NASA chief: China will beat us back to the moon

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Sikon
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NASA chief: China will beat us back to the moon

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CNN wrote:NASA chief: China will beat us back to the moon

CAPE CANAVERAL, Florida (AP) -- The Soviets beat the United States at getting a satellite, and a man, into space. Now, the Chinese may get to the moon before the U.S. can make a return visit.

Fifty years after Sputnik became the world's first artificial satellite, a new race is under way with the finish line on the moon. NASA, the former lunar champion, already is predicting defeat.

"I personally believe that China will be back on the moon before we are," NASA Administrator Michael Griffin said in a low-key lecture in Washington two weeks ago, marking the space agency's 50th anniversary, still a year away.

"I think when that happens, Americans will not like it. But they will just have to not like it."

Griffin's candor startled many in the space community, but insiders acknowledge the reality. China has pulled off two manned spaceflights with its own rockets and is eager to head for the moon.

NASA has a 2020 deadline for returning Americans to the moon. China would like to beat that.

It has a probe poised for a launch to the moon, supposedly before year's end. The lunar orbiter is to be followed by a lander and then, by 2017, a robotic mission to return moon rocks. Whether China could land one of its "taikonauts" there before American astronauts arrive is uncertain.

The U.S. is "more technically advanced. We certainly could be back on the moon faster than the Chinese, but we don't have the political will and therefore the resources to do it," said Joan Johnson-Freese, head of the Naval War College's national security decision-making department.

Russia -- the early day winner with the launch of Sputnik on October 4, 1957, and the first spaceman, Yuri Gagarin, on April 12, 1961 -- is no longer the competitor it was under the Soviet Union banner.

Although Russia is a key player in the international space station, with its Soyuz rockets regularly ferrying crews and cargo, it's figuring to team up with the United States in the moon arena.

It was just four years ago that China became only the third country in the world to launch its own rockets with people on board. Now it is aiming to build its own space station to orbit Earth, as well as a mission to the moon in 10 to 15 years.

Unlike the intense, cash-heavy days of the late 1950s and 1960s, budget constraints have slowed NASA's previous rocket-fast pace. It will be 16 years from the time President Bush set the lunar goal in 2004 -- if NASA even gets to the moon by 2020.

That's twice as long as it took after President Kennedy issued the challenge in 1961; Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin fulfilled it in July 1969.

"Apollo was a Cold War program. It was as much a war-fighting program as any tank or plane," and both the U.S. and Soviet Union were starting from the same place, Johnson-Freese said. The Chinese, on the other hand, started halfway up the learning curve, she noted, having borrowed their spacecraft design from the Russians.

NASA insists it's not a race anymore, with grander, longer-range goals than Apollo's flags and footprints. Think lunar bases, with encapsulated minivans for transporting astronauts.

"The U.S. has to get over this feeling that it has to be a competition," said White House science adviser John Marburger.

Competition or no, the prize will encompass more than any lunar treasures.

"I think we will see, as we have seen with China's introductory manned space flights so far, we will see again that nations look up to nations that appear to be at the top of the technical pyramid and they want to do deals with those nations," Griffin said.

"That's one of the things that made us the world's greatest economic power. So I think we'll be reinstructed in that lesson in the coming years."
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Griffin could be right. The 1989 Space Exploration Initiative which planned lunar landings in 2003-2004 didn't proceed on schedule, and there may be potential for the current Space Exploration Program announced in 2004 to not obtain the 2020 lunar landing goal.

I don't think this alone would lead to enough international competition to have much of an effect, though. A future space weapons race might have more results if it occurred, as the last time the U.S. government seriously considered funding the development of heavy-lift launchers was the Star Wars program.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

What the Chinese really need to do is stir the US's shit up a bit, like putting a solid Satellite-killer in orbit, after landing on the moon. Or putting their own space station up.

In any case, I was kind of skeptical of the 2020 plan. 2020, unfortunately, is "somewhere out there" in American politics.
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Post by Straha »

Here's a question: Why should the U.S. care?

So what China's sending a man to the moon. Whoop-de-shit. Why should the U.S. send up another set of glorified rock collectors for an obscene price? Especially given NASA's track record with efficiency on manned ventures (I'm looking at you Space Shuttle and ISS.) If America really wants something up there send up probes, robots, build an automated base. Cheaper, quicker, smaller and safer. Let China try to relive the 60s...
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Post by lazerus »

Aaaaaargh! :banghead: :evil:

I know, it's not a competition anymore, China is not the new Russia, the cold war is over. That's not what pisses me off. The fact that we are *in* the situation at all is. We are the richest and most scientifically advanced nation on earth, we should NOT need twice as much time now to do what we did decades ago, much less be unable to beat China!

Of course, this is going to continue as long as the public keeps not giving a rats ass about space. :x
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Straha wrote:Here's a question: Why should the U.S. care?

So what China's sending a man to the moon. Whoop-de-shit. Why should the U.S. send up another set of glorified rock collectors for an obscene price? Especially given NASA's track record with efficiency on manned ventures (I'm looking at you Space Shuttle and ISS.) If America really wants something up there send up probes, robots, build an automated base. Cheaper, quicker, smaller and safer. Let China try to relive the 60s...
It's a very powerful form of symbolism on China's part, that they are the new vibrant power replacing the increasingly erratic, weakening United States (whether or not that true is not the question).

But aside from that, ultimately, if you think of the scale of decades or centuries, we will need the ability to conduct manned spaceflight. Simply letting it slide is a bad idea.

Add on that, of course, the fact that space is the ultimate high ground, and in spite of that nice treaty against space militarization, the temptation to put up a satellite-killer is high. God only knows the catastrophic effect something like that would have on the army of a major power nowadays.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

For China, it's just another chance to distract the populace with nationalism....
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Post by ray245 »

Better than the US having a need to find competition to do anything useful...
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Post by Pelranius »

To be honest, China getting on the moon isn't going to change the fact that we were there first.

Now if this could only get more NASA funding.
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Post by Straha »

Pelranius wrote: Now if this could only get more NASA funding.
NO! NO! GODS A THOUSAND TIMES NO!

They've had money. They've had more money than you could shake a stick at. They've spent fifty billion dollars on the ISS which gives us nothing. They spend four hundred and fifty million dollars a Space Shuttle shot so that an outdated piece of junk can go up into space and... do nothing of any value...

Instead of giving them even more money maybe we should stop wasting the money the way we are and focus it on intelligent projects that will give us usable scientific data for a a fraction of the price we pay. I.E. the two Mars rovers we have over there now, each of which cost less altogether than a single space shuttle shot. Or perhaps we could direct the money to something feasible, like an Asteroid shield which could be used to research satellite killer technology too.
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Post by Jadeite »

The best way to fix NASA would probably be to turn it into a military agency rather than a civilian one. At least then it'd have clear objectives and decent funding.
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Post by Temjin »

Jadeite wrote:The best way to fix NASA would probably be to turn it into a military agency rather than a civilian one. At least then it'd have clear objectives and decent funding.
I'm failing to see how turning NASA into a military agency would help. They could get clear objectives and more funding by the government giving NASA those things right now
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Post by ray245 »

Temjin wrote:
Jadeite wrote:The best way to fix NASA would probably be to turn it into a military agency rather than a civilian one. At least then it'd have clear objectives and decent funding.
I'm failing to see how turning NASA into a military agency would help. They could get clear objectives and more funding by the government giving NASA those things right now
NASA under military would well be mroe likely to built more 'anti-asteroids defense system' than a civilian one.

The stupid idea of no weapon in space is well slowing space research down.
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Post by Temjin »

ray245 wrote:NASA under military would well be mroe likely to built more 'anti-asteroids defense system' than a civilian one.
There's nothing stopping the military (that I know of) from contracting that out, and then asking NASA to send it up there.

Again, no need to change NASA into wing of the military. It doesn't really solve any problems, and may actually cause more.
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Post by PeZook »

Straha wrote: NO! NO! GODS A THOUSAND TIMES NO!

They've had money. They've had more money than you could shake a stick at. They've spent fifty billion dollars on the ISS which gives us nothing. They spend four hundred and fifty million dollars a Space Shuttle shot so that an outdated piece of junk can go up into space and... do nothing of any value...
No space station, ever, gave us anything substantial. Except, you know, precious data on the effect of long-term human habitation of space. Which is absolutely priceless if we are going to develop knowledge necessary to actually leave this rock at some time in the future.

And, of course, there's that little thing called experience in spacewalks, procedures for orbital construction and all that. Fifty billion over years is really pocket change compared to other stupid American enterprises. A nuclear aircraft carrier ends up costing about as much over its lifetime ; And you've got what, twelve of them?
Straha wrote:Instead of giving them even more money maybe we should stop wasting the money the way we are and focus it on intelligent projects that will give us usable scientific data for a a fraction of the price we pay. I.E. the two Mars rovers we have over there now, each of which cost less altogether than a single space shuttle shot. Or perhaps we could direct the money to something feasible, like an Asteroid shield which could be used to research satellite killer technology too.
How about a deep reform of NASA administration, something which all organizations should undergo from time to time, and letting them decide what to spend money on? Besides, it's not like NASA doesn't recognize the fact the Shuttle was a bad idea. Or did you miss the memo? The Shuttle fleet is going to be grounded in 2010, permanently. A new non-reusable lifter is in development right now, which will replace it. Funny, ain't it?

Also, I like how you presume that a manned moon landing is less feasible than an asteroid shield :D
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Post by Zixinus »

This is politics really. I recall that there was a rather sad story about how the Shuttle ended up being the replacement of the Dynasoar or whatever.

Personally, I would put the money on nuclear engines. Once we have the motor to properly pull the bi-plane, then we have truly invented flying.
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Post by Andrew_Fireborn »

The average person is never going to be interested in space flight until at least three generations have grown up with it, or it somehow becomes like the computer.

It doesn't help that modern NASA is generally viewed as a glorious fuck up.

The shuttles, as I heard somewhere I've sense forgotten, were only supposed to have an active duty life of 10 or so years. (Though I was also under the impression, up until about a year ago, that we only had three... and when the two broke up recently, I figured they'd finally have to build something else.)

I don't really care about the moon. The best thing we could really do with it is set up some kind of automated laser base up there to attempt to ward off space debris, or mine it for whatever ice & iron/metals it has... We'll loose it eventually though, but I don't think any plan can really be made on that time scale, we don't understand enough variables affecting other, more pertinant items (Like the ever-pending super disasters of Yellowstone, the central American Fault line, and a few others I probably don't know about.)

Now, if they were going to beat us to Mars, I might start caring.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Any reason why we should give a shit about China beating us back to the moon? Putting people on the moon is not and should not be a goal in and of its self, it’s what do after they land that matters, and the follow-up beyond that. We already won the first race for the sake of just doing it, and then we pissed away all the progress it could have led too.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

If China puts a man one the moon we should be the first to congratulate them in a most sincere manner, not run around pissy like because they managed to duplicate an effort we preformed four decades ago.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

It will be nice to set up an observatory on the moon.
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Post by PeZook »

Wicked Pilot wrote:If China puts a man one the moon we should be the first to congratulate them in a most sincere manner, not run around pissy like because they managed to duplicate an effort we preformed four decades ago.
That is the most sensible comment I've ever read on the issue.
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Post by Commander 598 »

You'll think differently when a Chinese mass driver hurls moon rocks at North America during the Chinese invasion.
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Post by Pelranius »

I'll believe that when I see it.

I'd be more worried about debris from unscheduled ASAT tests still.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

You'll think differently when a Chinese mass driver hurls moon rocks at North America during the Chinese invasion.
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