a person, not another goddamn useless politician, even if I disagree with a few of his individual positions on issues.

While I certainly like Obama as a leader, I think this is a sad state for democracy to be in, that we prefer a man for his personality than for his views on important subjects. Then again, personality does determine views, so if a VIP has a personality we understand/like, perhaps we can change his opinion.

That is, if ordinary citizens could actually influence politicians.

[General Zod]

While I certainly like Obama as a leader, I think this is a sad state for democracy to be in, that we prefer a man for his personality than for his views on important subjects. Then again, personality does determine views, so if a VIP has a personality we understand/like, perhaps we can change his opinion.

That is, if ordinary citizens could actually influence politicians.

Unfortunately personality tends to speak louder than viewpoints with politicians. You can always change your view later to reflect new information, but personality is much harder to change. Obama comes off as reasonable which means he may be willing to change his stance on things like nuclear power.

[Guardsman Bass]

So when someone like Obama comes along and gives the political finger to established trends (by actually doing something, minor though it may be), especially one as retarded as these fucking pins and "support the troops" ribbons and other shit, it catches my eye. Like Gil said, Obama actually has a point here. And it's little things like that, that while taken on their own are pretty insignificant in relation to real global affairs, when taken together they speak to Obama's character more than any long-winded, meandering and evasive speech on some topic that really says very little.

To me, that's far more important than specific positions on individual issues as long as the candidate is in the right ballpark, which Obama seems to be. It's very similar to why I would support Schwarzenegger if he were somehow able to run for President: He's a person, not another goddamn useless politician, even if I disagree with a few of his individual positions on issues.

While I certainly like Obama as a leader, I think this is a sad state for democracy to be in, that we prefer a man for his personality than for his views on important subjects. Then again, personality does determine views, so if a VIP has a personality we understand/like, perhaps we can change his opinion.

That is, if ordinary citizens could actually influence politicians.

I think this "personality" focus really started coming into play when most of the population could either hear or see their candidate on radio or television. Before that, you'd have to go aways to see a candidate (hell, Warren Harding didn't even move his arse at all, and still won).

[Flagg]

Every time I hear the phrase "flag pin", I keep thinking of that character from National Lampoon's Animal House (back from when National Lampoon actually made good comedies) who kept screaming "Pledge Pin!" with saliva spraying everywhere.

I keep thinking about the restraunt manager from 'Office Space' going on and on about "flair".

[Oni Koneko Damien]

All you guys saying this thing is another reason for you to give him your vote: you are no better than the lunatics on the other side (on this issue).

His refusal to back an expansion of nuclear power and socialized healthcare in this country are far more important issues - they actually make a difference, not his stand on wearing a stupid little pin.

The politician who has the balls to make a hard stand on a real issue will have my attention.

Okay, let's see, due to the rampant, oversimplified, jingoist mob-nature of US society and it's full support by those in power right now, the economy is fucked, healthcare is in the shitter, we're stuck in a draining war in the middle east that's claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, funneled away billions of dollars, and put a whole lot of pressure on an already risky situation with regards to the most commonly used source of power, oil.

In other words: Jingoism and black/white symbolistic 'patriotic' idiocy, combined with a hefty dose of government and media supported fear, *has* become one of the, if not the biggest problem facing this country today. So when someone announces they are taking a stand against such idiotic cult following of a symbol, they are, by extension, claiming that they will directly confront the issue of jingoism.

So yeah, I actually see it as *quite* an important issue, as failure to confront it has led to several hundred thousand dead, many billions of dollars down the drain, and the fact that socialized health-care is a no-go in this country. But you go ahead and continue trying to pretend that directly opposing the millions of both voting idiots and idiots in the media and government willing to follow a symbol as opposed to the ideals it supposedly represents is a 'non-issue' and doesn't make any difference.

[SirNitram]

Wouldn't a really patriotic person get a flag tattoo right on his fucking forehead? Skip right to something permanent instead of that wussy assed sticking a removable pin on his clothes bullshit.

You fail to understand something: Once the evil Democrats seize power(Be it in 2008 or 3008), they will immediately revert to 'States Rights', 'Downfall of America' and of course, supporting militias.

[Shroom Man 777]

So, is Barack Obama a Persian Emissary who should be thrown down a bottomless pit? Or is Barack Obama a deformed hunchback traitor who should've been killed as a baby?

In Spartamerica, all children are inspected. Should they be sickly or deformed, then they will be discarded. So, fuck universal healthcare and child insurance bullshit!

[Gigaliel]

All you guys saying this thing is another reason for you to give him your vote: you are no better than the lunatics on the other side (on this issue).

His refusal to back an expansion of nuclear power and socialized healthcare in this country are far more important issues - they actually make a difference, not his stand on wearing a stupid little pin.

The politician who has the balls to make a hard stand on a real issue will have my attention.

Err, where did you get your information on nuclear power? During one of those silly CNN sponsored Youtube Debates the issue was brought up and he said he would not be opposed to the option and would put money into research make it 'safer'. That was a lot more positive then the the flat out "No" some other candidates gave. It's fairly deviant considering the crazy green vote that considers it Satan's work.

Transcript

CHARLESTON, South Carolina (CNN) -- QUESTION: Hi, my name is Shawn and I'm from Ann Arbor, Michigan. There is a scientific consensus for man-caused climate change, and I've heard each of you talk in previous debates about alternative energy sources like solar or wind, but I have not heard any of you speak your opinion on nuclear power. I believe that nuclear power is safer, cleaner, and provides a quicker avenue to energy independence than other alternatives.

QUESTION: I am curious what each of you believe.

COOPER: Senator Edwards?

EDWARDS: Wind, solar, cellulose-based biofuels are the way we need to go. I do not favor nuclear power. We haven't built a nuclear power plant in decades in this country. There is a reason for that. The reason is it is extremely costly. It takes an enormous amount of time to get one planned, developed and built. And we still don't have a safe way to dispose of the nuclear waste. It is a huge problem for America over the long term.

I also don't believe we should liquefy coal. The last thing we need is another carbon-based fuel in America. We need to find fuels that are in fact renewable, clean, and will allow us to address directly the question that has been raised, which is the issue of global warming, which I believe is a crisis.

COOPER: Senator Obama?

OBAMA: I actually think that we should explore nuclear power as part of the energy mix. There are no silver bullets to this issue. We have to develop solar. I have proposed drastically increasing fuel efficiency standards on cars, an aggressive cap on the amount of greenhouse gases that can be emitted.

OBAMA: But we're going to have to try a series of different approaches.

The one thing I have to remind folks, though, of -- we've been talking about this through Republican administrations and Democratic administrations for decades.

And the reason it doesn't change -- you can take a look at how Dick Cheney did his energy policy. He met with environmental groups once. He met with renewable energy folks once. And then he met with oil and gas companies 40 times. And that's how they put together our energy policy. We've got to put the national interests ahead of special interests, and that's what I'll do as president of the United States.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Senator Clinton, what is Senator Edwards -- why is he wrong on nuclear power?

CLINTON: First of all, I have proposed a strategic energy fund that I would fund by taking away the tax break for the oil companies, which have gotten much greater under Bush and Cheney.

(APPLAUSE)

And we could spend about $50 billion doing what America does best. It's time we start acting like Americans again.

CLINTON: We can solve these problems if we focus on innovation and technology.

So, yes, all these alternative forms of energy are important. So is fuel efficiency for cars and so is energy efficiency for buildings.

I'm agnostic about nuclear power. John is right, that until we figure out what we're going to do with the waste and the cost, it's very hard to see nuclear as a part of our future. But that's where American technology comes in. Let's figure out what we're going to do about the waste and the cost if we think nuclear should be a part of the solution.

But this issue of energy and global warming has the promise of creating millions of new jobs in America.

COOPER: Time.

CLINTON: So it can be a win-win, if we do it right.

Hillary is slightly less upbeat, but better than Edwards.

Any Presidential position on health care that is above 'status quo' gets a bonus since the President will have to co-operate with Congress extensively if anything is to get done. Since the Dem consensus is "National Health Care", I'm not too worried unless the Republicans make a sweep by some antimiracle.

Not that this really matters since polls indicated Hillary will win the primary unless she eats a baby at this point. Oh the wonders of carefully planning your candidacy for a decade (slight exaggeration).

[Darth Wong]

Obama has said some thing I disagree with, but at least with him, I get an impression that he's actually saying something that resembles his personal opinion. With Hillary, I don't really get any impression other than "this is what my handlers told me to say".

Of course, that cuts both ways. With Guiliani, I also get the impression that he's actually giving his personal opinion, and that's just terrifying.

[Lisa]

so where's Hannity's pin? Maybe he doesn't support the troops and doesn't like America.

[Mr. T]

All you guys saying this thing is another reason for you to give him your vote: you are no better than the lunatics on the other side (on this issue).

His refusal to back an expansion of nuclear power and socialized healthcare in this country are far more important issues - they actually make a difference, not his stand on wearing a stupid little pin.

The politician who has the balls to make a hard stand on a real issue will have my attention.

But Obama as far as what I can tell from his statements is in favour of expanding both nuclear power and health insurance (though not socialized). I havn't looked in to his exact policy proposals but everything he's said so far on healthcare and nuclear power has been a step in the right direction.

The fact that he's not advocating socialized healthcare for all and an immediate order of 400 pebble bed reactors just means he is choosing what can realistically get him elected. Sure it's not ideal but I'd think that a candidate that is at least moving in the right direction under what is realistically achievable in the current climate should get some credit.

[Durandal]

Every time I hear the phrase "flag pin", I keep thinking of that character from National Lampoon's Animal House (back from when National Lampoon actually made good comedies) who kept screaming "Pledge Pin!" with saliva spraying everywhere.

Douglas C. Neidermeyer. Shot and killed by his own men in Vietnam.

[Civil War Man]

Every time I hear the phrase "flag pin", I keep thinking of that character from National Lampoon's Animal House (back from when National Lampoon actually made good comedies) who kept screaming "Pledge Pin!" with saliva spraying everywhere.

Douglas C. Neidermeyer. Shot and killed by his own men in Vietnam.

Though prior to that, he gets his ass kicked by Twisted Sister

[Spyder]

Thanks, although I don't think it's that profound. We're all human beings after all, with the same base instincts, so one should have always suspected that there would be some rich-white-guy analogue for the "gangsta" mindset. The only thing that sets me apart is the fact that I'm blunt enough to say things like that.

PS. Also look at how they are both contemptuous of intellectuals: another very clear point of similarity.

Explains why they're also anti-progressive. The idea that a lot of negative things in our society stem from base instincts and we should be trying to do better, gradually progressing to a more civilised society just sounds hard.

[Elfdart]

Every time I hear the phrase "flag pin", I keep thinking of that character from National Lampoon's Animal House (back from when National Lampoon actually made good comedies) who kept screaming "Pledge Pin!" with saliva spraying everywhere.

Douglas C. Neidermeyer. Shot and killed by his own men in Vietnam.

Though prior to that, he gets his ass kicked by Twisted Sister

But remember, you are all worthless and weak. Dean Wormer is going to put everyone on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION!


No more fun of any kind!

[Drooling Iguana]

Oh great, the old "He's not a shining saint that'll fix all the world's problems with a wave of his hand and a blast of pixie-dust from his arse, so therefore he's not worth my vote" argument. It was stupid in 2004, it's stupid now.

[Knife]

Oh great, the old "He's not a shining saint that'll fix all the world's problems with a wave of his hand and a blast of pixie-dust from his arse, so therefore he's not worth my vote" argument. It was stupid in 2004, it's stupid now.

Bullshit, it's the old- he's saying what he thinks we want rather than what he wants and I might want.

Lets face it, it's a fucking year till the election with quit a few canidates. If they all spew the middle or even get couragous and spew slightly to the right or left of middle, they're not spouting anything new.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

<snip explanation about why anyone who doesn't advocate a complete overhaul of the system isn't good enough for my vote>

So you're saying that no one is good enough for your vote. There's idealism, then there's a flat denial of reality, which is what you're engaging in. This mythical candidate you advocate, I'm sad to say, does not exist. If he/she/it did, they wouldn't even make it to the primaries because they'd be shouted down by their handlers, everyone else in power, the media, and the vast majority of an ignorant populace.

Obama isn't the 'ideal' candidate by a long shot, but he is by far the best of what we have to choose from, and he's done and said a decent number of things that are fucking awesome and ballsy for any candidate to do in the current, jingoistic climate.

Bullshit, it's the old- he's saying what he thinks we want rather than what he wants and I might want.

Oh, so you're claiming that a vast majority of the rural, media-led populace *doesn't* support the jingoistic, talking-point, simplistic, black-white, fear-mongering bullshit that the republicans have successfully used to keep themselves in power for the past near decade? Because that's what Obama is speaking out against, and following your logic, he must only be doing it because that's what he thinks the majority of the voting public *wants* to hear.

[Knife]

Oh, so you're claiming that a vast majority of the rural, media-led populace *doesn't* support the jingoistic, talking-point, simplistic, black-white, fear-mongering bullshit that the republicans have successfully used to keep themselves in power for the past near decade?

Whew, need anymore straw in that statment?

Because that's what Obama is speaking out against, and following your logic, he must only be doing it because that's what he thinks the majority of the voting public *wants* to hear.

What's Obama speaking out against now? And what majority? Democrats, Republicans or the voters?

[Guardsman Bass]

Oh, for hell's sake, he didn't say he wouldn't vote, period:

Of course, when next November comes and it is one of these pussy moderates vs a nutjob or two pussy moderates, I'll probably end up going for the lesser of two evils (a half step in the right direction is better than nothing), which will end up offending few, but not really pleasing anyone either.

In any case, all I can hope is that the Democrats hold onto a majority (and hopefully get a filibuster-proof majority) in both Houses in 2008. Things are looking good for them in terms of elections, although the difficulties over getting past Bush are hurting their legislation, along with the limitations inherent in barely controlling the Senate.

[Mr. T]

Oh, for hell's sake, he didn't say he wouldn't vote, period:

Of course, when next November comes and it is one of these pussy moderates vs a nutjob or two pussy moderates, I'll probably end up going for the lesser of two evils (a half step in the right direction is better than nothing), which will end up offending few, but not really pleasing anyone either.

In any case, all I can hope is that the Democrats hold onto a majority (and hopefully get a filibuster-proof majority) in both Houses in 2008. Things are looking good for them in terms of elections, although the difficulties over getting past Bush are hurting their legislation, along with the limitations inherent in barely controlling the Senate.

How are things looking good for them? Aren't they polling an all time low of something like 11% approval?

[Dargos]

I said back in 2002 that I find those pins creepy, and I still find them creepy.