Who could beat Jedi/Sith easily?

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2007-10-08 07:22am

Usually on this board, Jedi/Sith usually come out on top of lots of discussions, even vs Superman. It seems the opinion is their almighty precognition would save them in almost any situation, but we've seen the precog definitely has flaws and it doesn't help to know the short term future if you can't prevent it what will happen

Some examples of when precog failed are Obi-wan and Darth Maul, he didn't predict Obi-Wan's leap from the pit that cost him his life and we've seen even normal non-force users can get the best of jedi, when Jango lassoed Obi-wan in AOTC on Kamino or the Jedi getting killed by Jango's blasters when jumped up near Count Dooku.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2007-10-08 08:08am

A lot of the tougher stuff in WH40K. Off the top of my head, probably any delta or gamma and up psyker could make mincemeat of a Jedi. In addition to a number of pre-cog type abilities themselves, their sheer destructive power is far more than what we've seen from most Sith, especially something like a Space Marine Librarian or an experienced Inquisitor (purge the witch and all that).

A high-end Space Marine, such as a Terminator, might have a shot at it (depending on a lot of factors, and I think we've discussed this before) but that's more arguable.

An Eldar Farseer is a no-brainer. Their precognition extends through millenia.

Perhaps a Necron Pariah, if we assume that things that affect psychic abilities also affect Force use. If not, then there's also Necron Lords and of course the avatars of the C'Tan.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-08 08:17am

The C'Tan would be just a little overkill I think

.

Some of the Lensman stuff might be nasty for them too. Someone like Kimball Kinnison could I'm pretty sure block a Jedi / Sith's telepathy, and even take over their mind (he's done it to other strong-willed people before, including several at once, although it was hard). Then there's wide-aperture beam weapons (how do you deflect that exactly?), and personal armour with inertialess generators on - meaning unless you could wedge him against a wall say, your lightsabre blade will just push him away.

I don't think there's much in the Skylark series that could do it though - that tended to focus more on ridiculously powerful starships than personal equipment. One thing that would work though would be a projection of someone: unless you can cut off the projection from its source, your lightsabre is useless, mind tricks / Force pushes etc won't work, but the projection can still talk, pick things up, kill you etc. However, it's not really personal combat - the guy controlling the projection might be lightyears away in a starship.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2007-10-08 08:22am

In my experience these kinds of threads with no power cap usually end up with people naming a bunch of ridiculously overpowered things that no one would ever seriously considering putting in a fight against the Jedi/Sith (or whatever the subject of the "what can beat this" thread).

I'm expecting someone to mention HGTTG stuff soon.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2007-10-08 08:29am

well the thing is that not all Jedi are alike, take an typical Padawan and you name countless power/fighters who defeat him/her, take a legendary Jedi/sith master like Obi-wan Kenobi or Palpatine and the list becomes alot shorter (though even then you don't need truly wankish powers and Jedi precog is far from 100% perfect).

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-10-08 08:34am

Jedi and Sith are pretty fearsome fighters, to be certain, but assuming we leave out the ridiculously wanked-out Jedi, we have plenty of instances where Jedi and Sith go down to ordinary mortals; Jango Fett has even killed one Jedi on-screen with contemptous ease, and ordinary CIS battle droids have reaped a fair tally of their own. HK-47 and Atton Rand also mention ways and methodologies for easily taking down Jedi in KOTORII. Relying on explosives or other AOE weapons works extremely well for taking down Jedi, along with chemical weapons or mines.

Really, anyone with weapons that would be hard to deflect with a lightsaber or direct telekinesis can take out most "ordinary" Jedi or Sith.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2007-10-08 09:44am

The Jedi all give them hemorrhagic aneurysms by separating the synapses of their parietal posterior medulla oblongatas in one second flat. No one has seen any Jedi do this, but I know. Superman, Space Marines, Satan, it doesn't matter. Jedi wins. Flawless Fatality.

*masturbates furiously*

Actually, General Grevious has killed some Jedi easily. He can crush their skulls.

But then, another Jedi made his eyes explode.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2007-10-08 10:46am

The Flash? Wouldn't he at top speed be able to overcome their precog and defeat a Jedi\Sith?

Block · Post by **Block** » 2007-10-08 10:54am

Enigma wrote:The Flash? Wouldn't he at top speed be able to overcome their precog and defeat a Jedi\Sith?

Wouldn't they just have to stick out their saber and he'd run into it at some point?

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2007-10-08 10:54am

Any one with a shotgun loaded with double 0 buck could theoretically beat a jedi. Specially if said jedi does not know what a shotgun is.. .. They raise saber to deflect only to stop part of the pattern.

Err yeah. Besides that I can make the debate that any slugthrower can beat a jedi as a lightsaber melts/vaporises? a metal slug rather than deflecting it. If it only melts it well..a molten metal slug would do far more damage, i think, than one as a solid.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-10-08 11:14am

Zwinmar wrote:Any one with a shotgun loaded with double 0 buck could theoretically beat a jedi. Specially if said jedi does not know what a shotgun is.. .. They raise saber to deflect only to stop part of the pattern.

Err yeah. Besides that I can make the debate that any slugthrower can beat a jedi as a lightsaber melts/vaporises? a metal slug rather than deflecting it. If it only melts it well..a molten metal slug would do far more damage, i think, than one as a solid.

The sandpeople on Tatooine used slugthrowers. Didn't seem to do them much good against Anakin, who simply Force-deflected the projectiles (and them) away, according to the novelization.

In general, I'd say that the best way to defeat a typical Jedi is to use mass area-effect firepower. They're very good at handling a single opponent or attacks coming from a single direction unless you catch them totally unawares (which is a rather unfair scenario; why don't they catch you unawares?).

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2007-10-08 11:18am

Personally I would go for a really big boom. I wouldnt mind trying a claymore mine out on a Jedi, theoretically, just to see if they would even survive it. But, then again that is in an ambush situtation, which is my prefered choice of situations to fight anyone.

Q.How would you beat them?
A. With a bat. When he's asleep.

Sorry can't remember whats that from or I would give my source

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2007-10-08 11:19am

**ghetto edit: I would probably just get owned if they caught me by suprise, in all honesty.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2007-10-08 12:05pm

If we're not going to just use horrendously overmatched forces, a team of Navy SEALs could probably take down a low- to mid-level jedi (not a master, obviously) through co-ordination, concentrated firepower, and the use of explosives or booby traps pretty easily (if the B-1s can do it...). Attack helicopters could gun down the same without too much effort.

Hm. A wide-beam phaser could probably take down a padawan or very low-power jedi, and if phasers can go on wide-beam vapourise (and there's nothing to contradict the dialogue that they can) then that would be just as good if not better than a flamethrower for taking down jedi short-range with ease.

Since Jango Fett managed to effortlessly kill one jedi, and fight a master jedi to a standstill, then in the right circumstances I imagine an Adeptus Astartes, or hell, even a squad of some Imperial Guard stormtroopers, could beat them. Same goes for other WH40K forces of similar competence.

Most fantasy dragons could toast a jedi with their breath weapon. And Sorcerors/Wizards often demonstrate far more firepower than the most powerful jedi. This would apply to Dnd/Prince of Nothing-style sorcerors. SoIaF sorcerors could probably use the murderous shadow technique to eliminate jedi without much of a problem.

Hrm. I don't know enough about Halo to comment, but Master Chief would have a good run at it, at least.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2007-10-08 12:42pm

Block wrote:
Enigma wrote:The Flash? Wouldn't he at top speed be able to overcome their precog and defeat a Jedi\Sith?
Wouldn't they just have to stick out their saber and he'd run into it at some point?

If he was going around them, but then again would they even have time to turn on their sabers before it gets knocked out of his\her hands? Wouldn't the Jedi\Sith be sluggish even to Flash since he can reach speeds of up to c?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-10-08 12:47pm

Enigma wrote: If he was going around them, but then again would they even have time to turn on their sabers before it gets knocked out of his\her hands? Wouldn't the Jedi\Sith be sluggish even to Flash since he can reach speeds of up to c?

Precog isn't of much help when the Flash can move at significant fractions of C. Or transfer the energy of incoming attacks into the Speed Force.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2007-10-08 01:20pm

General Zod wrote:
Enigma wrote: If he was going around them, but then again would they even have time to turn on their sabers before it gets knocked out of his\her hands? Wouldn't the Jedi\Sith be sluggish even to Flash since he can reach speeds of up to c?
Precog isn't of much help when the Flash can move at significant fractions of C. Or transfer the energy of incoming attacks into the Speed Force.

Good. We can add Flash to the list of Jedi\Sith slayers.

I still think that Superman could also defeat a Jedi\Sith.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2007-10-08 02:25pm

Dio Brando from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure could do it. I doubt any Jedi can deal with a time stop. ZA WARUDO!

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-08 03:16pm

We've see Lightsabers having difficulty cutting through a variety of materials, as well as ricochet off surfaces, so we do know that there's some degree of friction to keep someone from just slicing effortlessly through certain types of defenses.

Theoretically, someone with either a personal shield or strong enough armor who is also a skilled enough combatant should be able to do it straight up, even without any extra nonsense involved. No need to throw Superheroes at them. Their precog is a nice advantage, but there are limits to what you can do with early warning. If the opponent just outmatches the Jedi, then the Jedi should be going down. Sith are harder since they have other weapons besides Lightsabers, like lightning and such.

So I'm not positive a Jedi's lightsaber would effortlessly cleave through a Astartes Space Marine's armor. Given the kind of hardware they carry (exploding rocket-bullet guns), it's possible that a Jedi could find even your average Space Marine extremely difficult to handle.

Like was said, there's variations in degree of skill and levels of threat posed by various Jedi/Sith. But I don't think they're all that unstoppable--they're just perfectly adapted to their role in Star Wars.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2007-10-08 03:33pm

Spider Man, to any of them not strong enough to levitate him telekinetically ( they'll probably need to disable or block the webbing simultaneously ). He's very, very fast, has his own combat precog, and his strength & wall sticking limit the effectiveness of force pushes. And he doesn't has a weak will, either.

A master of temporal fugue from Creatures of Light and Darkness could probably take on many Jedi/Sith, even without superhuman powers ( which they tend to have ). Combat precog is going to have problems with someone who can appear behind you thirty seconds ago. And they can produce a large number of temporal clones of themselves, so we're talking about someone who's going to mob the Jedi in his own past, and killing any one of the alter-selves won't stop the rest.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-10-08 03:36pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:Spider Man, to any of them not strong enough to levitate him telekinetically ( they'll probably need to disable or block the webbing simultaneously ). He's very, very fast, has his own combat precog, and his strength & wall sticking limit the effectiveness of force pushes. And he doesn't has a weak will, either.

They could just crush his webshooters with TK. As far as levitating him, he's not any heavier than your ordinary human. There's no reason to believe he'd be immune to it. The only thing he really has in his advantage is super strength and agility, and his danger sense.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-10-08 03:49pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:If we're not going to just use horrendously overmatched forces, a team of Navy SEALs could probably take down a low- to mid-level jedi (not a master, obviously) through co-ordination, concentrated firepower, and the use of explosives or booby traps pretty easily (if the B-1s can do it...). Attack helicopters could gun down the same without too much effort.

Aside from the additional hardware point, the Jedi/Sith stand there and take it for no reason whatsoever?

Hm. A wide-beam phaser could probably take down a padawan or very low-power jedi, and if phasers can go on wide-beam vapourise (and there's nothing to contradict the dialogue that they can) then that would be just as good if not better than a flamethrower for taking down jedi short-range with ease.

Because Obi Wan and Anakin just were open mouth morons and just were utterly helpless without their respective masters, and the Padawan wouldn't use a TK push, am I right?

Since Jango Fett managed to effortlessly kill one jedi, and fight a master jedi to a standstill, then in the right circumstances I imagine an Adeptus Astartes, or hell, even a squad of some Imperial Guard stormtroopers, could beat them. Same goes for other WH40K forces of similar competence.

Because Jango is a Space Marine and didn't have the shroud of the Darkside, Obi Wan's arrogance and restriction to capture or Count Dooku against the second Jedi am I right?

Most fantasy dragons could toast a jedi with their breath weapon. And Sorcerors/Wizards often demonstrate far more firepower than the most powerful jedi. This would apply to Dnd/Prince of Nothing-style sorcerors. SoIaF sorcerors could probably use the murderous shadow technique to eliminate jedi without much of a problem.

This aside from your Space Marine is probably , and sadly the most intelligent one you've displayed.

Hrm. I don't know enough about Halo to comment, but Master Chief would have a good run at it, at least.

I didn't know MC had a TK shield?!

In the end, what disgusts me of the the topic isn't any love for Jedi/Sith but the complete ignorance that how powerful a precognitive Telekientic is(especially what we've seen them endure, take and throw at people).

Literally unless you are using high powered weaponry with an effective and large Area of Effect, a single being of any human level is either dead or not good enough.

That is why I hate seeing "I'll throw a regular human with a gimmick, he'll beat a Jedi...because he has (insert power).". And we think the Jedi/Sith is standing there, dumbfounded...why again.

So at least with most topics with a broad generalization, try harder and not what you personal wankfest is at the moment.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-10-08 04:12pm

I've heard of this 'Shroud of the Darkside' several times--can someone explain what it is? I've got to assume it's some sort of dark blanket that Palpatine can extend across areas of his influence to keep his baguys from being utterly dominated by the Jedi, but... is there a circumstance in the movies where we see the Jedi acting where there isn't such a Shroud?

Was it ever mentioned in the movies? I don't doubt GR's interpertation, but it's hard to come up with a legitimate 'vs' scenario if all we've seen in the movies are situations where the Jedi are handicapped, but never made mention of it to let me know. Also, do we ever see the Jedi actually toss people around? If that was the case, why wasn't Obi-Wan able to grab Jango, or mess with his Jetpack? The same shroud? Like I said, I'm not doubting the interpertation, I'm just trying to get an idea what limitations can be put on the Jedi.

I still think Space Marines would do a good job afterall, seeing as their standard pistols are what I'd call an effective AoE weapon, but if Jedi can easily rip things apart (like guns) but we've never observed this due to an omnipresent 'Shroud of the Darkside' in all the movies, then that makes things harder.

The big issue with Jedi TK and PreCog is that we so rarely see it in action. Vader and Luke both seemed pretty much 'in the moment' in their swordfight on the bridge, Maul didn't seem to see an incredibly obvious move, and we see some 'force push' going on but we never see people rip weapons apart, shred armor off someone, or fling people (or large objects) around in regular combat. We do see Palp throw large things around of course, but he's pretty much off the deep end of power level.

So can we get a better idea of what constitutes your average 'Jedi' for the purposes of this debate? If we're comparing our average Joe space mariens versus Obi-Wan and other Jedi Masters and Council Members, that may be a big issue. But aren't most Jedi at the cruddy ol' Padawan and Knight level, where they seem too not even be a match for a well built droid? Grevious, for example, certainly wasn't a Jedi, and he did pretty well.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-10-08 04:20pm

Covenant wrote:I've heard of this 'Shroud of the Darkside' several times--can someone explain what it is? I've got to assume it's some sort of dark blanket that Palpatine can extend across areas of his influence to keep his baguys from being utterly dominated by the Jedi, but... is there a circumstance in the movies where we see the Jedi acting where there isn't such a Shroud?

Obi-wan has the shroud lifted when he fights against General Grievous, which is clarified in the novelization.

Was it ever mentioned in the movies? I don't doubt GR's interpertation, but it's hard to come up with a legitimate 'vs' scenario if all we've seen in the movies are situations where the Jedi are handicapped, but never made mention of it to let me know. Also, do we ever see the Jedi actually toss people around? If that was the case, why wasn't Obi-Wan able to grab Jango, or mess with his Jetpack? The same shroud? Like I said, I'm not doubting the interpertation, I'm just trying to get an idea what limitations can be put on the Jedi.

Yoda mentions the Dark Side clouding his ability to foresee things several times in the movies iirc. So it was mentioned if not explicitly named.

The big issue with Jedi TK and PreCog is that we so rarely see it in action. Vader and Luke both seemed pretty much 'in the moment' in their swordfight on the bridge, Maul didn't seem to see an incredibly obvious move, and we see some 'force push' going on but we never see people rip weapons apart, shred armor off someone, or fling people (or large objects) around in regular combat. We do see Palp throw large things around of course, but he's pretty much off the deep end of power level.

Objects were flung around plenty when Dookoo went up against Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda in Episode 2.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-10-08 04:27pm

The Shroud does get mentioned by Yoda in the movie. Amazingly the novel for Revenge and the third movie easily demonstrate this. After Obi Wan and Anakin rescue Palpy...and get easily caught, Obi Wan mentions "We're smarter then this?!"

The novel expands that after they killed Dooku, Obi Wan felt the shroud retreat and was in full contact with the Force. Then when getting captured, he felt it return with vigor.

For the most part, it plays as a reason why the Jedi in the first three were hindered by some random stupidity that they should have handled with ease.

As for TK...Anakin's falling scene is insanely impressive, let alone a few other things even Vader and Luke does through the course of the duel in Cloud City. The fact they exert that much power on the small things and not injure themselves even are some of the impressive feats.

Like I said, I have no problem with a Space Marine doing so in full gear, because their lower limits are impressive in both endurance and weaponry. But just throwing out people who are most definitly human and just having the Jedi/Sith stand there dumbfounded is no different then thinking DBZ combat is realistic.