WaPo Interrogators: Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII

Interrogators Fought 'Battle of Wits'

By Petula Dvorak
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, October 6, 2007; A01

For six decades, they held their silence.

The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.

When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects.

Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Blunt criticism of modern enemy interrogations was a common refrain at the ceremonies held beside the Potomac River near Alexandria. Across the river, President Bush defended his administration's methods of detaining and questioning terrorism suspects during an Oval Office appearance.

Several of the veterans, all men in their 80s and 90s, denounced the controversial techniques. And when the time came for them to accept honors from the Army's Freedom Team Salute, one veteran refused, citing his opposition to the war in Iraq and procedures that have been used at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

"I feel like the military is using us to say, 'We did spooky stuff then, so it's okay to do it now,' " said Arno Mayer, 81, a professor of European history at Princeton University.

When Peter Weiss, 82, went up to receive his award, he commandeered the microphone and gave his piece.

"I am deeply honored to be here, but I want to make it clear that my presence here is not in support of the current war," said Weiss, chairman of the Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy and a human rights and trademark lawyer in New York City.

The veterans of P.O. Box 1142, a top-secret installation in Fairfax County that went only by its postal code name, were brought back to Fort Hunt by park rangers who are piecing together a portrait of what happened there during the war.

Nearly 4,000 prisoners of war, most of them German scientists and submariners, were brought in for questioning for days, even weeks, before their presence was reported to the Red Cross, a process that did not comply with the Geneva Conventions. Many of the interrogators were refugees from the Third Reich.

"We did it with a certain amount of respect and justice," said John Gunther Dean, 81, who became a career Foreign Service officer and ambassador to Denmark.

The interrogators had standards that remain a source of pride and honor.

"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."

Exactly what went on behind the barbed-wire fences of Fort Hunt has been a mystery that has lured amateur historians and curious neighbors for decades.

During the war, nearby residents watched buses with darkened windows roar toward the fort day and night. They couldn't have imagined that groundbreaking secrets in rocketry, microwave technology and submarine tactics were being peeled apart right on the grounds that are now a popular picnic area where moonbounces mushroom every weekend.

When Vincent Santucci arrived at the National Park Service's George Washington Memorial Parkway office as chief ranger four years ago, he asked his cultural resource specialist, Brandon Bies, to do some research so they could post signs throughout the park, explaining its history and giving it a bit more dignity.

That assignment changed dramatically when ranger Dana Dierkes was leading a tour of the park one day and someone told her about a rumored Fort Hunt veteran.

It was Fred Michel, who worked in engineering in Alexandria for 65 years, never telling his neighbors that he once faced off with prisoners and pried wartime secrets from them.

Michel directed them to other vets, and they remembered others.

Bies went from being a ranger researching mountains of topics in stacks of papers to flying across the country, camera and klieg lights in tow, to document the fading memories of veterans.

He, Santucci and others have spent hours trying to sharpen the focus of gauzy memories, coaxing complex details from men who swore on their generation's honor to never speak of the work they did at P.O. Box 1142.

"The National Park Service is committed to telling your story, and now it belongs to the nation," said David Vela, superintendent of the George Washington Memorial Parkway.

There is a deadline. Each day, about 1,100 World War II veterans die, said Jean Davis, spokeswoman for the U.S. Army's Freedom Team Salute program, which recognizes veterans and the parents, spouses and employers who provide support for active-duty soldiers.

By gathering at Fort Hunt yesterday, the quiet men could be saluted for the work they did so long ago.

[Patrick Degan]

Back then, the purpose of interrogation was to fulfill the need for gaining vital information to win an actual war of national survival.

Today, it seems the purpose of torture is simply to fulfill the sadism of the criminal gang in the Bush Maladministration.

[Flagg]

Back then, the purpose of interrogation was to fulfill the need for gaining vital information to win an actual war of national survival.

Today, it seems the purpose of torture is simply to fulfill the sadism of the criminal gang in the Bush Maladministration.

Yeah, and they didn't even torture thos guys. And they were Nazis. You're almost supposed to torture Nazis.

[MKSheppard]

It's kind of easy if all you have to say is:

"I hear they've been talking about transferring you guys over to the Russians."

*shocked silence*

"Now, I know I can't do much about things that happen above my paygrade, but I can put in a word with my superiors."

*Prisoner starts talking non-stop*

You'd be surprised how often that worked.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's kind of easy if all you have to say is:

"I hear they've been talking about transferring you guys over to the Russians."

*shocked silence*

"Now, I know I can't do much about things that happen above my paygrade, but I can put in a word with my superiors."

*Prisoner starts talking non-stop*

You'd be surprised how often that worked.

So... where does the chess fit in?

[Keevan_Colton]

So... where does the chess fit in?

Best two out of three or you get sent to the ruskies?

[Flagg]

It's kind of easy if all you have to say is:

"I hear they've been talking about transferring you guys over to the Russians."

*shocked silence*

"Now, I know I can't do much about things that happen above my paygrade, but I can put in a word with my superiors."

*Prisoner starts talking non-stop*

You'd be surprised how often that worked.

You mean using deception in interrogation works? My god man, get on the phone to hundreds of fucking years ago.

[MKSheppard]

So... where does the chess fit in?

Basic interrogation 101; try to establish a rapport with the subject being interrogated; talk about anything, like the weather back home, where they're from, blah blah blah; get them talking, and slowly steer them onto the subject you want.

Of course, this only works if the subject is semi-cooperative, not shouting "DEATH INFIDEL PIGS, MOHAMMED DIRKA DIRKA JIHAD!"

That's where the deceptive threats come in. Back then, you could use the Russians as a threat to make them start talking; but today we can't threaten to begin feeding them pork lard in their meals, or some silly thing that takes advantage of their religion, due to damn PCness.

[Big Phil]

It's kind of easy if all you have to say is:

"I hear they've been talking about transferring you guys over to the Russians."

*shocked silence*

"Now, I know I can't do much about things that happen above my paygrade, but I can put in a word with my superiors."

*Prisoner starts talking non-stop*

You'd be surprised how often that worked.

It's kind of easy if all you have to say is:

"I hear they've been talking about transferring you guys over to the Saudis/Pakistanis/Pashtuns/Shiites/Sunnis/Kurds."


Fucking dumbshit...

[MKSheppard]

"I hear they've been talking about transferring you guys over to the Saudis/Pakistanis/Pashtuns/Shiites/Sunnis/Kurds."

Oh no doubt we have. Witness the CIA's "rendition" flights. However, I doubt that it has the kind of effect that "We're sending you to the Russians" had on the Germans, who all damn well knew what was going on in the East, and knew that the bill was coming due, courtesy of the Red Army.

[CC]

So... where does the chess fit in?

Basic interrogation 101; try to establish a rapport with the subject being interrogated; talk about anything, like the weather back home, where they're from, blah blah blah; get them talking, and slowly steer them onto the subject you want.

Of course, this only works if the subject is semi-cooperative, not shouting "DEATH INFIDEL PIGS, MOHAMMED DIRKA DIRKA JIHAD!"

That's where the deceptive threats come in. Back then, you could use the Russians as a threat to make them start talking; but today we can't threaten to begin feeding them pork lard in their meals, or some silly thing that takes advantage of their religion, due to damn PCness.

So let me get this straight:

We're too afraid of political correctness to threaten them with feeding them pork and such, but we are not so afraid of political correctness or simply decent enough human beings to refrain from torturing them, which at the very least has the same PC folk complaining and most likely has additional people mad at the services.

Would you please explain how that's supposed to make any sense whatsoever?

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

So... where does the chess fit in?

Basic interrogation 101; try to establish a rapport with the subject being interrogated; talk about anything, like the weather back home, where they're from, blah blah blah; get them talking, and slowly steer them onto the subject you want.

Of course, this only works if the subject is semi-cooperative, not shouting "DEATH INFIDEL PIGS, MOHAMMED DIRKA DIRKA JIHAD!"

That's where the deceptive threats come in. Back then, you could use the Russians as a threat to make them start talking; but today we can't threaten to begin feeding them pork lard in their meals, or some silly thing that takes advantage of their religion, due to damn PCness.

So let me get this straight:

We're too afraid of political correctness to threaten them with feeding them pork and such, but we are not so afraid of political correctness or simply decent enough human beings to refrain from torturing them, which at the very least has the same PC folk complaining and most likely has additional people mad at the services.

Would you please explain how that's supposed to make any sense whatsoever?

Houston, I believe the Shep Code has been cracked. We can all go home now.

Yeah, that's basically what he said, CC. It's ok to wantonly torture, rape, maim, and kill; but God help you if you touch someone's religion or neverending-profit gravy train!

[MKSheppard]

Would you please explain how that's supposed to make any sense whatsoever?

It doesn't. That's the whole damn point.

To memorably quote Apocalypse Now:

"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"

[Spice Runner]

I think what Shep is trying to say is that we should use these radical islamic fuckers' religion against them rather resorting to torture and maiming but it doesn't happen as religion is a fucking sacred cow. At least that what I understood.

[Elfdart]

I think Sheepfucker has been watching 24 with his pants around his ankles. The only thing the rendition flights have accomplished so far is getting international warrants issued for the arrest of twenty or so CIA agents and the torture of a Canadian citizen named Maher Arar.

[CC]

I think what Shep is trying to say is that we should use these radical islamic fuckers' religion against them rather resorting to torture and maiming but it doesn't happen as religion is a fucking sacred cow. At least that what I understood.

I thought he was saying that we were resorting to torture out of public relations concerns with the "PC crowd" which is manifestly bizarre and ridiculous.

[Spice Runner]

I think what Shep is trying to say is that we should use these radical islamic fuckers' religion against them rather resorting to torture and maiming but it doesn't happen as religion is a fucking sacred cow. At least that what I understood.

I thought he was saying that we were resorting to torture out of public relations concerns with the "PC crowd" which is manifestly bizarre and ridiculous.

Well I didn't see him make any mention of torture or maiming in his post. However I may be wrong about what Shep meant. I'm curious to see what the Shep has to say about this.

[Durandal]

Basic interrogation 101; try to establish a rapport with the subject being interrogated; talk about anything, like the weather back home, where they're from, blah blah blah; get them talking, and slowly steer them onto the subject you want.

Of course, this only works if the subject is semi-cooperative, not shouting "DEATH INFIDEL PIGS, MOHAMMED DIRKA DIRKA JIHAD!"

And torture doesn't work at all, least of all when the subject thinks that enduring pain in this life means an even greater reward in the afterlife.

That's where the deceptive threats come in. Back then, you could use the Russians as a threat to make them start talking; but today we can't threaten to begin feeding them pork lard in their meals, or some silly thing that takes advantage of their religion, due to damn PCness.

As odd as it sounds, I actually agree with you. I don't give two shits if an interrogator pisses on the Qur'an in front of a Muslim inmate, secretly feeds him pork or whatever. Those are all psychological games that would be harmless to a random person but can be devastating to a devout religious fanatic. And frankly, I think that those techniques would stand to be demonstrably more effective than waterboarding or whatever other sadistic shit the CIA cooked up after consulting ex-KGB operatives.

[K. A. Pital]

The CIA harbored ex-Nazis and ran mind-control programs since the 1950s. I don't really believe that mind-breaking techniques, including illegal ones like torture, have not already been perfected by intelligence services in most countries. Of course, it doesn't work - but they all keep using it.

[Wicked Pilot]

A German interrogater once put an American pilot into a German fighter (no ammo and enough fuel for a pattern or two), and let him take it up for a test drive. After the flight he bragged endlessly and in very great detail about every which way his US built fighter was superior.

[Tiriol]

A German interrogater once put an American pilot into a German fighter (no ammo and enough fuel for a pattern or two), and let him take it up for a test drive. After the flight he bragged endlessly and in very great detail about every which way his US built fighter was superior.

Inventive interrogation. For some reason the phrase "That there is some INVENTIVE Superdickery" from the famed web page comes to my mind, really...