Ender wrote:Vader, who was trying to get a lock on another force user at the time? he could sense Luke's power, remember?
So you admit that a distracted Force user won't necessarily notice another enemy bearing down on him? You know, like a co-ordinated, multiple vector ambush by highly-trained military professionals?
Citing an untrained person as evidence that a trained person can't do something is valid now?
Fair enough. Conceded on that point.
Shroud of the Darkside mean much?
Considering that previously I've only heard it prevented the jedi from seeing Palpatine's machinations, and according to this thread it apparently also causes an I.Q. drop and dampens the skills of every jedi everywhere, I'll concede since it apparently makes every example of jedi power in the prequels irrelevent.
Luke, the barely trained non Jedi didn't do it, so we will discount the fact that we routinely see full jedi doing it?
'Barely trained'? He was already acknowledged as a jedi knight and only a short time later he defeated a Sith Lord in combat.
The shroud has never been defined, but keep with the whole "making up artificial restrictions thing"
Let me see if I get this straight - the shroud is a result of the return of the sith. HK-47 was killing people when he sith were around. But you insist there is no shroud.
Alright then, if it's never been defined, it can't exactly be used to defend any argument then, can it? If it might do this that, or the other thing, but maybe not, it kind of hamstrings any discussion of jedi limits, particularly if it (apparently) works whenever there are Sith operating in the galaxy, which would mean
the entire fucking timeframe of Star Wars. I mean, there were only two Sith around during Palpatine's rise to power. If this is the case, then I'll concede the argument, since any instance of jedi incompetence can be explained by the shroud and without it they could defeat Silver Age comic book heroes or something.
He was you mouth breather. Fuck, Obi-wan distracted him until his troops were in position, and then casually hurled him around.
I'm talking about the 5 jedi masters he slaughtered.
Vader did it to Han on Cloud City you fucking twit. And it is done routinely in the EU.
Yes, after letting Han shoot at him a couple times. And he's the only example in the movies of this happening, and in the EU, for every time the jedi do use this tactics, there's a half-dozen times they decide to slice 'n' dice instead.
So have you never encountered any of the EU, or are you just a liar? We see all of that. Sidious killed a squad of troops by giving them a brain hemorage. Mara Jade and Corran discussed assassinating Kyp by inching off veins in his brain.
So the most powerful Sith to ever exist did it, and then there's dialogue. Not proof that this is the fucking standard response for the average jedi in combat.
Name one.
The only one off the top of my head is Jango. Admittedly, circumstances helped him, so this is conceded until I can rack my brain for more.
Seeing as how you are out to deny what they do in the canon, we are at an impass.
I won't deny that once in a blue moon a jedi (usually a Sith, actually) with use their abilities to their full extent, but it is certainly not the normal reaction to mano-a-mano combat with other Force users. It only happens infrequently, so either 1. Normal jedi can't use it or 2. they don't. Either way the powers don't come into play, because we're not debating "Sidious versus x", we're debating "generic jedi versus x" and generic jedi die in pretty stupid ways.
Ghost Rider: Most of your points were covered in my rebuttal to Ender. Those that weren't will be responded to below.
Wow, because they wouldn't attack the ensign. Nice to know you are still typing this shit one handed.
Where the fuck did this 'ensign' come from? Since I stated anywhere in this thread that a redshirt could defeat a jedi. Oh wait, you're attacking points I never made!
Ah, so you want to demonstrate TK-47 isn't blustering about how he did it.
He has a motive to lie? What is it?
And oh yes, you don't actually refute anything...just go and try to move the goalposts by saying Obi Wan was humble.
Alright then, Obi Wan is arrogant. Is there evidence that he's an outlier as far as jedi arrogance is concerned?
Why look, MC will have surprise on his side!!!
jhesus fuck, you really being stupid or fanboyish, not really sure which.
By the way, tell me how does General Grievous and MC have even the same qualifications given MC armor, agility and weaponry is nothing compared to GG's?
Oh wait, you just wanted to provide a red herring.
Grievous' armor, agility and weaponry have no relevance to the fact that a TK shield is not required to kill a jedi, seeing as how he killed at least 5 masters, while your argument against MC was that he had no shield against telekinesis. So which argument is the real red herring?
Because in versus matches we determine what abilities they have not their inability to use them, or do you want to make them have writer's fiat as a weakness you fucking idiot.
Like how every argument about Star Trek ends in Federation victory because they
can use wide-beam kill phasers/ warp strafing/ deflector dish bullfuckery/ the Picard maneuver/ whatever? Oh wait. The fact that the Federation never uses these powers is proof enough that they are either a)unable or b)unwilling to use their technology to the extent that fans wank them out to. The same applies to jedi powers. Thier use of the full extent of TK and pre-cog is almost entirely limited to one-shots in the EU in special circumstances.
Wow, writer's fiat is a weakness?
Guess, you haven't read the whole board that this forum is attached to have you?
Let me make it clear, because I'll shove this into the Hall of Shame, because of morons like you, Mike long ago established that he wanted versus match ups based upon REPEATABLE POWERS. Not somehow the inability of one side. This is why writer's fiat and one shot weaponry are not use.
Because writer's fiat is completely beyond anything but speculation.
Because one shot are indeterminate on whether the power can reproduce the event..
Please continue on your spiel, if you want to get shoved you ignorant moron.
The systemic incompetence in WWI armies was not writer's fiat, nor is the Bush administration's, nor was Great Britain's refusal to drop mustard gas on Germany in WWII. The jedi, excepting a few outliers, usually by non-jedi Force users, are about as competent as Starfleet. Most of them time, they don't just crush their opponents' heart chambers or motherboards, or grab their weapons, or use their TK to fly. It is not writer's fiat if they have demonstratively and repeatedly shown that they do not use their TK and pre-cog to its full effect during combat.
Also, to be repeated; if it is true that the Shroud of the Dark Side indeed does weaken every jedi ability and make them more incompetent than they usually are, consider me conceded.
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