Christianity makes sense to me.

[Rye]

Since joining Hezbollah my life has such clarity of purpose and a fine sense of achievement and brotherhood.

[Stark]

Since joining Hezbollah my life has such clarity of purpose and a fine sense of achievement and brotherhood.

Any attempt to disuade you from this baseless belief is woefully intolerant and marks me as close-minded.

Oh wait, that only works for Christians. Hypocrisy what?

[Flagg]

Since joining Hezbollah my life has such clarity of purpose and a fine sense of achievement and brotherhood.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter!

[Zablorg]

Since joining Hezbollah my life has such clarity of purpose and a fine sense of achievement and brotherhood.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter!

Nonono, don't do that, it's nothing more than a pamphlet filled with heresy and lies!

Join Zablorganity. We've got free tacos.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Since joining Hezbollah my life has such clarity of purpose and a fine sense of achievement and brotherhood.

GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAALLLL! |----|

[Darth Wong]

Again, further apologies. I don't mean to clutter up your forum.

The only evidence I can give you is that of my own experience. If I attempt to do what Jesus said and did - love others, forgive, take care of the poor and the marginalised - then my life makes a lot more sense to me.

And you don't feel that any of those activities would make sense without Jesus?

I've been around a long time. I tried living a hedonistic life. I tried being a good person, under my own steam. I had limited success at both of those! I can't give any scientific evidence - all I can say is that when I handed things over to God - when I started believing, life changed immeasureably.

In other words, you don't have what it takes to be an independent functional human being, so you need your crutch.

I'm a normal, well-rounded individual, with a robust sense of humour, and a truly open mind, I believe.

But you just admitted that you can't hack it without your religion crutch. That means you're not a normal, well-rounded individual.

I guess my motivation for posting what I did was thinking that maybe someone might be inclined to think again before condemning the whole Christian thing.

And in so doing, you prove quite conclusively that you've never bothered reading anything written on this site, because there is absolutely nothing about your argument that hasn't been seen before. The "I need my crutch" argument is one of the more spectacularly pitiful examples of Christian apologist thinking, and in no way legitimizes your faith. Like you, drug addicts suffer withdrawal symptoms without their crutch; does this mean the crutch is good?

Was it Gandhi who said 'I love your Christ, but I don't like your Christians'? Heck, I know that people do terrible things in the name of Christianity. But Jesus is deserving of better. I believe God is a loving creator, and we were designed to have a relationship with Him. (yeah, I know, to most of you that must sound silly).

In your case, this relationship appears to be a dysfunctional codependent one, since you admitted that you can't hack it as a human being otherwise.

I am passionate about science, by the way. An illustration of my own personal beliefs is via a quote from Harvard astronomer, Owen Gingerich:

'the universe has been created with intention and purpose, and....this belief does not interfere with the scientific enterprise'.

Enthusiasm is no substitute for comprehension.

[petesampras]

This *guys* post reeks of attention seeking. Genuine religious loons will come with some sort of strategy. This guys has none. Just a troll.

[Patrick Degan]

The only evidence I can give you is that of my own experience. If I attempt to do what Jesus said and did - love others, forgive, take care of the poor and the marginalised - then my life makes a lot more sense to me.

Yes, and that's nice and all. But none of that really requires you to believe in an Invisible Cloud-Being or the allegedly-living presence of its alleged son, does it?

I've been around a long time. I tried living a hedonistic life. I tried being a good person, under my own steam. I had limited success at both of those! I can't give any scientific evidence - all I can say is that when I handed things over to God - when I started believing, life changed immeasureably.

I'm a normal, well-rounded individual, with a robust sense of humour, and a truly open mind, I believe. I guess my motivation for posting what I did was thinking that maybe someone might be inclined to think again before condemning the whole Christian thing. Was it Gandhi who said 'I love your Christ, but I don't like your Christians'? Heck, I know that people do terrible things in the name of Christianity. But Jesus is deserving of better.

Hmm... You sound a bit like a co-worker of mine who's also been recently "Born Again" after a life as an alcoholic and a drug addict. The problem is that he's still an addictive personality, only he's switched his drug of choice to Jesus instead of cocaine. He hasn't really made the decision to be an adult; to take on the total responsibility for his life and to put in the work required to truly make himself a better person, but has given himself over to the Invisible Cloud-Being instead. He's also on his little Happy High right now, having found the new potent drug in his life. But eventually that's going to stop working for him the same way the cocaine did and he'll be back in the same boat again, wondering why things don't make sense and why he's so miserable.

I believe God is a loving creator, and we were designed to have a relationship with Him. (yeah, I know, to most of you that must sound silly).

It "sounds silly" because it actually makes no sense no matter how you look at it. Look at it this way: assume God exists and actually did the creation as advertised and whipped up an entire universe which we now know to be some 13.5 billion years old, extends in a radius of 13.5 billion light years and contains some hundreds of thousands of galaxies. In all this, Earth is a tiny, submicroscopic dot on a submicroscopic dot and its denizens even tinier than that, whose entire history occupies only the tiniest fraction of that 13.5 billion year timespan. You'd think a cosmic being (which God would have to be by definition) would have better things to do than obsessing over the devotion (or lack thereof), of things as infinitesimally tiny as human beings. That would be sort of like my obsessing over the doings of a small bunch of subatomic particles in my thumbnail.

But beyond that, you're left wondering what created God? If the retort to that question is "God always existed", then why not save a step and simply say "the universe always existed"? The universe is actually an observable phenomenon, whereas God's existence has to be assumed.

At the end of the day, the whole notion that there exists a god who is intensely concerned with human beings works only for people who have no sense of scale. Such as the people who wrote the Bible, for example.

This is why the idea of the Invisible Cloud-Being makes no sense; even less so the notion that it would incarnate as its own son to sacrifice itself to appease itself to lift a curse it itself imposed.

[Stark]

Remember, Patrick, that 'designed to have a relationship' is secret code for 'forced to worship and adore by threats of incredible irrevocable suffering' and 'forced to participate in bizarre rituals and prop up church organisations by interpreters and so-called prophets he never bothers to correct'.

It's pretty sad that I've never needed this kind of bullshit in my life. By the time I was reading science textbooks at 8-9, it seemed obvious that human life exists to propagate itself like other life, and that we're just niche-filling DNA distribution mechanisms with delusions of grandeur. I'm still an ethical, caring, tolerant person. I don't understand why people 'need to believe', as it seems to me like a huge cowardly cop-out.

[Darth Wong]

"Personal relationship with Jesus Christ" is not a whole lot different from any other fantasy infatuation with a fictional character. You make up all kinds of fantasy interactions with this person and you imagine how he must think of you, whether he's proud of you, what he would want you to do if he knew you, etc. The "relationship" is not between you and an external agent, but you and a fantasy friend.

They say a lot of children have imaginary friends, and that it's perfectly healthy and normal, but we'll generally grow out of it. I guess some of us just can't handle adulthood.

[CaptJodan]

Morally there are many other ethical paragons throughout history, as the 'Son of the Greatest Mass Murderer in History' he's not worthy of respect, and his 'sacrifice' is nothing of the fucking sort since it was all his destiny to rise again ANYWAY.

This is always something that had bothered me long before I stopped believing in the invisible sky pixie. The sacrifice itself made no sense. Christians hold up what Jesus supposedly did ("He died for your sins, man. How can you not like him? You could never do that like he did") as some kind of sacrifice that took a hell of a lot of balls to go through with. Thing is, Jesus knew all this shit was going down prior to being nailed. Irrespective of the inconsistencies and wacked up logic of the whole sacrifice, if I knew I was the key to saving the human race from an eternity of torture (with the obvious benefit of being known throughout time in this case), I'd go along with it because it's the right choice. The fact that I'm reborn/alive/whatever again 3 days later is a bonus. This wasn't a tough call, and I don't consider it much of a sacrifice.

To me, some Medic going out into a hail of bullets to try and rescue a fallen comrade, or covering up a body of a comrade to protect the wounded man, or even a firefighter going into a blaze they know they might not make it out of to rescue someone and buying it in the process deserves a hell of a lot more respect. That person is sacrificing not for fame, glory, and some divine purpose. It's just one person trying to save another person's life. I don't see how Jesus' "sacrifice" is really all that awe inspiring.

You throw in the lack of logic of such a sacrifice even being necessary, and the whole thing blows up in your face. Humanity has shown more compassion and given more in sacrifice for less than God/Jesus ever has.

[Drooling Iguana]

Jesus gave up an entire weekend for our sins!

[aerius]

Jesus gave up an entire weekend for our sins!

He did?

And here I thought Easter was all about finding the chocolate cream eggs left behind by the Cadbury Bunny.

[Soldier of Entropy]

Hey, this guy didn't come in here saying

You will all burn in hell if you don't convert! Praise JEEBUS!!!

All he did was say he believes it. He's not saying religion should have a part in government, or in schools, or anywhere else. He didn't even claim that it was logical. He just has faith; I say fine. Live and let live. Let him have what we see as illusions, lies, and half-truths. If we try to proseletize, then how are we better than religious people who do so. Leave him be; I say, just ignore his post for the most part. Even if this is flamebait, it solves the problem.

And to you, Basic Model, you have faith. I don't. I never had faith in Jesus, and I have not had faith in the Semetic God in any form for several years, because I decided that the god concept was logically unteneable. OK by me. Is that OK by you?

[Frank Hipper]

If there was an all powerful, all knowing, perfect god, the world of "free willed" human beings simply could not exist.

God, as advertised, is an impossibility.

This isn't exactly brain surgery.

[General Zod]

All he did was say he believes it. He's not saying religion should have a part in government, or in schools, or anywhere else. He didn't even claim that it was logical. He just has faith; I say fine. Live and let live. Let him have what we see as illusions, lies, and half-truths. If we try to proseletize, then how are we better than religious people who do so. Leave him be; I say, just ignore his post for the most part. Even if this is flamebait, it solves the problem.

Speaking of falmebait. Here I was under the impression the point of posting on this forum was to discuss things, not circle jerk about whatever sky pixie you happen to believe in. If you don't want something to be discussed, then don't post your opinion on it. By the way, who the fuck is proselytizing, moron?

[Covenant]

If we try to proseletize, then how are we better than religious people who do so.

This doesn't make the proper sense you think it does. The problem with fundies who evangelize isn't that they're trying to share their views and convince us of them, which is fine, but that their ideas are unsubstantiated bullshit that greatly harms society.

A scientific "evangelist" who goes out to convince people that the Earth rotates around the sun is nothing like a Christian evangelist who goes around teaching people that AIDS is packaged into condoms.

It's not the fact that we're being given a message that makes an evangelist a worthless dogfucker, it's that the message they are spreading is a message that hurts people and perpetuates an extremely negative society.

And to you, Basic Model, you have faith. I don't. I never had faith in Jesus, and I have not had faith in the Semetic God in any form for several years, because I decided that the god concept was logically unteneable. OK by me. Is that OK by you?

Honestly, I think it's kinda ridiculous that anyone should ask permission not to believe from this guy--even if it's just to quell the flames. Regardless of the answer, it'll be offensive, and I'll explain why:

Are you open-minded enough to allow this post remain on the forum?

He's calling into question our open-mindedness. Thing is, we are not closed-minded whatsoever, and the idea that we'd be deleting this thread because we somehow hate anyone trying to bring evidence for god, or so on, is offensive. It calls into question the very basis of an atheistic skepticism--that we have an open mind, examined the evidence, and found the support for a God lacking.

Being open-minded has to do with listening and sharing views. He's not here to share a view, just to state his faith--and furthermore:

I guess my motivation for posting what I did was thinking that maybe someone might be inclined to think again before condemning the whole Christian thing.

Why? Based on what? On the idea that we might be hurting his feelings? Or that his touching relationship with God in some way reflects on us? Open-mindedness depends on people sharing ideas, discussing things, and arriving on a conclusion based on as unbiased an approach as humanly possible.

If someone is going to call me closed-minded, and ask me that I not be so critical as to an ideology, and not bring any sort of evidence to the table... then that's just slander. Give me a break.

[SirNitram]

If we try to proseletize, then how are we better than religious people who do so.

Less intolerant, humanist moral values, stronger ties to objective reality, logical arguments, and so forth.

[Darth Wong]

Hey, this guy didn't come in here saying

You will all burn in hell if you don't convert! Praise JEEBUS!!!

All he did was say he believes it. He's not saying religion should have a part in government, or in schools, or anywhere else. He didn't even claim that it was logical. He just has faith; I say fine. Live and let live.

Since when does "live and let live" mean "you are not allowed to criticize"? You're a fucking moron.

This imbecile didn't just say that he has a fondness for Christianity; he said that he thinks it makes sense, fucktard. That's a claim of logical validity, and is just as much subject to withering criticism as a claim that the Earth is flat.

[Ender]

Apologies - it's clear now that this forum is designed for like-minded people; I didn't mean to cause trouble by posting. Just wanted to say my little bit. Wasn't setting out to anger or evangelise - I'm a legitimate member of this forum, and I wanted to know if my views would be tolerated here.

Nonsense and other comments. Your first post ended in a childish challenge. You came to make a scene.

[Darth Wong]

It's interesting how Christians think "tolerance" means "letting them live in our communities without beating them up, even if we don't give them equal rights" when they're talking about gays, but they think it means "refusing to criticize" when they're talking about themselves.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I really find the 'are you tolerant enough to allow this post on your forum' to be hilarious, offensive, and ironic all at the same time.

There's a whole USERGROUP on this board for talking about Christianity in a supportive, friendly way. Lots of posters use it, though it doesn't see a whole lot of action.

[Darth Wong]

Ironically enough, I'd bet good money that if this person ever set up a forum and someone came on to say that Christianity doesn't make any sense and is obviously nothing more than primitive superstitious nonsense, that post would be deleted immediately. I have never seen a Christian forum which is even remotely tolerant of dissenting viewpoints unless they're wrapped up in so many disclaimers that they end up sounding more like apologies than viewpoints. And usually not even then. Meanwhile, atheist and freethinker websites generally allow Christians to post and make arguments (at least until they start trolling or sounding like a broken record); they just tend to blast them for being stupid, or "very poorly thought-out", which is the polite version.

And the most annoying thing is that Christians never see anything wrong with this huge double-standard, where atheists are expected to be so incredibly "tolerant" that they're not allowed to say anything in response to a Christian, while Christians don't have to tolerate anything that annoys them.

[Ender]

Ironically enough, I'd bet good money that if this person ever set up a forum and someone came on to say that Christianity doesn't make any sense and is obviously nothing more than primitive superstitious nonsense, that post would be deleted immediately. I have never seen a Christian forum which is even remotely tolerant of dissenting viewpoints unless they're wrapped up in so many disclaimers that they end up sounding more like apologies than viewpoints. And usually not even then. Meanwhile, atheist and freethinker websites generally allow Christians to post and make arguments (at least until they start trolling or sounding like a broken record); they just tend to blast them for being stupid, or "very poorly thought-out", which is the polite version.

And the most annoying thing is that Christians never see anything wrong with this huge double-standard, where atheists are expected to be so incredibly "tolerant" that they're not allowed to say anything in response to a Christian, while Christians don't have to tolerate anything that annoys them.

S*P has an relevant example based off the author's personal experience

[DPDarkPrimus]

Wong, it's hard enough to find a Christian message board that doesn't outright state in the rules that questioning the faith is grounds for banning.